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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:35 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:04 Aletheia27 wrote:
Rereading this thread, I think a lot of people have been derailed. The issue here is 1/1/1 in CLOSE POSITIONS. Specifically because in close positions, it's difficult to defend a 2 rax play from terran and so it's hard for one to gain the economic advantage necessary to beat the 1-1-1 without a somewhat risky ploy. But I still contend that with proper scouting, a 2 rax can be defended by a 1 gate FE on the toss part equalizing the matchup....
Or you can use the close positions to your advantage and all in. Either way... I feel like this thread has spiraled quite far. A lot of people are quoting statistics of terran beating protoss, but as far as I'm aware, most of those games are on larger maps and the losses aren't from the 1-1-1 but rather the difficult of the toss endgame dealing with emp. A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MATTER. I may be misinformed here...so if someone would correct me if I'm wrong, it would be much appreciated.
As far as the MC vs Puma game, in my mind, MC teched too quickly and lost to the second wave because of that.
also: @doler: 1 gate into super fast colossus I think would leave you incredibly vulnerable to a 1-1-1 play as your ground army would be very sparce and you most likely wouldn't have thermal lances by the timing. So what you're saying is. Terran is imbalanced in close positions and close positions are stupid... Now there's a shocker!
I think people are feeling these same concerns on maps with shorter rush distances and wider naturals, like Xel Naga Caverns; although it's not quite "Metalopolis close pos" tier rush distance, it's still hard to FF yourself in safely in the nat; but it's clearly not ONLY close positions that are causing the problem, though I doubt this is as much of an issue on, say, Tal'Darim or a long rush distance map.
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On August 24 2011 05:22 Blazinghand wrote:
There's been about 50% terrans in Code S since january. The number is not increasing. In January, March, and July there were 15 Terrans in Code S. In August there are 17. This doesn't seem like much of a trend to me.
EDIT: It's pretty clear to me, nobtozz, that you aren't actually engaging my arguments in a reasonable fashion or presenting evidence. You reference evidence that turns out to actually be supporting my argument, not yours, and you don't address me when I point this out. I'm done discussing this with you. Thanks for your time.
Wow, you manage to be rude, and wrong at the same time...amazing
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_July/Up_and_Down
Not a trend? Are you kidding me? Do I seriously need to fax the facts to you for you to see sense?
Code S/A January: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Sony_Ericsson_Global_StarCraft_II_League_January
Terrans are 14 in code S and 14 in Code A. So that´s 28/64 players
Code S/A Mars:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_2nd_Generation_Intel®_Core™_Global_StarCraft_II_League_March
Terrans are 15 in code S and 12 in Code A, so that´s 27/64 players
Code S/A May:
Terrans are 14 in code S and 13 in Code A, still 27/64 players
Code S/A July - coming off of dominating ownages in the Super tournament. Terran domination starts.
Terrans are up to 15 again in code S, 13 in Code A, 28/64 players
Code S/A August
Terrans are up to 17 in Code S and 15 in Code A, 32/64 players. Now, that is a big increase statistically, going from 43% highest, into 50% of all players. And let´s also look at how Code S is going to look next year:
4 Terrans in top 4 in Code A, so at least 1-2 more Terrans in Code S next season. Also, they dominated in numbers in getting into the Ro8.
So how do the Up/down matches look right now? Will Terrans be falling down from Code S in the same rate as they are going down from Code S, since as you say, they are so many....well no...
In fact, 3 protosses of the already few remaining in Code S, are going into the up/down matches from Code S, so you would guess that...6 terrans would be there? No sir, only 2 Terrans going down to the Up/down matches from Code S. And almost only Terrans going into it from Code A
So next season, we will not have less then 20 Terrans in Code S, even though things would go terribly for them. So yeah...you are the one with no backup in information, you are the one who´s talking bs. Man up and realize when you´re wrong.
