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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:19 galivet wrote:
To add to what I wrote above: If blizzard takes too long to develop a patch, it may be too late for GOM. Major network television shows in the U.S. get canceled after a couple of months of low viewership; the entertainment market is competitive. Once your viewers start slipping away to other interests, it's very hard to get them interested in you again. I'm sure that e-sports can survive a dry spell; the entire BW pro scene proves that. But I seriously doubt that e-sports will becomes as big as blizzard wants it to become if it suffers an early dry spell that dampens the enthusiasm of its early core of viewers.
I don't think that blizzard can afford to drag their feet and wait on metagame shifts that may or may not come when the future of the e-sports market is riding on how well the game retains fans in its critical first few years. They need to focus on keeping it entertaining and not alienating large swaths of their market.
That's reasonable; but GOM doesn't need to wait for blizzard. If this is really only a problem on close rush distance / close spawn maps, GOM can just use better maps or maps tailored for this build to be bad on them. Is it a good fix? maybe not, but it's a fix, and if it prevents GOM from going under they'll do it. I'm not concerned for GOM's financial security in this regard.
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I can't wait to hear a very detailed pro's opinion about this build tonight. Djwheat said that they would be talking about it a lot on inside the game.
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On August 24 2011 06:19 galivet wrote:
To add to what I wrote above: If blizzard takes too long to develop a patch, it may be too late for GOM. Major network television shows in the U.S. get canceled after a couple of months of low viewership; the entertainment market is competitive. Once your viewers start slipping away to other interests, it's very hard to get them interested in you again. I'm sure that e-sports can survive a dry spell; the entire BW pro scene proves that. But I seriously doubt that e-sports will becomes as big as blizzard wants it to become if it suffers an early dry spell that dampens the enthusiasm of its early core of viewers.
I don't think that blizzard can afford to drag their feet and wait on metagame shifts that may or may not come when the future of the e-sports market is riding on how well the game retains fans in its critical first few years. They need to focus on keeping it entertaining and not alienating large swaths of their market.
I am sure that if GOM has any fears of this happening they will voice their worries to Blizzard. They are big boys no need to worry about them.
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On August 24 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote:
I can't wait to hear a very detailed pro's opinion about this build tonight. Djwheat said that they would be talking about it a lot on inside the game.
There is a pretty detailed opinion by Liquid'Tyler earlier in this thread, if you are interested.
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Good point about the maps. I'll be interested to see if GOM introduces any new maps in September.
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On August 24 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote:
I can't wait to hear a very detailed pro's opinion about this build tonight. Djwheat said that they would be talking about it a lot on inside the game.
Idra will say: yet another reason Terran is imba
Incontrol will say: It's a very strong build/shift in the meta game and players are going to have to work hard to adapt/react
Painuser will simply agree and lend little to the conversation
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On August 24 2011 06:29 Officedrone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote:
I can't wait to hear a very detailed pro's opinion about this build tonight. Djwheat said that they would be talking about it a lot on inside the game. Idra will say: yet another reason Terran is imba Incontrol will say: It's a very strong build/shift in the meta game and players are going to have to work hard to adapt/react Painuser will simply agree and lend little to the convo
Don't you need to go and finish writing the scripts for the show? Or is that all.
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On August 24 2011 06:31 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:29 Officedrone wrote:On August 24 2011 06:26 Razuik wrote:
I can't wait to hear a very detailed pro's opinion about this build tonight. Djwheat said that they would be talking about it a lot on inside the game. Idra will say: yet another reason Terran is imba Incontrol will say: It's a very strong build/shift in the meta game and players are going to have to work hard to adapt/react Painuser will simply agree and lend little to the convo Don't you need to go and finish writing the scripts for the show? Or is that all.
oh I imagine the following will happen....be sure to print this off and you can have a drinking game tonight.
