EPTOn August 24 2011 06:02 Razuik wrote:
The real joke is how much blatant whining is going on in this thread. Ever since it began too.
The real joke is how much blatant whining is going on in this thread. Ever since it began too.
QFT
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 113
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
QFT | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:04 Aletheia27 wrote: To be fair. I play both at a fairly high level. The issue isn't so mcuh how "hard" it is for toss or terran to deal with the various all-ins. The problem is that if terran scouts some sort of toss cheese, the response is usually pretty simple. Extra bunker/turret/unit placement/ premptive repairing scvs From the toss perspective, there isn't a good reactive solution to a terran all in. Regardless of whether you scout it or not, toss is going to keep making his units and continue down his tech choice. Only if he scouts it significantly early will there be enough reactive time to make a tech switch. But to be fair. No I don't think it's imba. I think toss will learn to adapt. (I rarely have trouble with it, but I'm not exactly playing in the gsl). I don't think this kind of build needs a patch to fix. Your mind will change when you play against grandmaster terrans on the korean server. Anyone can stop a 1-1-1 all in from NA terran. | ||
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BlueyD
Canada437 Posts
I am by no means suggesting that the pros adopt these responses to the 3-1-1 they see, as I'm certain they've tried it already. The build has been known in Korea for a while, so I'm sure MC has practiced for hours against it. People point to the strange-looking protoss response in Puma vs MC game 3 and say this game shouldn't be taken into account due to MC trying to play gimmicky against the 3-1-1. I think that game is a valid source information: MC knew exactly what he was facing due to a stupid mistake by Puma (letting the probe in), and yet he went for 'gimmicks', which means he most likely hasn't found a solid way to deal with this push. No soft or hard counter, despite hours of practice against an already popular all-in. This situation feels a lot like the Cruncher build back before the infestor buff: It's not imbalanced in a way that is obvious to all, but it does feel like the terran has it a lot easier than the protoss. | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:58 Blazinghand wrote: That's reasonable; I think it's also worth noting that in Code S, there have been like 15-16 terran players out of 32 all year this year, and that hasn't really changed-- I'm not sure why GomTV would need to take sudden action now, especially since things haven't really changed that much and the current defending champion is Zerg. The ball is in the court of the players to develop a new strategy, and mayyyyybe blizzard for a balance deal... but i mean it's also in the court of mapmakers to not make maps for GSL that favor this build. Close spawns are close spawns  Wow, get the facts straight, from 14-17 Terrans out of 32 players. And next season (because of the ratio of racesin the UP/DOWN matches and the LOL that is going on in CodeA) there will be at the very least 20 terrans in Code S, that is if they lose as much as possible. Over 20 if they win some/lose some. Somehow you just don´t want to see the facts  Maybe because you are so terribly wrong and not man enough to admit when you are. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote: How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM" if you play vs Genius and he tells you "i'm going to void ray all-in you !", you'll most likely win easily. If you do the same with Puma and a 1-1-1, you'll probably lose. that's one of the difference, then there is all the scouting stuff someone explained a bit earlier. + read the OP. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote: How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM" The math regarding the economy of this opening in this matchup has already been discussed. Please refer to previous posts before posting retarded shit. Thank you very much. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote: How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM" It doesn't take high level play with both races to know it's not hard to select SCVs and right click on a bunker. | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:48 _Search_ wrote: I honestly don't see how the 1/1/1 all-in is any different than any of the Protoss all-ins. Example: + Show Spoiler + Virus all-ins Genius in yesterday's GSL, so Genius responds by double void-ray all-ining Virus. What it basically comes down to is the game is still being figured out, to the point where specific unit combinations with specific timings will work surprisingly well, until a defense is figured out. Is it op? Definitely. Is it imba? Not so much, cause both races can do it. SC2 is much faster and more efficient than BW so these builds are bound to arise, and honestly, Protoss has had these 1-base all-in builds for months, so they really shouldn't be complaining. don't compare 1/1/1 to void ray all ins. It's so much easier to make a mistake with void ray all ins and if it is scouted, it is incredibly beatable. If terrans ended up dealing with voidray all ins in 1/3 of there games they would find an incredibly easy response to stop it. There's pros that are having problems blind countering it. Not. The. Same. The problem with imbalance discussions is they're either filled with people that want to vent their rage of not finding solutions to beatable problems or the self righteous that pull examples outta their ass to feel superior to the whiners. Every once in awhile you'll get an actual thinker or someone that uses (real) statistics. props to them. It became incredibly clear that KA was op, and i think we're just about at that stage with this build. I've personally responded by just 1 gate expanding every game since 3 rax all ins are becoming more rare. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:56 Razuik wrote: How do you know this? Unless you play both at a high level and have experienced both sides, you cannot make a claim like this. How can you even say that 1-1-1 is not an all-in when you pull about 13 scvs with it? Oh, lemme guess your answer "MULES, MULES ARE THE PROBLEM" Well, I've never seen Terran have anywhere near this kind of trouble with a Protoss all-in since SC2 came out. That alone shows you that 1-1-1 is significantly harder to hold off when compared to any Protoss all-in because P all-ins are cheese where a 1-1-1 isn't. As for not being an all-in, just watch decent games. Hell, Puma JUST showed us how you can fail at your first 1-1-1 attack and then make a STRONGER one shortly afterwards. That's the definition of not being an all-in. | ||
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
in anycase, well if you only listen to the top players. Then stop wasting your time and play more instead of whining about 1-1-1. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:58 Blazinghand wrote: That's reasonable; I think it's also worth noting that in Code S, there have been like 15-16 terran players out of 32 all year this year, and that hasn't really changed-- I'm not sure why GomTV would need to take sudden action now, especially since things haven't really changed that much and the current defending champion is Zerg. The ball is in the court of the players to develop a new strategy, and mayyyyybe blizzard for a balance deal... but i mean it's also in the court of mapmakers to not make maps for GSL that favor this build. Close spawns are close spawns The problem is this: Let's say you're a zerg fan and you'll only watch matches where one player is zerg. You have far fewer matches of interest to you in the GSL than someone who is a terran fan and only watches matches where one player is terran. So terran fans end up getting a better deal out of a GOM season ticket because terrans play more matches overall than the other two races. I remember how pissed I was in the super tournament when I bought a season ticket early and there turned out to be very very few matches to watch that involved a protoss. After that I vowed to not buy a season ticket until the season finished, so I could see whether or not I would really get my money's worth of entertainment. TvT and TvZ hold no interest for me. If many people think this way then GOM's revenues will decline as their tournament lineup drifts more and more into a terran monoculture. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:08 LagT_T wrote: The math regarding the economy of this opening in this matchup has already been discussed. Please refer to previous posts before posting retarded shit. Thank you very much. The math was done, but what is done on paper does not always reflect real in game scenarios. The MATH does not always take into account the MICRO ability of the defending protoss. I've posted about this before with no opposition, so please refer to my own pervious posts before posting, please. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:58 Blazinghand wrote: That's reasonable; I think it's also worth noting that in Code S, there have been like 15-16 terran players out of 32 all year this year, and that hasn't really changed-- I'm not sure why GomTV would need to take sudden action now, especially since things haven't really changed that much and the current defending champion is Zerg. The ball is in the court of the players to develop a new strategy, and mayyyyybe blizzard for a balance deal... but i mean it's also in the court of mapmakers to not make maps for GSL that favor this build. Close spawns are close spawns Agreed, none of this is GOM's problem at all. If it gets so bad that GOM starts losing subscribers en masse due to poor games and domination of X race then there will be a patch anyway. | ||
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Razuik
United States409 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:08 iamke55 wrote: It doesn't take high level play with both races to know it's not hard to select SCVs and right click on a bunker. People act like the only protoss all-ins are flat out bunker busters. That's totally not true.. What about the small recent popularity of warpprism all-ins? Or even blink all-ins? | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:14 Razuik wrote: People act like the only protoss all-ins are flat out bunker busters. That's totally not true.. What about the small recent popularity of warpprism all-ins? Or even blink all-ins? You mean builds that are hard-countered by most standard terran openers? I can only recall one warp prism all-in and that was White-Ra vs Select on close air metalopolis which Select utterly smashed with scvs and a handful of barracks units. I don't think I've seen more than a couple successful blink all-ins vs. terran that weren't on Tal'Darim. These are outlier strats that rely heavily on the element of surprise and thus are not at all analogous to 1/1/1 which definitely does not. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
