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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 24 2011 02:33 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:30 Daniel C wrote:A: 1/1/1 is unstoppable. B: Player X held the 1/1/1. A: Ah, but that wasn't a well-executed 1/1/1. No true ScotsmanNo one is going to execute it perfectly below high GM. Both sides can screw up, isn't that part of the game? Balance doesn't matter below the top, so that's what we're talking about obviously.
I don't understand why a handful of people who are nowhere near close to the top of the skill curve are having 100+ page arguments about 1/1/1 being fair or not.
You guys aren't even examining certain games or anything. 1/1/1 is an opener, how the terran choses to play out his 1/1/1 in terms on which units he makes changes how protoss should respond.
Let me give you an example, for people going "YEAH ZEALOTS EAT MARINES"
What if he opts for a blueflame 1/1/1. Your zealots aren't looking so hot anymore are they.
I've played people who delay their 111 a bit and include ghosts stim and marauder.
Without looking at certain games, and only one variation of 1/1/1 the claims/idea's people are making are rather vague.
While I do think 1/1/1 is strong, it's certainly managable if you scout it and respond accordingly. Often protoss players make too many probes after expanding. T will be on 24~ and protoss will be nearing 40. WHY do you need that kind of lead when he's obviously all inning you. Just relax, cut some probes, hold and then mass probes.
The real issue, in my opinion is protoss not responding properly. And while I do think the push is quite strong, and I do lose to it when it catches me off guard ( Thor 1/1/1 fml ) I do think it is manageable.
Incase anyone cares or is going to use the QQ you suck arguement. I guess I am a mid-high masters protoss, Not that it matters.
What we should do in this thread is grab lets say, 5~ replays and analyze those. Then go over what could have P done. A big part of a tank push is engaging before siege. Good angles, good FF"s. These are things we can always work on as protoss players.
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On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)"
what?
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On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)"
Artosis was, to my dismay, displaying great ignorance on GSL today. He even suggested doing 3gate expand instead, which is one of the worst builds possible against the 1/1/1.
As the OP notes, your expansion pays for itself by the time the 1/1/1 hits. It is, therefore, worth it. Period.
I don't understand why a handful of people who are nowhere near close to the top of the skill curve are having 100+ page arguments about 1/1/1 being fair or not.
We like watching good games and we're sick of TvT. It's nothing complicated.
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On August 24 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)" what?
He's trying to cite Artosis' hinting that the solution to dealing with the 1-1-1 is for a Protoss to 1-base himself. In other words - Protoss being too greedy. Wolf has also expressed similar opinions.
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1gate fe is one of the only builds that will let you get the economy needed to deal with a well executed 1/1/1. However, depending on the greediness and build of your 1gate fe, it might be very susceptible to 2 rax reactor-tech lab with scv pull. THAT is the build order coin flip that you hear about. Not that 1/1/1 counters 1 gate fe. That's just stupid :p
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On August 24 2011 02:48 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:33 ak1knight wrote:On August 24 2011 02:30 Daniel C wrote:A: 1/1/1 is unstoppable. B: Player X held the 1/1/1. A: Ah, but that wasn't a well-executed 1/1/1. No true ScotsmanNo one is going to execute it perfectly below high GM. Both sides can screw up, isn't that part of the game? Balance doesn't matter below the top, so that's what we're talking about obviously. I don't understand why a handful of people who are nowhere near close to the top of the skill curve are having 100+ page arguments about 1/1/1 being fair or not. You guys aren't even examining certain games or anything. 1/1/1 is an opener, how the terran choses to play out his 1/1/1 in terms on which units he makes changes how protoss should respond. Let me give you an example, for people going "YEAH ZEALOTS EAT MARINES" What if he opts for a blueflame 1/1/1. Your zealots aren't looking so hot anymore are they. I've played people who delay their 111 a bit and include ghosts stim and marauder. Without looking at certain games, and only one variation of 1/1/1 the claims/idea's people are making are rather vague. While I do think 1/1/1 is strong, it's certainly managable if you scout it and respond accordingly. Often protoss players make too many probes after expanding. T will be on 24~ and protoss will be nearing 40. WHY do you need that kind of lead when he's obviously all inning you. Just relax, cut some probes, hold and then mass probes. The real issue, in my opinion is protoss not responding properly. And while I do think the push is quite strong, and I do lose to it when it catches me off guard ( Thor 1/1/1 fml ) I do think it is manageable. Incase anyone cares or is going to use the QQ you suck arguement. I guess I am a mid-high masters protoss, Not that it matters. What we should do in this thread is grab lets say, 5~ replays and analyze those. Then go over what could have P done. A big part of a tank push is engaging before siege. Good angles, good FF"s. These are things we can always work on as protoss players.
