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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Sanchonator
Australia490 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:36 DertoQq wrote: Lets give warp prism some aoe damages. 2 problems solves ! im sure having warp prisms dropping storm when you deploy them would be perfectly balanced :D @previous post: wouldnt the large number of TvTs explain the drop in numbers? or at least part of it | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Sadly this wouldn't even actually work though haha. Marines would just nomnom the WP. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:40 Aletheia27 wrote: Um... i don't know how to phrase this. But I personally think 1 gate FE is the best move here. So maybe instead of trying to "fix" toss builds to deal with 1-1-1, why not tailor a 1 gate FE to deal with 2 rax? If you correctly identify a 2 rax you can hold it efficiently with decent FF's and spending your chrono on the gateways, unless he pulls an absurd amount of SCVs. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:43 Blazinghand wrote: When we talk about 2 rax, are we saying 2 rax marine scv allin, or are there marauders with concussive as well? can I get a description of the build order? sorry ._. I think he means the 12/16 reactor/tech lab pressure. It usually has 2 marauders and concussive, along with a handful of marines and a couple of SCVs depending on how the guy wants to do it. It's designed to cancel the Nexus if the Protoss player does a particularly greedy expand. | ||
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FiNeSsEd-
Canada2 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:29 Blazinghand wrote: This might sound kinda dumb, but maybe a gas steal is the right move here? The Terran player will have to kill it to get access to a 2nd gas. Does this delay the push at all? I wonder if it's worth the 75 minerals in the early game to delay his gas by a 30 seconds or so. Has anyone used this / fought against this? A gas steal is ALWAYS worth it in a PvT whenever you have the opportunity. The 75 minerals will tell you how many marines they have (If they want to go 1-1-1 they can't just have 1 marine attacking the assimilator and if they do, you won't have to worry about cloak. Also, if the 2nd marine is delayed, He either went for a tech lab, or a reactor. Sometimes if they immediately send a marine to attack the gas, you can use your scouting probe to scout the add-ons on the barracks. Either way the terran loses out some gas which normally means you won't have to worry about cloak banshees, as it's just too much of an investment and tanks/seige are the priority for gas dump. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:40 Aletheia27 wrote: Um... i don't know how to phrase this. But I personally think 1 gate FE is the best move here. So maybe instead of trying to "fix" toss builds to deal with 1-1-1, why not tailor a 1 gate FE to deal with 2 rax? I have tried this already. But the 1 gate FE that can beat a 1-1-1 has much more economy than the 1 gate FE that can hold off 2 rax. The latter is down 5 probes at the time the nexus finishes, compared to the former. In order to beat a 1-1-1 all-in with 1 gate FE, you need to pray the 2 rax isn't coming and spend all chrono boosts on probes while not getting supply blocked. Whereas the 1 gate FE that can stop a 2 rax cuts probes and get supply blocked for a while in order to get more gates up earlier. | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:37 Blazinghand wrote: You have not done any research, have you? Let me show you something interesting, and open your mind about the state of code S: GSL July: Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 2 terran GSL May: Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 3 terran GSL March Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 3 terran It looks to me that Terran might have large numbers in the Ro16, but looking at the Ro8, it seems that these large numbers of terran are losing and it's equalizing usually to a 3/3/2 split of races in the Ro8. Prettttty normal. I left out the ST and WC in this analysis due to lack of a Code S. If you're going to cry "imbalance" based on tournament standings, do some in-depth research first-- sometimes these things can be deceiving, and there are hidden trends in the data. Why does terran have the numbers in Ro16? Why is it that terrans seem to be getting up to code A and then Code S around the same rate as the other 2 races are getting there put together? Then they are almost always in dominating numbers in both groups, and later stages. Why is that? Btw, July Code S Terrans just all-killed each other out of the tournament. Also, a big spokesperson for removing the blue flame upgrade, it´s going to show itself to be the biggest remaining imbalance in the game I think. Eventually