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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 24 2011 03:02 latan wrote:
this reminds me of when some people (mainly idra and his fanboys) claimed that 14 hatch was the proper response to a 2rax build.
And Ret and Machine. At that time, it was the best discovered way of dealing with the new problem that was 2 rax. Strategies come and go, and at that time hatch first was the best they knew. Stop being so fucking condescending.
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GSL today. Vrirus vs Genius.
1: One base all in vs expand.
2: One base all in vs One base all in.
3: Expand vs proxy void ray.
I love watching these because they are dominating the match up. Every protoss feels like they can't expand, so we just get builds from the beta.
Seriously, balance be damned, this build sucks for the match up. I hope someone figures it out or blizzard feels the need to nerf it. I dont really care which.
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It's more that the response has to come exceedingly early. For most allins, you only need, like, a minute at most to "prepare" and you'll crush it np. The only way to prepare for a 1/1/1 is to expand super early.
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On August 24 2011 03:16 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:13 DertoQq wrote:On August 24 2011 03:10 khaosis wrote:
The 1/1/1, like any other build, is perfectly counterable. It just requires a hell of a good counter. Would you mind telling us what is this perfect counter then ? Because the scouting part isn't really a problem for anyone. Per the OP -- scouting is an issue: Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
"Considering that Terran does an 1/1/1 push on short rush distance maps, you don't really have to worry about 1/1/1 on Taldarim, Terminus and others. But on maps like Antiga Shipyard, Protoss players need to think whether the Terran will do 1/1/1 or not to hold 1/1/1 off you need to take an expo ASAP but Terran could always fake making it seem like 1/1/1 by hiding marauders and do a 2 rax expo to cancel the Nexus"
"People often forget that there are two hidden resources in Starcraft which are time and information. Protoss's viable way of get that 'information resource' is by 'consuming time' to make robotics or upgrade hallucination but by the scouting is over - it's late to prepare for 1/1/1. Protoss is forced to have a guessing game at the start on certain maps"
If I only lose when my opponent is faking/hiding marauders and stuff, i'll be fine, because it would be like a standard all-in. For now, in the actual state of things, we are yet to find a "perfect counter".
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On August 24 2011 03:05 NecrosTheSecond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:00 Vlare wrote:On August 24 2011 02:52 Alejandrisha wrote:
I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip.
The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo Here's one I recently encountered. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/176149-1v1-terran-protoss-nerazim-cryptI don't know the quality of his 111. Looks like he cut a raven, I don't think it would have mattered all things considered. But I do hold it VERY easilly. Again, I am no korean pro. I don't get GMs very often as I tanked my MMR recently experimenting with builds, but this is mid-high masters MMR, and I do not play perfect. too crappy version from his side tbh
Sorry to hear, if I find a better executed one I'll upload.
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The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1
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On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1
Yah this is the choice facing pro players.
Or allin him first :p
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On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1
Then players are like "fuck it" and go void ray all-in : D
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On August 24 2011 03:08 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:02 latan wrote:
this reminds me of when some people (mainly idra and his fanboys) claimed that 14 hatch was the proper response to a 2rax build. By the time the all-in come, you would have way more money if you did expand than if you didn't. which wasn't the case with the 14 hatch. Give me 1 good reason not to expand ?
well if it's true that the expansion has payed for itself both in army supply count and income by the time the push comes, then yeah it's a no brainer. not sure about the army supply part tho.
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On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1
1gate expo can hold bio on certain maps with FF. It just depends on how Protoss follows up and how much T commits to the bio. You can't make generic statements like this.
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On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1
This is correct. The problem that faces P players is finding an opener that is safe against 12/16 reactor tech lab 2 rax as well as economical to have enough stuff to fend off 1/1/1. 1 Gate FE with 2 gasses seems to be the answer if you have really good FFs
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Well yes it is map dependent as well. Shakuras need not apply to the "1/1/1 is broken" club.
