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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
On August 25 2011 19:36 tdt wrote: Well, you can just NP the SCV over and over again until it finishes the CC :pWould only really work with toss due to insta build. Some sweet BM though. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 25 2011 19:31 Treble557 wrote: Yeah.. But what could they really do for the Zerg otherwise besides the infestor that wouldn't cripple the race is the question that comes to mind then. Only thing I could think of really that'd make up for it even would be lowering costs more, fixing hydras, and 1 food on.. something. Then some form of real anti air unit IN the air, like how the devourer used to be in BW. Something that can handle the air battles of SC2 that isn't a slow piece of crap. :/ They'd really need to just re-do a LARGE portion of the race, and they said that they didn't wanna do any monsterous changes after beta, so.. Yeah. Infestors are what we get to equalize it, bad or not for the game. Bandaid fixes are fun, amarite? *edit* Btw, in that video, is it just me or did incontrol seem a bit defensive on the infestor issue? It kinda sounded like incontrol actually just doesn't agree with the way that protoss is ment to be played with the current meta game, and wants it to change. I'd like to see Lurker & defiler back in action.  Baring that would take major revisions of current units I don't want to speculate on. | ||
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OnlineHero
Denmark647 Posts
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Phlatline
Croatia176 Posts
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EneMal
United Kingdom78 Posts
Infestors are SO INSANELY needed for zerg to make them remotely playable, mostly because they are zergs only all-round unit that they can put in a composition and have some kind of anti air. Not to mention that all the other spellcasters hardcounter them as they are the only caster without an anti caster spell. | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2communitycup/b/293240992 infestors are strong but when countered you notice how much of a glass cannon they really are. No one here complaines about high templar killing up to 4 infestors (600 gas!) in a split second with feedback, everyone has accepted that a few DT/zealots can wreak havoc on your expos without you able to to much at all (and yes, kill the hatch too) chain fungal just punishes you when you move a small group of your army into the enemy. No zerg should be able to chain your main army with HT/colossus around since they get fedbacked/stormed/blinked upon/sniped/emped/siege shot/marauder assaulted so easily and the movement preventing effect actually is too small if you do not chain fungal, it will rarely allow your ultras to touch blink stalker if you fungal on max range and send the ultra at the same time | ||
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Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
When you look at the pre Infestor buff's every time a Zerg would ask for help you'ld have the other races postnig cliche'd comments about drinking tears and how players just had to get better, but subsequent to that one unit being buffed a little (half the stun, double the DPS, same damage, it's not really that huge) Zerg has found a core unit they can build around to carry them through the late game in a viable fashion and compete in the late game efficiently. The issue is, the Infestor buff, in my opinion, wasn't the entire problem fixed. Infestors fill that core unit point that other races have in their Siege Tanks and Collosus. A strong core unit that if managed properly demands a reaction and can anchor an army. The Infestor though, simply comes out too early for what it is. I think the underlying issue is that Zerg was (is?) missing a T2 unit that rounds out the mid game and scales appropriately with game time. So, I feel the Infestor should be bumped to T3 and *something* else should be added to T2 that better follows the progression of the game, and can actually add some more synergy to the T1/T2 army. I make no suggestion as to what that unit should be, frankly I'm not good enough to evaluate the whole game sufficiently to make that decision, but it feels like there's just a big hole in Zerg play that was plugged with the Infestor, but that needs properly working out. I don't think the unit itself is the problem, but the way it comes in to the battle. Edit: Also, I think Fungal working similarly to the Chains of Ice spell from WoW, with a severe slowing effect that gradually dissipates as the spell goes on might be a good compromise allowing more dynamic play without hurting the essence of the ability. | ||
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kiaer
Denmark7 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1438 Posts