this is actually very reasonable
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On August 24 2011 02:50 Alejandrisha wrote:
1gate fe is one of the only builds that will let you get the economy needed to deal with a well executed 1/1/1. However, depending on the greediness and build of your 1gate fe, it might be very susceptible to 2 rax reactor-tech lab with scv pull. THAT is the build order coin flip that you hear about. Not that 1/1/1 counters 1 gate fe. That's just stupid :p
Sadly Artosis and then Tasteless were saying just that  It was most saddening to hear, especially since Artosis plays toss now. Complete ignorance from them
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On August 24 2011 02:49 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)" Artosis was, to my dismay, displaying great ignorance on GSL today. He even suggested doing 3gate expand instead, which is one of the worst builds possible against the 1/1/1. As the OP notes, your expansion pays for itself by the time the 1/1/1 hits. It is, therefore, worth it. Period.
Thank you for the answer - I was getting very confused, listening to the gsl cast today - cause it was totally opposite of what i've read on the 1-1-1 subject so far. Jeeeez artosis - stop screwing with my head
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I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip.
The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo
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On August 24 2011 02:49 Yaotzin wrote:
We like watching good games and we're sick of TvT. It's nothing complicated.
People playing well produces good games. If protoss are playing too greedy or reacting poorly, that is their fault.
How often do we see a bunker rush or a 2rax work and crush a zerg. Are these really good games?
Didn't leenock just lose to a bunker rush in one of his games?
Game quality is directly related to the players playing the games, and how they respond.
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So every TvP will be void ray all in or 1/1/1. Thats doesn't cause concern for people?
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On August 24 2011 02:52 Alejandrisha wrote:
I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip.
The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo
I've made this exact post maybe 5-10 times in the last two weeks.
The resulting counter argument is "Stop playing so greedy Protoss, if you expand vs 1-1-1 you deserve to die. This is why 1-1-1 is so effective."
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On August 24 2011 02:49 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)" Artosis was, to my dismay, displaying great ignorance on GSL today. He even suggested doing 3gate expand instead, which is one of the worst builds possible against the 1/1/1. As the OP notes, your expansion pays for itself by the time the 1/1/1 hits. It is, therefore, worth it. Period. Show nested quote +
I don't understand why a handful of people who are nowhere near close to the top of the skill curve are having 100+ page arguments about 1/1/1 being fair or not.
We like watching good games and we're sick of TvT. It's nothing complicated.
Well, to be fair Artosis said that in relation to what Virus did to Genius in game 1, and 1 base Colossus would've held that quite well in my opinion.
That aside, a 9-10 minute attack being able to kill any expansion from a Protoss would just be ridiculous either way, even if you could hold it by 1 basing.
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3g is a pressure build, imo. If you open 3g expo against a terran that is teching, you really have to try to do damage with your inital waves of gateway units. Your expo is extremely late if he's opening 1/1/1. I used to 3g on xel naga but I don't anymore cause it's absolute garbage against 1/1/1
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On August 24 2011 02:35 Heavenly wrote:
That's why people are discussing its execution at high GM? No one is complaining that they can't beat it in diamond.
