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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 24 2011 02:17 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:14 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 02:12 Yaotzin wrote:
The top 3 are Vibe, Select, and MMA. Only one of these is a top player. you are not reading what i'm saying... it's a metric when looking at TOP players. not looking at people with highest APM. look at top players and tell me who has low APM or who spams inefficiently. don't tell me who sucks and has a high apm. that doesn't refute my argument in any way. Hey you said look at the top 3, I looked at them. Top players with low APM: White-ra, Sjow. Spam inefficiently: everyone else. They'll happily tell you they spam inefficiently themselves, you know. Just ask any of them.
are you fucking kidding?
I think it was obvious that I meant the top 3 in terms of finish....
the top 3 in terms of finish...
MMA, Losira, MC
and give me proof of a player who has said "i spam inefficiently when its the most important part of a game"
I don't really think you're qualified to continue this argument, no offense. you're not helping prove your point at all.
Please read and respond to my argument, not what you assume my argument to be.
I never at any point said high APM = skill. I never at any point said that players who have APM = good. I never at any point said that if you have a high APM you will be good.
my argument does not allow for either the Transitive Property or the Substitution Property of Equality. It only goes one way.
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Again, I think it makes no sense for the solution to involve robotics until 9+m. None of the robotics tech is immediately useful, when a forge + 1-2 cannon would be enough, so that your gas can go into more appropriate tech (probably citadel+charge+archons).
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On August 24 2011 02:20 naventus wrote:
Again, I think it makes no sense for the solution to involve robotics until 9+m. None of the robotics tech is immediately useful, when a forge + 1-2 cannon would be enough, so that your gas can go into more appropriate tech (probably citadel+charge+archons).
this only works when you know the build is a 1-1-1, when you don't until stargate or robo tech reveals that to you.
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Hopefully, I can add something constructive here. I did a little BO practicing to see what protoss could get to hit close to the 9 minute mark. I think a good name for this build would be the GERV build (there are enough self named builds lol) it stands for 1(G)ate (E)xpo (R)obo (V)oid.
I've had solid success holding 1-1-1's with this style, keep in mind I'm platinum but I have been able to beat masters terrans with this build and play style. What a top pro can do with it is not for me to determine, obviously. But this could help the masses deal with 1-1-1 if executed properly. The build order is basically a 1 gate expand, add 2nd gate, robo, stargate. Produce a 1 stalker 1 zealot poke, then 2 sentries, then obs into nonstop crono'd immortals and then crono voids. The real strength of this is it's extreme flexibility. You can easily adapt this build in game or if you stick to it explicitly you will have a ton of options after the 9:30 mark if you survive the all in, which it is targeted at. It does fine vs bio too.
Something that was brought up in the op was DPS issues, immortals, voids and zealots have great dps. Voids can smash banshees or tanks, immortals are great vs tanks as well and reduce banshee dmg to 10. Your probably thinking "What about the marines, you idiot" That's also dealt with using a few concepts. Guardian shield + FF's + the fact that you will have 2 immortals and 2 voids which can't all be target fired (especially when you break them up with FF), + you will have some zealots. The zealots mean that they will have to either stutter step to deal with the zealots and avoid friendly tank fire, or target fire the voids/immortals and watch their marines evaporate. Also, this combination can smash bunkers and you have enough FF to prevent repair. Like with any build it comes down to micro, retreating target fired units, good sentry usage, good target firing of your own, and trying to make the battle happen in a favorable area on the map. The tanks will always be in back, but the composition this build provides should be able to deal with that and you will have a nice re-enforce from 3 gates 1 robo and 1 stargate after the 9 minute mark.
The last thing to keep in mind is PDD does not affect your voids,immortals,zealots or sentries. So it is probably a waste of gas on terrans part vs this composition. Banshees are probably the biggest threat, you need to kill off the marines/bunkers and have a void ray still standing or you will be in trouble. But worst case scenario, where you loose your voids and manage to kill the ground army will be that you're able to get phoenix and stalkers out to re-enforce and clean up banshees pretty fast.