On August 25 2011 19:21 tdt wrote: Imba is defined as a unit used in a disproportionate number of situations, aka the "go to unit" that marginalizes all other choices. Or alternatively a unit/tactic that takes low skill to use compared to skill to stop it. Based in that criteria infestor is imba. No way around that. Especially the way someone like Destiny plays all-infestor-all-the-time. Have even seen him take out 15 ultras with just infestors before now that you mention it. Whether it's needed due to Zerg's other deficiencies is another issue. But it's bad for the game as is. So stalkers are imba? Lets be honest, ITG, Inc was trashing destiny saying how he could beat much better players just because he used infestors. In reality, destiny is probably better then Inc (really what has he done lately?) and only beats players who don't prepare for or play against infestors. Basically, it's not hard to deflect infestors at all if you even try to do it. In fact, I think it's telling that Inc thinks that destiny is pretty bad. Why? cause he can't win tourneys etc. Why? Must be cause he is bad because he has those OP infestors right? No, it's really because infestors are NOT hard to beat if you know they are coming and prepare for them. (and really, why would you ever not prepare for them? all the other T2 options are shit // arn't immeduately game ending with an incorrect response) The reason Destiny doesn't win tournaments is because of an overreliance on infestors (which means people can metagame him) and that they are not actually hard to deflect (and his macro isn't amazing...). If infestors were really that powerful, then zerg would never lose and everybody would be using them. No offense, but I don't see any actual GOOD players complaining about infestors. | ||
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CluEleSs_UK
United Kingdom583 Posts
Zerg currently seem to spam investors, unlike HTs and ghosts, where you tend to make a limited number, and I don't feel that this is what blizzard intended as a spellcaster. | ||
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
But why didn't they complain about Plague in SC:BW? Or was there a period where so many people complained about it, similar to the infestors? Wasn't that stronger? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:15 SEA_GenesiS wrote: Im curious, a lot of people complain about the infestors. But why didn't they complain about Plague in SC:BW? Or was there a period where so many people complained about it, similar to the infestors? Wasn't that stronger? Defilers weren't really massed as a single unit. They were support. So didn't matter if you had 20 defilers plaguing around you couldn't kill anything without having support around them. It also didn't lock units in place so they could just retreat. Science Vessels were great too  | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:14 mcclurg wrote: I don't feel they're OP as such, but I do feel they're too strong too early. Nowadays if a Terran makes a 10min timing push, chances are one fungal will end it. They're so much easier to get than HTs and ghosts and feel like much less of an investment. I feel they need to remove the energy upgrade in the same way they did to HTs. Perhaps also nerf max energy to stop the infested Terran spam. Zerg currently seem to spam investors, unlike HTs and ghosts, where you tend to make a limited number, and I don't feel that this is what blizzard intended as a spellcaster. Uhh, almost never do zergs have infestors at the 10min mark vs terran. Maybe in about 5% of my games does that happen. As a terran i have no problem with infestors, i dont know how it is for protoss though. But terrans can just use ghosts and split units, i dont know why any terran would complain about infestors. People really exaggerate how good the infestor is. The only thing i dont like is when like 4 infestors just take down an expansion with infested terrans, especially in ZvZ, it seems really silly. | ||
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
On August 25 2011 17:45 Ethic wrote: A few games back some douche bag nueral'd my infestors then fungalled my army with my energy. What a douche. Haha oh man I'm LOLLING:p | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
As it is, the infestor I feel is way too much of a Swiss Army Knife kind of unit: It can do the roles of almost everything (drop prevention, eco/base harass, sniping, creating positioning for your army, huge AoE), it can basically do everything I think lots of people are getting close to the actual problem with infestors without realizing it. It has too much versatility. An infestor can: 1. Kill clumps of small units with fungal 2. Disable large powerful units by Neuraling them 3. Lock down fast units 4. Reveal invisible units 5. Harass mineral lines with 2 different spells 6. Take out large amounts of infrastructure with IT's insane DPS Also - - It can get into bases without the use of drops thanks to burrow movement - Only Neural requires