Do you not see the trend my ign*ra*t friend? Try to think before you start talking shit again.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2011 02:21 Reborn8u wrote: Hopefully, I can add something constructive here. I did a little BO practicing to see what protoss could get to hit close to the 9 minute mark. I think a good name for this build would be the GERV build (there are enough self named builds lol) it stands for 1(G)ate (E)xpo (R)obo (V)oid. I've had solid success holding 1-1-1's with this style, keep in mind I'm platinum but I have been able to beat masters terrans with this build and play style. What a top pro can do with it is not for me to determine, obviously. But this could help the masses deal with 1-1-1 if executed properly. The build order is basically a 1 gate expand, add 2nd gate, robo, stargate. Produce a 1 stalker 1 zealot poke, then 2 sentries, then obs into nonstop crono'd immortals and then crono voids. The real strength of this is it's extreme flexibility. You can easily adapt this build in game or if you stick to it explicitly you will have a ton of options after the 9:30 mark if you survive the all in, which it is targeted at. It does fine vs bio too. Something that was brought up in the op was DPS issues, immortals, voids and zealots have great dps. Voids can smash banshees or tanks, immortals are great vs tanks as well and reduce banshee dmg to 10. Your probably thinking "What about the marines, you idiot" That's also dealt with using a few concepts. Guardian shield + FF's + the fact that you will have 2 immortals and 2 voids which can't all be target fired (especially when you break them up with FF), + you will have some zealots. The zealots mean that they will have to either stutter step to deal with the zealots and avoid friendly tank fire, or target fire the voids/immortals and watch their marines evaporate. Also, this combination can smash bunkers and you have enough FF to prevent repair. Like with any build it comes down to micro, retreating target fired units, good sentry usage, good target firing of your own, and trying to make the battle happen in a favorable area on the map. The tanks will always be in back, but the composition this build provides should be able to deal with that and you will have a nice re-enforce from 3 gates 1 robo and 1 stargate after the 9 minute mark. The last thing to keep in mind is PDD does not affect your voids,immortals,zealots or sentries. So it is probably a waste of gas on terrans part vs this composition. Banshees are probably the biggest threat, you need to kill off the marines/bunkers and have a void ray still standing or you will be in trouble. But worst case scenario, where you loose your voids and manage to kill the ground army will be that you're able to get phoenix and stalkers out to re-enforce and clean up banshees pretty fast. Enough preface here is the key timings. I tested the timings vs easy cpu, but I made sure and added some scout timings to make it somewhat realistic and give the build chances to make changes early. - included scout after gateway -1 stalker 1 zealot poke at 5:30 - warp completes at 6:05 - 2nd sentry done at 6:10 - nexus + 2nd gate done at 6:30 - Robo done at 6:40 (1st possible obs @7:10 with 1 crono) Take note of this first part because you have a 1 minute window from your poke to your nexus being done, you can change the build into a 3 gate robo, 2 gate colossus, or 4 gate if your scout sees too much bio for a 1-1-1. Flexibility is good  You can cancel the nexus and have plenty of FF's to buy time with 2 sentries out at 6:10 also. So any 3 rax nonsense, concussive rush or whatever else they may do you are safe against. -I cut probes at 7min mark, nonstop probe production before this (but only crono probes before cyber) - Stargate finishes @ 7:20 (1st void @8:30 and I didn't have the gas to start it immediately*) -3rd gate finishes @ 8:50 @ 9:15 I have 34 probes (3 geysers) Army = 2 sentry,2 voids, 2 immortals, 3 stalkers, 6 zealots These sentries have enough energy to make 1 guardian shield and 5ff I tried to keep in mind banshee harass, cloak, barracks rushes, a terran who expos. I think maybe 10 or 15 seconds could easily be shaved off of that 9:15 timing. After all I am platinum and my apm was in the 40's when I was testing this build order. I'd bet more could be shaved off if this was run through proper BO testing software. But I have never used one, so I will leave that to any community members with the knowledge to run it properly and the generous use of their time. The biggest issue I have in figuring this out is exactly what the terran will have when the attack hits around the 9 min mark, and how this timing will vary depending on their composition. As I said earlier, keep in mind you will have a world of options after this point though, you can make more obs, a prism,go colossus,more voids or immortals, phoenix, add twilight, add more gates and this build is easy to adapt before the 6:20 mark if needed. Come on guys, let's stop talking about changing the game and start trying to think our way out of this. Please, for the love of starcraft, don't say things like "you will die to x,y, or z" A big part of this build is giving you the flexibility to adapt to x,y or z. I'm adding a replay so you can see the exact build order for yourselves. It clearly needs some refinement (I don't like how much time there is between the stargate being done and my 1st void starting, maybe I need my 2nd gas earlier?), but that will only strengthen my argument to it's potential. If any higher level players can clean it up and show a better BO for this, please do so! To all the people who are going to try and tear it down, try it first, please. GERV build ftw Replay
On August 24 2011 02:24 somadbro wrote:this is very cool and good research. very valuable contribution. good stuff  I also like how you're not naming it after yourself, even though i would say you are probably the first to present this in the manner you have. unlike most people on TL who claim a long-used build as their own lololol
Sad part is, I went through the trouble and one of the first responses was "marines will destroy that" herp derp..... No they will not, they will evaporate. A single immortal or two or a single void or 2 will evaporate to marines true, but not 2 of each with guardian FF's and zealots in front. That's what having a composition does..... My post was put up 2 hours ago and it got 3 downloads. (first one was me making sure it worked) People would rather just shoot it down, argue imba, propose game changes, and whine. Rather than actually try it. I've been crushing terrans all day with this build and it's adaptations.