Enough preface here is the key timings.
I tested the timings vs easy cpu, but I made sure and added some scout timings to make it somewhat realistic and give the build chances to make changes early.
- included scout after gateway
-1 stalker 1 zealot poke at 5:30
- warp completes at 6:05
- 2nd sentry done at 6:10
- nexus + 2nd gate done at 6:30
- Robo done at 6:40 (1st possible obs @7:10 with 1 crono)
Take note of this first part because you have a 1 minute window from your poke to your nexus being done, you can change the build into a 3 gate robo, 2 gate colossus, or 4 gate if your scout sees too much bio for a 1-1-1. Flexibility is good 
You can cancel the nexus and have plenty of FF's to buy time with 2 sentries out at 6:10 also.
So any 3 rax nonsense, concussive rush or whatever else they may do you are safe against.
-I cut probes at 7min mark, nonstop probe production before this (but only crono probes before cyber)
- Stargate finishes @ 7:20 (1st void @8:30 and I didn't have the gas to start it immediately*)
-3rd gate finishes @ 8:50
@ 9:15 I have 34 probes (3 geysers) Army = 2 sentry,2 voids, 2 immortals, 3 stalkers, 6 zealots
These sentries have enough energy to make 1 guardian shield and 5ff
I tried to keep in mind banshee harass, cloak, barracks rushes, a terran who expos. I think maybe 10 or 15 seconds could easily be shaved off of that 9:15 timing. After all I am platinum and my apm was in the 40's when I was testing this build order. I'd bet more could be shaved off if this was run through proper BO testing software. But I have never used one, so I will leave that to any community members with the knowledge to run it properly and the generous use of their time.
The biggest issue I have in figuring this out is exactly what the terran will have when the attack hits around the 9 min mark, and how this timing will vary depending on their composition. As I said earlier, keep in mind you will have a world of options after this point though, you can make more obs, a prism,go colossus,more voids or immortals, phoenix, add twilight, add more gates and this build is easy to adapt before the 6:20 mark if needed.
Come on guys, let's stop talking about changing the game and start trying to think our way out of this. Please, for the love of starcraft, don't say things like "you will die to x,y, or z" A big part of this build is giving you the flexibility to adapt to x,y or z.
I'm adding a replay so you can see the exact build order for yourselves. It clearly needs some refinement (I don't like how much time there is between the stargate being done and my 1st void starting, maybe I need my 2nd gas earlier?), but that will only strengthen my argument to it's potential. If any higher level players can clean it up and show a better BO for this, please do so! To all the people who are going to try and tear it down, try it first, please.
GERV build ftw
Replay
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Your army would get crushed at 9m by the marines. I don't think star tech or robo tech is the answer. I think getting chargelots + 1/2 archon is superior.
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On August 24 2011 02:19 somadbro wrote:
I think it was obvious that I meant the top 3 in terms of finish....
No, it's not obvious.
and give me proof of a player who has said "i spam inefficiently when its the most important part of a game"
First you use average APM, now you talk about APM when it matters. White-Ra has good APM when it matters, but according to you isn't a top player because his average APM is under 150.
I never at any point said high APM = skill. I never at any point said that players who have APM = good. I never at any point said that if you have a high APM you will be good.
You seem to think you require high average apm to be good though, which is complete nonsense. High apm when it matters, yes, overall, no. At least half of the APM from players like MMA, MC and Losira is spam, not important clicks.