research, but the fact that it counters large units with long build times makes the research time not too important. - Through the combination of Zerg larva mechanics and Infestor's energy upgrade, a zerg player can get 10 infestors simultaneously, all with the ability to fungal instantly. The infestor is not OP, however it is maybe a bit too versatile, which is why it sees as much use as it does, and why people complain about it so much. I've had the following idea forever, but i doubt it'll happen: + Show Spoiler [dumb idea] + Separate the Infestor into 2 different casters. Infestor A (current infestor model): Infested Terran, Neural Parasite, Explode (think a really slow SC1 Infested Terran), Infest Command Center/Nexus. Spawns a creep tumor and 2 infested terrans upon death. Infestor B: Ensnare, Fungal (larger radius, more damage, but over longer time, no hold, sorta like a plague that deals less total damage), [another spell?]. Would also be tier 2, but cost more. Slower build time? No energy upgrade. Can ensnare immediately though. | ||
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OnlineHero
Denmark647 Posts
On August 25 2011 19:47 OnlineHero wrote: I think infestors are fine. Yes, they are very strong, but I think it gets balanced out by the fact that it does not have any anti-caster spells like the ghost and HT. Just gonna add one more thing. Ghosts and HTs are still usefull after they run out of energy, while infestors are useless. You have to hide them for a long time, or simply suicide them to free up supply. Ghosts can still shoot (though not that great damage) and HTs can be morphed to archons. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 25 2011 20:18 Numy wrote: Defilers weren't really massed as a single unit. They were support. So didn't matter if you had 20 defilers plaguing around you couldn't kill anything without having support around them. It also didn't lock units in place so they could just retreat. Science Vessels were great too Defilers weren't massed because they had infinite energy thanks to consume. If they could only cast dark swarm or plague once every 3 minutes, then they would be massed more. A single defiler is stronger than 20 infestors ever will be. Defiler completely nullified a Terran without vessels going bio, and considering some Terrans don't even bother with ghosts to defeat infestors, it seems clear that the infestor doesn't really make ZvT imbalanced at all. People complain about 4 infestors with energy taking down a nexus, but can you imagine 12 zerglings and 1 defiler taking down a nexus with 12 cannons surrounding it? It took around 5 seconds for that nexus to die which meant you NEEDED AOE defence which wasn't static. OMG SHOCK HORROR YOU CAN'T MAKE 1 BALL AND A MOVE. The most powerful Protoss unit - the reaver- was used to defend these bases, because zerglings were too strong vs nexi. | ||
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WhiteNova
United States9 Posts
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xlep
Germany274 Posts
Even as a Zerg player I gotta admit that infestors are overpowered compared to most other units but right now the infestor is simply necessary. Zerg lacks the army strength and area control of Protoss and Terran, and due to the (compared to BW) smaller maps there's often no time to reproduce and gather enough army to stop a Terran Bio or Protoss Deathball push. Also Zerg is much less ressource efficient without the infestor and due to the maps (again compared to BW) it's much harder to control more mining expansions in the late game than in BW. I'm speaking from a high diamond point of view, so I won't pretend to understand the game on a pro-level, but right now, without any major unit revisions I simply can't imagine an infestor nerf (the 1.4 changes will probably be ok, but I believe that any major nerf would wreck the Zerg matchups). | ||
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Giantt
Bulgaria82 Posts
It was a huge nerf reducing the movement speed from 2.5 to 2.25 a couple of months ago and now dmg reduction seems like an attempt to put the unit out of use. Bluntly stated - I think that Zerg's mid-late game gets nerfed again because 2 base mass gate style and marine&tank attack move strats got too hard to execute. EDIT: About the theorycraft stating that infested terrans are supposed to annihilate all - it just does not work that way. It is the worst way to use your infestors' energy in combat and extremely inefficient in fighting any army. And the claims that 10 infestors with 200 energy could raze your base - well indeed that is possible. However if you allow your oponent to survive spending 2000 gas on something that he does not use for 3 minutes and dont build a simple cannon/turret/crawler at the entrance of your base - maybe you are just a worse player and he could have killed you with whatever he wished. | ||
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