at least. Also, talk about doing my homework: 50% of the players of this GSL were Terran as there were 32 of them in the 64 players of both Code A and Code S. Now...Last time I checked, 50% of Korean Pro´s did not play Terran, and just to clarify, these 50% of Terrans are moving up, Code S is getting stacked by Terrans, while the other races are losing representitives in Code A, those being replaced by...take a guess...Terrans  | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:44 w_Ender_w wrote: I think he means the 12/16 reactor/tech lab pressure. It usually has 2 marauders and concussive, along with a handful of marines and a couple of SCVs depending on how the guy wants to do it. It's designed to cancel the Nexus if the Protoss player does a particularly greedy expand. I meant this particular build. It's hard for me to identify with a lot of players here as my go to PvT build has almost always been 1 gate FE except for the occasional 2 gate robo and 1 gate stargate plays. But those were more...map specific. With 1 Gate FE, I've found I've almost always been able to handle the 12/16 pressure adequately with chronoed units and good ffs and positioning. But perhaps my opponents were not up to par. 650 masters. EDIT: @iamke55: basically yes. I pretty much agree completely. But I think those alterations in build are manageable with proper scouting. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:37 Blazinghand wrote: You have not done any research, have you? Let me show you something interesting, and open your mind about the state of code S: GSL July: Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 2 terran GSL May: Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 3 terran GSL March Ro16: 7 terran Ro8: 3 terran It looks to me that Terran might have large numbers in the Ro16, but looking at the Ro8, it seems that these large numbers of terran are losing and it's equalizing usually to a 3/3/2 split of races in the Ro8. Prettttty normal. I left out the ST and WC in this analysis due to lack of a Code S. If you're going to cry "imbalance" based on tournament standings, do some in-depth research first-- sometimes these things can be deceiving, and there are hidden trends in the data. That piece of data is more interesting than you let on. It means that there are consistently a lot of Terran players between the top 16 and the top 8. Is it just chance that so many Terrans are getting that high and then losing, or is there something about that precise tiering of skill that makes Terran strong? I'm going to posit two hypotheses to explain this: one, that Terran is capable of highly aggressive play that requires an opponent to be of absolutely top caliber to survive it, or two, that Terran's play is very inconsistent and players who get to the Ro16 have a very high chance of dropping out on account of their builds being countered. I don't have a lot of data to back these up, but they're something. | ||
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malaan
365 Posts
I really dont know how they will deal with this but perhaps a couple of suggestions.. the biggest issue is the raven. As many said before, if the raven gets sniped the rush is significantly easier to hold. - pdd made an upgrade? - pdd require more energy to launch / shoot missles so stalkers are not completely useless? - cloak banshee is kinda dumb as a unit anyway, i would not (as a terran player) mind seeing cloak go all together. - immortals do splash damage (maybe a bit too OP in other situations though) Im no pro but the above would help for sure, without damaging the use of ravens too much. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:48 Aletheia27 wrote: I meant this particular build. It's hard for me to identify with a lot of players here as my go to PvT build has almost always been 1 gate FE except for the occasional 2 gate robo and 1 gate stargate plays. But those were more...map specific. With 1 Gate FE, I've found I've almost always been able to handle the 12/16 pressure adequately with chronoed units and good ffs and positioning. But perhaps my opponents were not up to par. 650 masters. Well the nice thing about solid FFs is that even if the Terran has infinite APM he still can't micro his way over a forcefield. