EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 106
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
Lol, I'm not willing to give up yet. It's becoming impossibly hard to convince people otherwise when Artosis is wrong too. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:50 QTIP. wrote: He's trying to cite Artosis' hinting that the solution to dealing with the 1-1-1 is for a Protoss to 1-base himself. In other words - Protoss being too greedy. Wolf has also expressed similar opinions. He suggested a safe 3gate expand, which is even worse than a 1 base. Artosis is really wrong on that point. Players are doing 15nexus/1gate FE to counter 1-1-1, not to be greedy. The way Artosis describe it, the players are ignorant, are playing risky and are hoping for the terran not to react. But the truth is that they perfectly know what's going on and what's going to happen. Artosis is highly underestimating the players if you ask me ^^ | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:52 Alejandrisha wrote: I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip. The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo Here's one I recently encountered. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/176149-1v1-terran-protoss-nerazim-crypt I don't know the quality of his 111. Looks like he cut a raven, I don't think it would have mattered all things considered. But I do hold it VERY easilly. Again, I am no korean pro. I don't get GMs very often as I tanked my MMR recently experimenting with builds, but this is mid-high masters MMR, and I do not play perfect. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:00 Alejandrisha wrote: Well at first I thought that artosis was only referring to going colossus against the composition, which I kind of agree with. But not against this composition on 1 base. On 2 bases, sure, go colossus because you can afford it. 1 base? Absolutely not. I don't know how he ever thought that was a good response :/ Well depends on the composition...if they're banshee heavy your collo will do little more than make pretty explosions as they fall over and die :/ this reminds me of when some people (mainly idra and his fanboys) claimed that 14 hatch was the proper response to a 2rax build. The comparison has been brought up before. The difference is simple: 14 hatch only offers...unclear advantages. More larvae, and creep for a spine. OTOH, FEing against the 1/1/1 is just a no-brainer. The expansion pays for itself before their attack can come. Why on earth wouldn't you FE in those conditions?! | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:00 Vlare wrote: Here's one I recently encountered. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/176149-1v1-terran-protoss-nerazim-crypt I don't know the quality of his 111. Looks like he cut a raven, I don't think it would have mattered all things considered. But I do hold it VERY easilly. Again, I am no korean pro. I don't get GMs very often as I tanked my MMR recently experimenting with builds, but this is mid-high masters MMR, and I do not play perfect. Unfortunately i don't think he pulled the build off well enough for this to tell me much  | ||
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NecrosTheSecond
Denmark116 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:00 Vlare wrote: Here's one I recently encountered. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/176149-1v1-terran-protoss-nerazim-crypt I don't know the quality of his 111. Looks like he cut a raven, I don't think it would have mattered all things considered. But I do hold it VERY easilly. Again, I am no korean pro. I don't get GMs very often as I tanked my MMR recently experimenting with builds, but this is mid-high masters MMR, and I do not play perfect. too crappy version from his side tbh | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:02 latan wrote: this reminds me of when some people (mainly idra and his fanboys) claimed that 14 hatch was the proper response to a 2rax build. By the time the all-in come, you would have way more money if you did expand than if you didn't. which wasn't the case with the 14 hatch. Give me 1 good reason not to expand ? | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:59 DertoQq wrote: He suggested a safe 3gate expand, which is even worse than a 1 base. Artosis is really wrong on that point. Players are doing 15nexus/1gate FE to counter 1-1-1, not to be greedy. The way Artosis describe it, the players are ignorant, are playing risky and are hoping for the terran not to react. But the truth is that they perfectly know what's going on and what's going to happen. Artosis is highly underestimating the players if you ask me ^^ Your right - I was referring to Artosis hinting at other times that the "worst thing you can do" is to make a nexus. At the end of the day, he's wrong, and