I don't think that blizzard can afford to drag their feet and wait on metagame shifts that may or may not come when the future of the e-sports market is riding on how well the game retains fans in its critical first few years. They need to focus on keeping it entertaining and not alienating large swaths of their market. | ||
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SxYSpAz
United States1451 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:14 Razuik wrote: People act like the only protoss all-ins are flat out bunker busters. That's totally not true.. What about the small recent popularity of warpprism all-ins? Or even blink all-ins? i haven't fooled around with blink all-ins to know how powerful they are, but the thing is. this is a popular build that still rolls protoss. I think that if any of those toss all-ins were actually popular, they'd get dismantled easy | ||
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Officedrone
Canada70 Posts
On August 23 2011 17:07 MarKeD wrote: Do you just see that there is a balance complaint and post a snide comment? Maybe you should investigate and see if people actually have a point instead of leaving ignorant statements. This build hasn't just found success in one tournament, and people have been complaining about it's difficulty to defend for quite a while now. No...I see people whining and crying about yet another build because "it won the tournament". Remember last month's whine-fest? Oh right....people stopped complaining about it because, instead of crying on forums, they figured out a way to beat it. I have no idea why this thread is still alive. Typically the mods are better than this and know when something is just a QQ-fest. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 24 2011 06:14 Cyrak wrote: Agreed, none of this is GOM's problem at all. If it gets so bad that GOM starts losing subscribers en masse due to poor games and domination of X race then there will be a patch anyway. On August 24 2011 06:11 galivet wrote: The problem is this: Let's say you're a zerg fan and you'll only watch matches where one player is zerg. You have far fewer matches of interest to you in the GSL than someone who is a terran fan and only watches matches where one player is terran. So terran fans end up getting a better deal out of a GOM season ticket because terrans play more matches overall than the other two races. I remember how pissed I was in the super tournament when I bought a season ticket early and there turned out to be very very few matches to watch that involved a protoss. After that I vowed to not buy a season ticket until the season finished, so I could see whether or not I would really get my money's worth of entertainment. TvT and TvZ hold no interest for me. If many people think this way then GOM's revenues will decline as their tournament lineup drifts more and more into a terran monoculture. I mean, it's not that there's nothing GOM can do about this btw; if this DOES turn out to be some sort of major imbalance, GOM can just use different maps that don't allow this kind of play to be successful. That being said, I think it's true that a Zerg player who only wants to watch Zerg games (or even moreso, a protoss player who only wants to watch protoss games) could be disappointing at times in the number of games available. Maybe in that case, as an entertainment group GOM could make the decisions to change the map pool. I'm sure they wouldn't let it come to that though as they want to retain viewers. Also, I think it's again worth noting that there's no new resurgence in terran monoculture in Code S; in the Ro32 there were 17 terrans instead of the more traditional 15, but this feels like more of a blip than a trend-- though we'll have to see the result of this season's up/downs, which has a lot of terran; though it's a tough up/down this season too with Leenock MC, Alicia, and Losira who will probably take up most of the slots for Code S. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
The only proper 1-1-1 is when a Protoss loses! Stop trying to give counterexamples! Also all pros that disagree with my worldview are worse than the pros that agree with me! Seriously guys, try to find something that works for you(for those who actually ladder) or wait until some pro-Blizzard figure something out. There is 0 chance that Blizzard is not aware of this, but as proven in the past they rarely change stuff based on threads like this. Discuss ideas on how to beat this,(personally I agree with Tyler in that a 1 Gate Robo build gives you info early enough to prepare) but don´t engage into pointless drivel like just trying to shoot down ideas based on what you think. | ||
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