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On August 24 2011 02:21 Reborn8u wrote: Hopefully, I can add something constructive here. I did a little BO practicing to see what protoss could get to hit close to the 9 minute mark. I think a good name for this build would be the GERV build (there are enough self named builds lol) it stands for 1(G)ate (E)xpo (R)obo (V)oid. I've had solid success holding 1-1-1's with this style, keep in mind I'm platinum but I have been able to beat masters terrans with this build and play style. What a top pro can do with it is not for me to determine, obviously. But this could help the masses deal with 1-1-1 if executed properly. The build order is basically a 1 gate expand, add 2nd gate, robo, stargate. Produce a 1 stalker 1 zealot poke, then 2 sentries, then obs into nonstop crono'd immortals and then crono voids. The real strength of this is it's extreme flexibility. You can easily adapt this build in game or if you stick to it explicitly you will have a ton of options after the 9:30 mark if you survive the all in, which it is targeted at. It does fine vs bio too. Something that was brought up in the op was DPS issues, immortals, voids and zealots have great dps. Voids can smash banshees or tanks, immortals are great vs tanks as well and reduce banshee dmg to 10. Your probably thinking "What about the marines, you idiot" That's also dealt with using a few concepts. Guardian shield + FF's + the fact that you will have 2 immortals and 2 voids which can't all be target fired (especially when you break them up with FF), + you will have some zealots. The zealots mean that they will have to either stutter step to deal with the zealots and avoid friendly tank fire, or target fire the voids/immortals and watch their marines evaporate. Also, this combination can smash bunkers and you have enough FF to prevent repair. Like with any build it comes down to micro, retreating target fired units, good sentry usage, good target firing of your own, and trying to make the battle happen in a favorable area on the map. The tanks will always be in back, but the composition this build provides should be able to deal with that and you will have a nice re-enforce from 3 gates 1 robo and 1 stargate after the 9 minute mark. The last thing to keep in mind is PDD does not affect your voids,immortals,zealots or sentries. So it is probably a waste of gas on terrans part vs this composition. Banshees are probably the biggest threat, you need to kill off the marines/bunkers and have a void ray still standing or you will be in trouble. But worst case scenario, where you loose your voids and manage to kill the ground army will be that you're able to get phoenix and stalkers out to re-enforce and clean up banshees pretty fast. Enough preface here is the key timings. I tested the timings vs easy cpu, but I made sure and added some scout timings to make it somewhat realistic and give the build chances to make changes early. - included scout after gateway -1 stalker 1 zealot poke at 5:30 - warp completes at 6:05 - 2nd sentry done at 6:10 - nexus + 2nd gate done at 6:30 - Robo done at 6:40 (1st possible obs @7:10 with 1 crono) Take note of this first part because you have a 1 minute window from your poke to your nexus being done, you can change the build into a 3 gate robo, 2 gate colossus, or 4 gate if your scout sees too much bio for a 1-1-1. Flexibility is good You can cancel the nexus and have plenty of FF's to buy time with 2 sentries out at 6:10 also. So any 3 rax nonsense, concussive rush or whatever else they may do you are safe against. -I cut probes at 7min mark, nonstop probe production before this (but only crono probes before cyber) - Stargate finishes @ 7:20 (1st void @8:30 and I didn't have the gas to start it immediately*) -3rd gate finishes @ 8:50 @ 9:15 I have 34 probes (3 geysers) Army = 2 sentry,2 voids, 2 immortals, 3 stalkers, 6 zealots These sentries have enough energy to make 1 guardian shield and 5ff I tried to keep in mind banshee harass, cloak, barracks rushes, a terran who expos. I think maybe 10 or 15 seconds could easily be shaved off of that 9:15 timing. After all I am platinum and my apm was in the 40's when I was testing this build order. I'd bet more could be shaved off if this was run through proper BO testing software. But I have never used one, so I will leave that to any community members with the knowledge to run it properly and the generous use of their time. The biggest issue I have in figuring this out is exactly what the terran will have when the attack hits around the 9 min mark, and how this timing will vary depending on their composition. As I said earlier, keep in mind you will have a world of options after this point though, you can make more obs, a prism,go colossus,more voids or immortals, phoenix, add twilight, add more gates and this build is easy to adapt before the 6:20 mark if needed. Come