Idra and Incontrol will say how they hope to do better at Raleigh but how Koreans will still most likely dominate
They'll make comments about how Puma being in the house is beneficial for this week
Idra will most likely say how other races are dumb at some point
Painuser will give mediocre Terran advice
Someone will be dropped from the call
There you have it folks. Tonight's ITG in a nutshell.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:27 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:19 galivet wrote:
To add to what I wrote above: If blizzard takes too long to develop a patch, it may be too late for GOM. Major network television shows in the U.S. get canceled after a couple of months of low viewership; the entertainment market is competitive. Once your viewers start slipping away to other interests, it's very hard to get them interested in you again. I'm sure that e-sports can survive a dry spell; the entire BW pro scene proves that. But I seriously doubt that e-sports will becomes as big as blizzard wants it to become if it suffers an early dry spell that dampens the enthusiasm of its early core of viewers.
I don't think that blizzard can afford to drag their feet and wait on metagame shifts that may or may not come when the future of the e-sports market is riding on how well the game retains fans in its critical first few years. They need to focus on keeping it entertaining and not alienating large swaths of their market. I am sure that if GOM has any fears of this happening they will voice their worries to Blizzard. They are big boys no need to worry about them.
GOM aren't just big boys, they're adults. If they have fears about a metagame shift or imbalance that occurs on close positions on certain maps impacting their earnings, they'll just remove those maps and replace them with ones that balance the game. GOM doesn't need blizzard's help to deal with small metagame problems or weird builds that are strong in certain circumstances. Is there a build that's op on Antiga Shipyard? Simple, remove Antiga Shipyard and add Parnassus Plains or something else equally entertaining but more balanced. They could probably ask the community for balanced maps given the 1/1/1 and the community would provide, even!
A related question for protoss players: do you find this all-in holdable in certain positions, but not in others? What about in maps with smaller natural ramps like Shakuras, or longer rush distance, like Tal'Darim? What makes a map good or bad for defending 1/1/1 allin?
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I've basically skimmed through this thread so I don't know if this was already mentioned or not.
While I completely agree on the fast expansion as a counter (although still preferably a 1 gate than a 15 nexus one), the build order afterwards is what bugs me.
There are many things that make this build strong, and I'm not gonna get into detail for each one but just try to list them of the top of my head:
1) Terran has a superior economy on 1 base (courtesy of MULEs) = he can get stronger, more diverse shit that the Protoss can.
2) The defense that Terran has with bunkers and (at ~8 minutes i guess) with siege tanks is ridiculous, which discourages early all-ins against them like a 4gate (imo).
3) Unit composition: We are talking about 90 food at the 10 minute mark or even earlier. This means crapload of marines, 2-3 siege tanks with s.mode, 2-3 banshees (I'm thinking about the non cloak variation of this build) and 1 raven for the dreaded PDD.
Now to get to the point and make some suggestions. Some people say robo is the way (I'm not even going to consider 1 base collosus here because even if it holds, and that's not for sure, it will put you more behind than him) getting fast observer and scouting this build and getting some immortals. Some say stargate is the way due to phoenix being able to lift of the tanks and waste PDD's with their rapid fire.
What I've found that works for me is actually hallucination. I prefer mass gate play with zarchon and storm later rather than any other build anyway so this way I can rely on it afterwards. What I get is mass sentry while fast expanding, then mass zealot with a quick +1 armor and hallucination when on 2 bases. Then charge is done and the t.archives should be going down right as the 1/1/1 hits. What hallucination does for me is give me the scouting and high ground vision (when I retaliate) and also wastes charges on the PDD quickly, while still keeping me on my build order. Charge wrecks tanks and in combo with FF's, armor upgrade and guardian shield it destroys marines. Sentries can maybe take of the banshees but another wave of stalkers should seal the deal.
After the engagement you still can't kill him right away, so your goal is to stop/delay his expansion while you take your third for a slow but secure win.