he definitely is underestimating the amount of time top Protoss' have put into finding a viable response. | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:56 Toadvine wrote: Well, to be fair Artosis said that in relation to what Virus did to Genius in game 1, and 1 base Colossus would've held that quite well in my opinion. That aside, a 9-10 minute attack being able to kill any expansion from a Protoss would just be ridiculous either way, even if you could hold it by 1 basing. I dont know man. His attack hit at 8:xx, it had combat shields and stim, 3 tanks with siege mode and a medivac. It looked very very potent. The builds Virus did in games 2 and 3 were just bad. He should have done MTRB all ins in games 2 and 3. | ||
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khaosis
Canada96 Posts
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:10 khaosis wrote: The 1/1/1, like any other build, is perfectly counterable. It just requires a hell of a good counter. Would you mind telling us what is this perfect counter then ? Because the scouting part isn't really a problem for anyone. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 24 2011 02:29 Teim wrote: Protoss are looking at the 1 / 1 / 1 all wrong. If you honestly cannot think of a way that you beat the 1 / 1 / 1 in a head on fight (which I still feel is debatable), you need to look for solutions else where. It's like how Zergs couldn't work out how to handle the Protoss deathball. Eventually however, the solution came: Don't let the Protoss ever get to the deathball. During this time we started seeing Zergs doing all sorts roach / ling all-inns against greedy Protoss builds. Protoss was forced to play safer builds and these days we rarely see the deathball. Warning: Spoiler about GSL games. + Show Spoiler + Genius in the GSL last night showed some void ray all-inn builds that can destroy the 1 / 1 / 1 before it can reach the critical mass (game 2). The void ray all-inn is also a solid build against other Terran builds as shown in game 3. If Protoss start doing this (and other creative all-inns), you're going to force Terrans to change their playstyle to much safer builds. The solution in form of protoss nerfs and zerg buffs. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:13 DertoQq wrote: Would you mind telling us what is this perfect counter then ? Because the scouting part isn't really a problem for anyone. Per the OP -- scouting is an issue: On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote: "Considering that Terran does an 1/1/1 push on short rush distance maps, you don't really have to worry about 1/1/1 on Taldarim, Terminus and others. But on maps like Antiga Shipyard, Protoss players need to think whether the Terran will do 1/1/1 or not to hold 1/1/1 off you need to take an expo ASAP but Terran could always fake making it seem like 1/1/1 by hiding marauders and do a 2 rax expo to cancel the Nexus" "People often forget that there are two hidden resources in Starcraft which are time and information. Protoss's viable way of get that 'information resource' is by 'consuming time' to make robotics or upgrade hallucination but by the scouting is over - it's late to prepare for 1/1/1. Protoss is forced to have a guessing game at the start on certain maps" | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:10 khaosis wrote: It's an interesting concept, but as the metagame is always shifting, I'm sure there will be strats by next month which can accurately bust the 1/1/1. Of course, it's up to the protoss to have good scouting and awareness to prevent any other types of pushes. The 1/1/1, like any other build, is perfectly counterable. It just requires a hell of a good counter. Thanks for being so specific O_O | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 24 2011 03:08 DertoQq wrote: By the time the all-in come, you would have way more money if you did expand than if you didn't. which wasn't the case with the 14 hatch. Give me 1 good reason not to expand ? There is ZERO reason to not expand except 1: expanding delays tech. But 1 base colossus and 1 base stargate suck vs 1-1-1 so you are right, there is absolutely nothing to lose from expanding. It tells me the relative skills of foreigners when they think Protoss and players are being greedy i.e Tyler, Incontrol, Artosis and Wolf. Socke said he blind countered a 1-1-1 against Puma (when he actually went 1 rax expand oops) and Socke went 1 gate expand - robo and 4 gates. Every single Korean knows they have to expand - TSLKiller went 15 nexus every single game vs T. Against Select, of the 3 games he played, guess which build he won against? 1-1-1! Protoss pillars of our community who everyone listens to are saying the wrong thing because 2 gate robo into 1 base colossus is baaaaad vs 1-1-1. | ||
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