on guys, let's stop talking about changing the game and start trying to think our way out of this. Please, for the love of starcraft, don't say things like "you will die to x,y, or z" A big part of this build is giving you the flexibility to adapt to x,y or z. I'm adding a replay so you can see the exact build order for yourselves. It clearly needs some refinement (I don't like how much time there is between the stargate being done and my 1st void starting, maybe I need my 2nd gas earlier?), but that will only strengthen my argument to it's potential. If any higher level players can clean it up and show a better BO for this, please do so! To all the people who are going to try and tear it down, try it first, please. GERV build ftw Replay
this is very cool and good research. very valuable contribution. good stuff  I also like how you're not naming it after yourself, even though i would say you are probably the first to present this in the manner you have. unlike most people on TL who claim a long-used build as their own lololol
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On August 24 2011 02:12 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:04 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:48 Medrea wrote:On August 24 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:28 Medrea wrote:On August 24 2011 01:23 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:18 Medrea wrote:On August 24 2011 01:15 IVN wrote:
I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons. Its good against the non scv version. Not so great with like 20 SCV's right there. Why not? I think it would be even better with all the SCVs there. Remember - I'm obviously pulling these numbers out of my ass - if you have 10-15 blink stalkers by the time he comes down his ramp, he would have to siege up every time you engage, because blink stalkers can never be owned by rines and banshees. And if the SCVs are there, this means that for every second that you can stall, you get a much greater force compared to the terran (2 base vs 1 base + pulled SCVs). Too much shit to shoot. Stalkers arent none for being baller in the damage department. Also 300 minerals in cannons that aren't helping in the fight is a real drag. When going stalkers minerals are key. Well on 2 base with only 2 gases, you will have a huge excess of minerals. And I know that stalkers have abysmal DPS, but with blink they are the most mobile unit in the game, and the unit with the highest retention rate. And if you look at the terran composition, it is immobile as fuck. So the logical conclusion would be to engage with something fast and retreat. Chipping away at his units and buying time so you can outproduce him. On August 24 2011 01:34 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:25 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective? Yeah, ultra easy. Hands down the easiest all in in the game. Even easier than 4gt - by far - and thats saying a lot. what's his sustained apm in the minute right before the push reaches MC's base? That is not important. Many players spam APM like crazy, w/o even doing anything. If the APM tab was any indicator of real, sensible actions, Goody would never win a game. (because his opponents always have 2-3x more APM) Honestly Blink+forge is one of my favorite ways of tackling this solution. And I think pro's would consider this a not too far away second place. The bullet points of this approach is that i f you want, you can just attempt to maul the terran immediately anytime you want once blink is done. Just try to flank with some zealots and blink right in as they engage. You will be nowhere to ontop of him instantly. Only problem is, you tend to lose everything, or almost everything. And all-in number two comes and kills you. Thats why immortals are the standard route. If they survive, the future all-ins won;t be a threat. Well, I think that is bad idea. The purpose of the blink should be to stall. If you can get the terran to siege 3 times - once at his natural, once in the middle and once at your natural (parallel to blink cooldown) - you should be able to get one extra minute. In that minute you could get 8 more stalkers (with chrono), and maybe build a couple of cannons at your natural to stall even more. And while he is sieging your natural you could be positioning your blink stalker n a way, so you can cut off reinforcements, like zergs do with their lings when defending a 2rax bunker push. When he kills the nexus, the protoss should be able to have around 25 stalkers. Or you could cut 3-4 stalkers and get out your first colossus! That's a gamechanger.
No, you cant. Thats much more gas than 3-4 stalkers.
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On August 24 2011 02:15 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:11 Aletheia27 wrote:
You're going to site Thorzain...as you primary example for a terran 1/1/1?