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I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins.
Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus.
What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out.
Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining.
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The void ray 3-gate all-in seams to work quite well if you go right away with only 1 void ray. I won 3 time in a row for now. (mid-master)
But i'm not sure if they did the correct build or if they were greedy on the banshees. At what time the first banshee comes out exactly so i can check out ?
On a unrelated note : One of the guy i beat told me something like "go play tetris you *** alliner, sc2 takes skill", i then check his match history and his last 5 games were 1-1-1 vs protoss, how ironical : D
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On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining.
This has been answered several times. There is a huge difference between a build easy to stop once scouted and a build where even scouted, you'll still most likely lose.
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On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining.
It's different because 1-1-1 is significantly harder for P to stop than for T to stop any P all-ins and 1-1-1 isn't even really an all-in.
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I wonder if the GSL looked to be filling up with terrans whether or not GOM would take steps somehow still broadcast protoss and zerg matches. Maybe they could use the handicap system built into the game?
It seems like GOM-TV risks losing around 2/3 of its viewership if the current balance trends continue. Not a lot of people will buy season tickets to watch GOM-TVT.
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On August 24 2011 05:35 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:04 Aletheia27 wrote:
Rereading this thread, I think a lot of people have been derailed. The issue here is 1/1/1 in CLOSE POSITIONS. Specifically because in close positions, it's difficult to defend a 2 rax play from terran and so it's hard for one to gain the economic advantage necessary to beat the 1-1-1 without a somewhat risky ploy. But I still contend that with proper scouting, a 2 rax can be defended by a 1 gate FE on the toss part equalizing the matchup....
Or you can use the close positions to your advantage and all in. Either way... I feel like this thread has spiraled quite far. A lot of people are quoting statistics of terran beating protoss, but as far as I'm aware, most of those games are on larger maps and the losses aren't from the 1-1-1 but rather the difficult of the toss endgame dealing with emp. A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MATTER. I may be misinformed here...so if someone would correct me if I'm wrong, it would be much appreciated.
As far as the MC vs Puma game, in my mind, MC teched too quickly and lost to the second wave because of that.
also: @doler: 1 gate into super fast colossus I think would leave you incredibly vulnerable to a 1-1-1 play as your ground army would be very sparce and you most likely wouldn't have thermal lances by the timing. So what you're saying is. Terran is imbalanced in close positions and close positions are stupid... Now there's a shocker!
Um... I was trying to portray the context of the dilema. On non-close positions or short rush distance maps, this problem shouldn't occur. So much of the data and sitings people are making are not particularly relevant. On larger maps, toss can hold with relative ease a 2 rax when going for a 1 gate FE. However in close positions this isn't the case and so 1-1-1 becomes a problem because while it would normally fail against a 1 gate FE, toss players are reluctant to 1 gate FE in close positions because of the possibility of a 2 rax expand. The dilema isn't that 1-1-1 is destroying protoss on everymap. It's that close positions makes other builds, that normally would beat a 1-1-1, riskier. However all of toss's "safe" builds fail to compete with the 1-1-1.
No where, did I mention the word imbalanced or that close positions are stupid in general. I'm merely stating the context from which we should work within. In other words, I'm saying there's a ton of misinformation being thrown around in this thread and we should try to focus on the actual problem of the 1-1-1. Which means understanding its context for starters.
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On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining.
+ Show Spoiler +I think that was more a case of Genius feeling like it was either him or Virus that was going out with cheese. That 3gate proxy VR crap was being stopped a long time ago.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:51 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining. This has been answered several times. There is a huge difference between a build easy to stop once scouted and a build where even scouted, you'll still most likely lose.
The big difference is that Terran scouting is much more solid earlier than Protoss scouting, due to hellions, scans, and even scout rax; and Protoss can't deny scout scvs until they have a stalker, whereas Terran can deny scout probes very quickly with just a marine or two. Terran has a much easier time of scouting an all-in coming, whereas Protoss has a period of little to no information between the end of probe scout and the beginning of observer scout; he has to rely on a stalker poke, and a bunker at the ramp is suspicious, but not confirmed. Is he bunkered up because he has only marines because he's doing a 1 rax FE? or because he's 1-1-1ing?