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On August 24 2011 06:40 CikaZombi wrote:
What I've found that works for me is actually hallucination. I prefer mass gate play with zarchon and storm later rather than any other build anyway so this way I can rely on it afterwards. What I get is mass sentry while fast expanding, then mass zealot with a quick +1 armor and hallucination when on 2 bases. Then charge is done and the t.archives should be going down right as the 1/1/1 hits. What hallucination does for me is give me the scouting and high ground vision (when I retaliate) and also wastes charges on the PDD quickly, while still keeping me on my build order. Charge wrecks tanks and in combo with FF's, armor upgrade and guardian shield it destroys marines. Sentries can maybe take of the banshees but another wave of stalkers should seal the deal.
So what happens if the Terran does either: a) A cloak version with banshee harass first, or b) just standard banshee harassment before he moves out with the whole army? You will have Sentry/Zealot only, and Hallucination won't be able to scout a first banshee moves out.
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wow i can't believe people are still discussion this topic. this has been beaten to death.
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On August 24 2011 06:40 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:27 windsupernova wrote:On August 24 2011 06:19 galivet wrote:
To add to what I wrote above: If blizzard takes too long to develop a patch, it may be too late for GOM. Major network television shows in the U.S. get canceled after a couple of months of low viewership; the entertainment market is competitive. Once your viewers start slipping away to other interests, it's very hard to get them interested in you again. I'm sure that e-sports can survive a dry spell; the entire BW pro scene proves that. But I seriously doubt that e-sports will becomes as big as blizzard wants it to become if it suffers an early dry spell that dampens the enthusiasm of its early core of viewers.
I don't think that blizzard can afford to drag their feet and wait on metagame shifts that may or may not come when the future of the e-sports market is riding on how well the game retains fans in its critical first few years. They need to focus on keeping it entertaining and not alienating large swaths of their market. I am sure that if GOM has any fears of this happening they will voice their worries to Blizzard. They are big boys no need to worry about them. GOM aren't just big boys, they're adults. If they have fears about a metagame shift or imbalance that occurs on close positions on certain maps impacting their earnings, they'll just remove those maps and replace them with ones that balance the game. GOM doesn't need blizzard's help to deal with small metagame problems or weird builds that are strong in certain circumstances. Is there a build that's op on Antiga Shipyard? Simple, remove Antiga Shipyard and add Parnassus Plains or something else equally entertaining but more balanced. They could probably ask the community for balanced maps given the 1/1/1 and the community would provide, even! A related question for protoss players: do you find this all-in holdable in certain positions, but not in others? What about in maps with smaller natural ramps like Shakuras, or longer rush distance, like Tal'Darim? What makes a map good or bad for defending 1/1/1 allin?
Yeah man thats what I meant, I don't know if you agreed or disagreed with my post o_0
What I meant is that if things get to the point that GOMs viewership is threatened by hte Terran domination they have a lot of tolls to deal with it.
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The best counter unit to the T composition is the Collosus, works well against both tanks and the marines. Problem is that you need RANGE for the tanks and marines and you also need STALKERS with an OBS for the cloak banshees. That's a lot of gas you're forced to invest in, and you'll usually not have enough of one or the other.
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On August 24 2011 06:40 CikaZombi wrote:
I've basically skimmed through this thread so I don't know if this was already mentioned or not.
While I completely agree on the fast expansion as a counter (although still preferably a 1 gate than a 15 nexus one), the build order afterwards is what bugs me.
There are many things that make this build strong, and I'm not gonna get into detail for each one but just try to list them of the top of my head:
1) Terran has a superior economy on 1 base (courtesy of MULEs) = he can get stronger, more diverse shit that the Protoss can.
2) The defense that Terran has with bunkers and (at ~8 minutes i guess) with siege tanks is ridiculous, which discourages early all-ins against them like a 4gate (imo).
3) Unit composition: We are talking about 90 food at the 10 minute mark or even earlier. This means crapload of marines, 2-3 siege tanks with s.mode, 2-3 banshees (I'm thinking about the non cloak variation of this build) and 1 raven for the dreaded PDD.
Now to get to the point and make some suggestions. Some people say robo is the way (I'm not even going to consider 1 base collosus here because even if it holds, and that's not for sure, it will put you more behind than him) getting fast observer and scouting this build and getting some immortals. Some say stargate is the way due to phoenix being able to lift of the tanks and waste PDD's with their rapid fire.