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:44 w_Ender_w wrote: I think he means the 12/16 reactor/tech lab pressure. It usually has 2 marauders and concussive, along with a handful of marines and a couple of SCVs depending on how the guy wants to do it. It's designed to cancel the Nexus if the Protoss player does a particularly greedy expand. On August 24 2011 04:45 Yaotzin wrote: Usually people mean 12/16 reactor/tech lab 2rax, sometimes with a few SCVs. It would be dumb of them to allin completely as you can then sac the expo and be fine anyway. Oh, lol I use this build as my standard TvP. 2 Rax Pressure Expo! It lets you scout and do fun army trading and sometime some minor damage against an aggressively expanding protoss, and gets fair number of marines in case of Void Rays. I could see how this could be dangerous for a 16-nexusing or 1gate eco-FEing protoss to deal with if they're made their build with a 1-1-1 in mind. On August 24 2011 04:47 n0btozz wrote: Why does terran have the numbers in Ro16? Why is it that terrans seem to be getting up to code A and then Code S around the same rate as the other 2 races are getting there put together? Then they are almost always in dominating numbers in both groups, and later stages. Why is that? Btw, July Code S Terrans just all-killed each other out of the tournament. Also, a big spokesperson for removing the blue flame upgrade, it´s going to show itself to be the biggest remaining imbalance in the game I think. Eventually at least. Also, talk about doing my homework: 50% of the players of this GSL were Terran as there were 32 of them in the 64 players of both Code A and Code S. Now...Last time I checked, 50% of Korean Pro´s did not play Terran...I guess, just maybe, there is another reason for that statistic... Actually, interestingly enough, historically 45-50% of GSL Code S has been terran all the way back through January I think. And, interestingly enough, it always equalizies by the time you get to the Ro8. This is because, I think, there are a lot of "mid-level" professional terran players who aren't as good as the gods (MC, Nestea) but are still extremely good. Players like NaDa come to mind... often... <3 Also, last time I checked, 50% of Korean Pros in GSL DO play Terran-- assuming your numbers are on the mark. On August 24 2011 04:48 Acritter wrote: That piece of data is more interesting than you let on. It means that there are consistently a lot of Terran players between the top 16 and the top 8. Is it just chance that so many Terrans are getting that high and then losing, or is there something about that precise tiering of skill that makes Terran strong? I'm going to posit two hypotheses to explain this: one, that Terran is capable of highly aggressive play that requires an opponent to be of absolutely top caliber to survive it, or two, that Terran's play is very inconsistent and players who get to the Ro16 have a very high chance of dropping out on account of their builds being countered. I don't have a lot of data to back these up, but they're something. I actually have a huge blog post in the work about this. It's basically the former; terran has a lot of allins, and unless you're like, NesTea or Losira or something it's hard to deal with. There are a lot of terran players who are great but not NesTier. | ||
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Doler
United States206 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:36 Sanchonator wrote: it was mentioned previously that stealing the 2nd gas doesnt delay the timing of the factory/starport.. but does delay/deter cloak slightly It perhaps doesn't delay but it does give you intel, which is perhaps even more important because that way you can go for a 1gate FE into super fast collosus because you know the 1/1/1 is coming and you're free to tech up without having to worry about early pressure | ||
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rdr
Sweden48 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On August 24 2011 04:49 malaan wrote: I feel sorry for blizzard if they try to fix this.. I just tried this build for the first time today and beat 4 protoss in a row without any of them even getting close to stopping it. I really dont know how they will deal with this but perhaps a couple of suggestions.. the biggest issue is the raven. As many said before, if the raven gets sniped the rush is significantly easier to hold. - pdd made an upgrade? - pdd require more energy to launch / shoot missles so stalkers are not completely useless? - cloak banshee is kinda dumb as a unit anyway, i would not (as a terran player) mind seeing cloak go all together. Im no pro but the above would help for sure, without damaging the use of ravens too much. Even if you remove the raven from the equation, there are versions of this that hit as hard, if not harder, and just go with tanks with siege, uncloaked banshees, and hella marines-- PDD may be part of the problem, but it's not the only problem. I'm not sure some bandaid-ey balance patch would actually help here-- it could make things worse in a different way. On August 24 2011 04:58 rdr wrote: How about a mass probe chargelot archon all in as an answer? I have done it when i have been contained by a terran. Part of the issue is that a lot of terran players are active with the initial banshee or two, and it's hard to deal with that sort of harass without dumping resources into a couple stalkers. | ||
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