I mentioned it because it was one of the 1/1/1 defences offered by people. Of holding it against good players? Where are these pages? Nope, no good players there either. Yes, sorry, I should technically write "a defence that doesn't involve using a ridiculously unsafe build that has multiple BO losses if scouted". But I'm lazy, I leave that part out.
Sorry. If you're only going to listen good players I guess you should go elsewhere. Obviously you know who's good and not and are an expert on everything. Yawn. Why even bother coming here?
By YOUR standards, I can hardly think that you're a "good" player yourself. You're most definitely not professional. So why does this matter to you? Why should we only consider "good," if we can even call them that. Can we not account for mistakes? Test how things could've gone differently?
You should really just stop whining, contribute something, and got off that lazy ass of yours.
Also, 1 gate FE, in my experience does not have ANY build order losses. Although some seem to claim otherwise so I won't make that argument either. But for me, I've only on rare occasions lost to a 1/1/1 with it. And i'm not talking about huk's style of 1 gate FE, but more along the lines of MC's or the kcdc's version.
Anyway, I guess this is why I don't deal with these types of threads. No point, because there's no discussion.
Bye now ^^
PS: Defense is spelled with an "s" not a "c"
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On August 24 2011 02:23 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:19 somadbro wrote:
I think it was obvious that I meant the top 3 in terms of finish....
No, it's not obvious. Show nested quote +
and give me proof of a player who has said "i spam inefficiently when its the most important part of a game"
First you use average APM, now you talk about APM when it matters. White-Ra has good APM when it matters, but according to you isn't a top player because his average APM is under 150. Show nested quote +
I never at any point said high APM = skill. I never at any point said that players who have APM = good. I never at any point said that if you have a high APM you will be good.
You seem to think you require high average apm to be good though, which is complete nonsense. High apm when it matters, yes, overall, no. At least half of the APM from players like MMA, MC and Losira is spam, not important clicks.
i never said average apm was an indicator of skill.
i never said that you need high APM to be good.
I said that players who are top level players, generally speaking, have high apm and don't spam inefficiently.
inefficient is the keyword in that sentence. it means that they spam, but it does not interfere with their ability to play the game.
players who spam inefficiently are actually hampering themselves.
do you start to see my point?
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Protoss are looking at the 1 / 1 / 1 all wrong. If you honestly cannot think of a way that you beat the 1 / 1 / 1 in a head on fight (which I still feel is debatable), you need to look for solutions else where.
It's like how Zergs couldn't work out how to handle the Protoss deathball. Eventually however, the solution came: Don't let the Protoss ever get to the deathball. During this time we started seeing Zergs doing all sorts roach / ling all-inns against greedy Protoss builds. Protoss was forced to play safer builds and these days we rarely see the deathball.
Warning: Spoiler about GSL games.
+ Show Spoiler +Genius in the GSL last night showed some void ray all-inn builds that can destroy the 1 / 1 / 1 before it can reach the critical mass (game 2). The void ray all-inn is also a solid build against other Terran builds as shown in game 3. If Protoss start doing this (and other creative all-inns), you're going to force Terrans to change their playstyle to much safer builds.
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A: 1/1/1 is unstoppable.
B: Player X held the 1/1/1.
A: Ah, but that wasn't a well-executed 1/1/1.
No true Scotsman
No one is going to execute it perfectly below high GM. Both sides can screw up, isn't that part of the game?
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On August 24 2011 02:25 Aletheia27 wrote:
PS: Defense is spelled with an "s" not a "c"
It's both
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Teim, if something is "blind all-in" then it isn't a "solid build", by definition.
PS: the solution to the deathball were Infestors. People nowadays still go for 200/200 Colossus/Stalker, but they don't add Voidrays anymore, because they're just freekills for Infestors. People are trying to mix in High Templars though.
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On August 24 2011 02:25 Aletheia27 wrote:
Sorry. If you're only going to listen good players I guess you should go elsewhere. Obviously you know who's good and not and are an expert on everything. Yawn. Why even bother coming here?