I don't think having smallish ramps on every map at the nat is a solution though..
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On August 24 2011 03:26 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1 This is correct. The problem that faces P players is finding an opener that is safe against 12/16 reactor tech lab 2 rax as well as economical to have enough stuff to fend off 1/1/1. 1 Gate FE with 2 gasses seems to be the answer if you have really good FFs
This. And while on some maps it is more difficult than others, it can be done. The only real issue is you have to be CERTAIN he is going bio and or the mass sentry may delay your robo too much.
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On August 24 2011 03:27 Yaotzin wrote:
Well yes it is map dependent as well. Shakuras need not apply to the "1/1/1 is broken" club.
I don't think having smallish ramps on every map at the nat is a solution though..
Actually, I don't think the power of the 1/1/1 is very map dependent. I think it's weaker on shakuras just because you can be greedier with your 1gate fe because FFs are more efficient against 2 rax so you will inherently have more stuff to deal with the 1/1/1 later. Think about it... xD
Edit: Think of this in terms of a baseball pitcher. If you have an OK fastball but a DISGUSTING change up, you can make your fastball look DISGUSTING by following it with something offspeed, or simply presenting the threat of it. If 2 rax is strong on a map, it means 1/1/1 is strong on that map regardless of terrain simply because you have to take into account the strength of 2 rax on that map
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On August 24 2011 03:26 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:23 Whalecore wrote:
The way I see it atm:
Protoss is too greedy (1 gate expo or 15 nexus): Kill him with bio
Protoss is not greedy enough (3 gate expo or robo expo): Kill him with 1-1-1 This is correct. The problem that faces P players is finding an opener that is safe against 12/16 reactor tech lab 2 rax as well as economical to have enough stuff to fend off 1/1/1. 1 Gate FE with 2 gasses seems to be the answer if you have really good FFs
I basically agree with this. 1 Gate FE is the most solid opening in my experience against both 1-1-1 and 2 rax. If you time the gateways properly and chrono units you're safe from bio pressure if you have good FFs.
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On August 24 2011 03:29 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:27 Yaotzin wrote:
Well yes it is map dependent as well. Shakuras need not apply to the "1/1/1 is broken" club.
I don't think having smallish ramps on every map at the nat is a solution though.. Actually, I don't think the power of the 1/1/1 is very map dependent. I think it's weaker on shakuras just because you can be greedier with your 1gate fe because FFs are more efficient against 2 rax so you will inherently have more stuff to deal with the 1/1/1 later. Think about it... xD
Exactly, that's what I meant. On a map with an easily defended natural you can take that "be too greedy" option mentioned, but still defend it against bio.
Xel'naga though...godly forcefields or go home :/
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2011 03:16 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:10 khaosis wrote:
It's an interesting concept, but as the metagame is always shifting, I'm sure there will be strats by next month which can accurately bust the 1/1/1. Of course, it's up to the protoss to have good scouting and awareness to prevent any other types of pushes. The 1/1/1, like any other build, is perfectly counterable. It just requires a hell of a good counter. Thanks for being so specific O_O
I would think you know your own teamates build that counters the 1/1/1 rather handily.
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On August 24 2011 02:58 jackalope1234 wrote:
you guys realize someone made a build to counter this right? I've won everygame vs 1/1/1 now and its not all in and most times they dont even get the chance to move out. I basically have higher level tech more econ and can still kill him.
Really? Sounds interesting. Maybe you should give MC some lessons.
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so basically...
gosu FFs or die?
that seems like a good answer for a race centered around FFs lol.
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On August 24 2011 03:38 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:58 jackalope1234 wrote:
you guys realize someone made a build to counter this right? I've won everygame vs 1/1/1 now and its not all in and most times they dont even get the chance to move out. I basically have higher level tech more econ and can still kill him. Really? Sounds interesting. Maybe you should give MC some lessons.
Instead of just saying that, could you actually give us the build/link ?
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EPT