Ehmmm i faced it 20 times never beaten it.. and im diamond, raging at my opponent every time :/
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On August 24 2011 02:53 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:49 Yaotzin wrote:
We like watching good games and we're sick of TvT. It's nothing complicated. People playing well produces good games. If protoss are playing too greedy or reacting poorly, that is their fault.
The thread makes the case that they are not reacting poorly, the push is simply imbalanced.
This "greed" stuff is tiresome. 15nexus and 1gate FE are (somewhat) coin-flippy *counters* to 1/1/1. 1/1/1 does NOT punish greed, at all. On the contrary to have any chance against it you must be as greedy as you possibly can.
How often do we see a bunker rush or a 2rax work and crush a zerg. Are these really good games?
Didn't leenock just lose to a bunker rush in one of his games?
Game quality is directly related to the players playing the games, and how they respond.
Partly. When one player is helpless though you'll never get a good game. That's why MVP, to his great credit, refuses to use 1/1/1 and thinks it should get you DQed from tournaments.
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On August 24 2011 02:54 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:52 Alejandrisha wrote:
I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip.
The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo I've made this exact post maybe 5-10 times in the last two weeks. The resulting counter argument is "Stop playing so greedy Protoss, if you expand vs 1-1-1 you deserve to die. This is why 1-1-1 is so effective."
then i guess we have to give up xD
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you guys realize someone made a build to counter this right? I've won everygame vs 1/1/1 now and its not all in and most times they dont even get the chance to move out. I basically have higher level tech more econ and can still kill him.
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On August 24 2011 02:56 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:54 QTIP. wrote:On August 24 2011 02:52 Alejandrisha wrote:
I have never seen 1 base protoss beat 1/1/1 unless it was a void ray all in, which is a stupid example to cite because it's a COMPLETE coinflip.
The only time a protoss would 1 base against a terran would be for a void ray all in, a 4 gate, or they're close spawn on some crappy map and he is forced to 1g robo into 3g robo and the terran tries to expand and he goes all in with immortal zealot sentry. 1 base colossus is terrible against 1/1/1 but you might be forced to do it **IF YOU ALREADY OPENED** 1g robo into 2g or 3g robo I've made this exact post maybe 5-10 times in the last two weeks. The resulting counter argument is "Stop playing so greedy Protoss, if you expand vs 1-1-1 you deserve to die. This is why 1-1-1 is so effective." then i guess we have to give up xD
Nobrain terrans no understand. They all like herp derp smash bros brawl 
But yeah getting quite tired of all those terran who didnt read the OP -.-
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On August 24 2011 02:56 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:49 Yaotzin wrote:On August 24 2011 02:47 Chr15t wrote:
Artosis : Protoss should stop doing 1gate FE, cause its greedy and die to the 1-1-1 allin ... so .. is artosis wrong or is 1-1-1 just impossible to deal with "correctly" or is it basicly "(i hope my opponent screws up)" Artosis was, to my dismay, displaying great ignorance on GSL today. He even suggested doing 3gate expand instead, which is one of the worst builds possible against the 1/1/1. As the OP notes, your expansion pays for itself by the time the 1/1/1 hits. It is, therefore, worth it. Period.
I don't understand why a handful of people who are nowhere near close to the top of the skill curve are having 100+ page arguments about 1/1/1 being fair or not.
We like watching good games and we're sick of TvT. It's nothing complicated. Well, to be fair Artosis said that in relation to what Virus did to Genius in game 1, and 1 base Colossus would've held that quite well in my opinion. That aside, a 9-10 minute attack being able to kill any expansion from a Protoss would just be ridiculous either way, even if you could hold it by 1 basing.
At first they were just saying that and it was kinda true, but then they started talking about the 1/1/1 - even mentioning it specifically as something the community is talking about - and saying it punishes greed. Sigh.
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EPT