By YOUR standards, I can hardly think that you're a "good" player yourself.
No, I'm not.
You're most definitely not professional. So why does this matter to you?
It makes watching GSL - and high level SC2 in general - boring. I would prefer it be fun to watch, as I otherwise enjoy it.
PS: Defense is spelled with an "s" not a "c"
Both are considered acceptable spellings. If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about you shouldn't try to correct people.
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On August 24 2011 02:27 somadbro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:23 Yaotzin wrote:On August 24 2011 02:19 somadbro wrote:
I think it was obvious that I meant the top 3 in terms of finish....
No, it's not obvious.
and give me proof of a player who has said "i spam inefficiently when its the most important part of a game"
First you use average APM, now you talk about APM when it matters. White-Ra has good APM when it matters, but according to you isn't a top player because his average APM is under 150.
I never at any point said high APM = skill. I never at any point said that players who have APM = good. I never at any point said that if you have a high APM you will be good.
You seem to think you require high average apm to be good though, which is complete nonsense. High apm when it matters, yes, overall, no. At least half of the APM from players like MMA, MC and Losira is spam, not important clicks. i never said average apm was an indicator of skill. i never said that you need high APM to be good. I said that players who are top level players, generally speaking, have high apm and don't spam inefficiently. inefficient is the keyword in that sentence. it means that they spam, but it does not interfere with their ability to play the game. players who spam inefficiently are actually hampering themselves. do you start to see my point?
If you do actions that you don't need or doesn't help you doing anything, then you're spamming. Pretty much every pro-players are spamming and you absolutely can't say "Oh, Puma played better than MC cuz he had a better APM" because the difference of APM between both of them is most likely useless actions.
(i'm not even sure you're the one who said something like that but still, i just wanted to say it)
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On August 24 2011 02:30 Daniel C wrote:A: 1/1/1 is unstoppable. B: Player X held the 1/1/1. A: Ah, but that wasn't a well-executed 1/1/1. No true ScotsmanNo one is going to execute it perfectly below high GM. Both sides can screw up, isn't that part of the game?
Balance doesn't matter below the top, so that's what we're talking about obviously.
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On August 24 2011 02:32 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:25 Aletheia27 wrote:
Sorry. If you're only going to listen good players I guess you should go elsewhere. Obviously you know who's good and not and are an expert on everything. Yawn. Why even bother coming here?
By YOUR standards, I can hardly think that you're a "good" player yourself.
No, I'm not. It makes watching GSL - and high level SC2 in general - boring. I would prefer it be fun to watch, as I otherwise enjoy it. Both are considered acceptable spellings. If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about you shouldn't try to correct people.
I find watching 1/1/1 vs toss enjoyable. So sorry about perspective.
Also sorry about the spelling. I wasn't aware. Also, that phrase makes very little sense. If I don't know what I'm talking about how could I be aware that I don't know what I'm talking about? I did a quick wiki search, evidently too quick, and found the common spelling to be with an "s." My apologize. Take a chill pill. Lawls
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On August 24 2011 02:29 Teim wrote:
It's like how Zergs couldn't work out how to handle the Protoss deathball. Eventually however, the solution came: Don't let the Protoss ever get to the deathball. During this time we started seeing Zergs doing all sorts roach / ling all-inns against greedy Protoss builds. Protoss was forced to play safer builds and these days we rarely see the deathball.
Listen, it's been said dozens of times before, but, it took the fungal growth change for this metagame shift to take place.
Also sorry about the spelling. I wasn't aware. Also, that phrase makes very little sense. If I don't know what I'm talking about how could I be aware that I don't know what I'm talking about? I did a quick wiki search, evidently too quick, and found the common spelling to be with an "s." My apologize. Take a chill pill. Lawls
It's just funny because you post was about how it wasn't worth your time to try and convince all the obviously incorrect people that keep posting in this thread.
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EPT