What I've found that works for me is actually hallucination. I prefer mass gate play with zarchon and storm later rather than any other build anyway so this way I can rely on it afterwards. What I get is mass sentry while fast expanding, then mass zealot with a quick +1 armor and hallucination when on 2 bases. Then charge is done and the t.archives should be going down right as the 1/1/1 hits. What hallucination does for me is give me the scouting and high ground vision (when I retaliate) and also wastes charges on the PDD quickly, while still keeping me on my build order. Charge wrecks tanks and in combo with FF's, armor upgrade and guardian shield it destroys marines. Sentries can maybe take of the banshees but another wave of stalkers should seal the deal.
After the engagement you still can't kill him right away, so your goal is to stop/delay his expansion while you take your third for a slow but secure win.
What do you do if they don't get the raven but cloak instead besides GG with that build.
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On August 24 2011 06:40 Blazinghand wrote:
A related question for protoss players: do you find this all-in holdable in certain positions, but not in others? What about in maps with smaller natural ramps like Shakuras, or longer rush distance, like Tal'Darim? What makes a map good or bad for defending 1/1/1 allin?
Yes, on a map like Shakuras it's definitely easier to beat 1-1-1. (I don't think I have ever lost to it on this map yet).
The reason is that you can be greedy and do a 15nexus or a quick 1gate FE with chrono boost on probes without having to worry too much about an early marauder aggression because of the natural ramp. Moreover, the map is fairly big so its always nice to have a little more time to prepare ^^
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i dont mind the whine, the theory crafting, all the conversations but the use of word "all-in" on every fucking build is getting annoying.
definition of all-in is out of hand.
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On August 24 2011 06:13 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:08 LagT_T wrote:On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote:On August 24 2011 05:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote:I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler +Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining. It's different because 1-1-1 is significantly harder for P to stop than for T to stop any P all-ins and 1-1-1 isn't even really an all-in. How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM" The math regarding the economy of this opening in this matchup has already been discussed. Please refer to previous posts before posting retarded shit. Thank you very much. The math was done, but what is done on paper does not always reflect real in game scenarios. The MATH does not always take into account the MICRO ability of the defending protoss. I've posted about this before with no opposition, so please refer to my own previous posts before posting, please.
What does micro has to do with minerals mined per second?
Let me break down the problem for you, because it seems it is too hard for you to understand it all at once. Just follow the numbers:
1) SCVs + mules > CB + probes, economy-wise, during the early game.
2) Minerals mined per second translates into production capacity.
3) Because of 1) and 2) Terran 1/1/1 outproduces one basing Protoss.
4) The main DPS unit in this build is the marine, which costs only minerals.
5) The variety of support units (banshees, tanks, raven) in this build takes care of the Protoss responses to the marines.
6) Due to 3), 4) and 5), Terran will win after several waves of attack with even army trades because the economic advantage will turn into an army advantage.
7) Protoss fast expand builds counter 1/1/1, but are vulnerable to Terran early pressure.
8) Protoss can't scout in time to see if early pressure or 1/1/1 is coming.
See? The problem is not an unbeatable unit combination, it is an economy timing.
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On August 24 2011 06:54 jinorazi wrote:
i dont mind the whine, the theory crafting, all the conversations but the use of word "all-in" on every fucking build is getting annoying.
definition of all-in is out of hand.
So you would consider a build that pulls 15 scvs and gets TONS of tech on 1 base not an all-in?
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On August 24 2011 06:56 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:54 jinorazi wrote:
i dont mind the whine, the theory crafting, all the conversations but the use of word "all-in" on every fucking build is getting annoying.
definition of all-in is out of hand. So you would consider a build that pulls 15 scvs and gets TONS of tech on 1 base not an all-in?
It's not an all in until all 3 waves are done with IMO. You can kill every SCV and whole army and he'll be back 5 min later with same. Usually he does enough damage first time second wave kills.
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EPT