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On August 24 2011 05:51 galivet wrote:
I wonder if the GSL looked to be filling up with terrans whether or not GOM would take steps somehow still broadcast protoss and zerg matches. Maybe they could use the handicap system built into the game?
It seems like GOM-TV risks losing around 2/3 of its viewership if the current balance trends continue. Not a lot of people will buy season tickets to watch GOM-TVT.
They would never do such a thing. One way or another the problem will be fix, but its not the responsibility of GOM. either the players need to figure out builds or blizzard need to patch the game.
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On August 24 2011 05:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining. It's different because 1-1-1 is significantly harder for P to stop than for T to stop any P all-ins and 1-1-1 isn't even really an all-in.
How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM"
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I wonder if switching Warp Gate tech and Zealot Charge (Charge on Core WG on TC) would solve some of the 1-1-1 problems or other mass marines all ins (marines + tank etc).
Sure not having WG tech would hinder production and change quite a few things.
Moving WG down would also nerf 4Gate which I think is a good thing.
I don't know just throwing an idea out there I let you guys screaming at each other now :p
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:55 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:51 galivet wrote:
I wonder if the GSL looked to be filling up with terrans whether or not GOM would take steps somehow still broadcast protoss and zerg matches. Maybe they could use the handicap system built into the game?
It seems like GOM-TV risks losing around 2/3 of its viewership if the current balance trends continue. Not a lot of people will buy season tickets to watch GOM-TVT. They would never do such a thing. One way or another the problem will be fix, but its not the responsibility of GOM. either the players need to figure out builds or blizzard need to patch the game.
That's reasonable; I think it's also worth noting that in Code S, there have been like 15-16 terran players out of 32 all year this year, and that hasn't really changed-- I'm not sure why GomTV would need to take sudden action now, especially since things haven't really changed that much and the current defending champion is Zerg. The ball is in the court of the players to develop a new strategy, and mayyyyybe blizzard for a balance deal... but i mean it's also in the court of mapmakers to not make maps for GSL that favor this build. Close spawns are close spawns 
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Lol, notice how Blazinhand was all high and mighty with his answers, then I layed waste to him through solid numbers from code S/A that totally ruin his argument, and now he just ignores that. What a joke.
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On August 24 2011 06:00 n0btozz wrote:
Lol, notice how Blazinhand was all high and mighty with his answers, then I layed waste to him through solid numbers from code S/A that totally ruin his argument, and now he just ignores that. What a joke.
The real joke is how much blatant whining is going on in this thread. Ever since it began too.
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On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining.
+ Show Spoiler +Those allins weren't against a proper 1/1/1 both times, although I suppose that isn't too important. Second game virus does a 2 rax into cloak banshee. 2 factors here. He got neither stim nor a particularly fast starport for vikings. Simply a build order loss. Not much else to say, because with neither a viking or stim, a voidray allin will kill most players. To be honest I think Virus read the build wrong when he went in to scout the build. He saw an early 2gas, and when he went in again, he saw 2 more gates finishing. I think he possibly thought DT into 3gates+expo, which cloak banshees into raven really, really kills. I can't be sure though because I didn't catch how much energy was on the orbital.
3rd game I think it was mainly virus putting 4 depots behind his mineral line on metalopolis. Getting supply blocked for about a minute is going to get you killed against any almost any all-in. Genius didn't actually have that much left after the fight ended, so one more round of production could possibly have turned the tide
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Gateway Expand Robo Void ray sounds good. But when exactly do you scout? Do you poke with a stalker/zealot? It seems to me throwing down a stargate is quite a move and you must know for sure hes doing Marine Tank Banshee.
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On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining. It's different because 1-1-1 is significantly harder for P to stop than for T to stop any P all-ins and 1-1-1 isn't even really an all-in. How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM"
To be fair. I play both at a fairly high level. The issue isn't so mcuh how "hard" it is for toss or terran to deal with the various all-ins. The problem is that if terran scouts some sort of toss cheese, the response is usually pretty simple. Extra bunker/turret/unit placement/ premptive repairing scvs
From the toss perspective, there isn't a good reactive solution to a terran all in. Regardless of whether you scout it or not, toss is going to keep making his units and continue down his tech choice. Only if he scouts it significantly early will there be enough reactive time to make a tech switch.
But to be fair. No I don't think it's imba. I think toss will learn to adapt. (I rarely have trouble with it, but I'm not exactly playing in the gsl). I don't think this kind of build needs a patch to fix.
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