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On August 17 2011 13:19 L3gendary wrote:
Koreans' sense of entitlement is disgusting. They can barely get sponsors so they want nasl to foot the bill for all their expenses, and give their players manicures and spa treatment while they're at it.
The worst part is they are lecturing NASL on what the proper way to go about things is, when:
1) They signed contracts, then broke them
2) Started negotiations, but made it impossible to know who to talk to
3) Talk about issues they have with NASL in public while criticizing NASL for going public, even though NASL wasn't directly criticizing anyone and they are
4) And doing the above after NASL clearly expressed that they don't know who made the decision and don't know who to talk to, ad that if anyone has a problem, to message them so they can talk and improve the situation and end on good terms.
5) Made several erroneous claims in this post alone.
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On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
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On August 17 2011 13:22 Ahtiven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
You're confusing the SC2 players with the SCBW players. 
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On August 17 2011 13:00 Greyjoy wrote:
I'm starting to lose a lot of respect for both the korean teams and nasl. They seem to release childish articles taking potshots at each other. Furthermore what the hell are the official channels? Nasl released their piece on TL, the site for english sc2. Where else would they post it?
On their official website? -_-
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On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact.
First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league.
Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles.
Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision?
Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore?
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On August 17 2011 13:22 Ahtiven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Because son, in Korea, they actually are rockstars.
Nope. Rockstars have sponsors.
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On August 17 2011 12:50 ThreeActPlay wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
Sorry, but this is bunk to me. If you have to be wined and dined to compete, tough. NASL should focus on the production and the broadcast, since that's what the fans care about.
bunk? They want to get picked up from the airport, given a place to sleep, and not sit around 7 hours waiting to play. i don't think those requests=wine and dined.
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On August 17 2011 13:15 Robonord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
No, they only provide them with food, shelter, computers and slots in Code A. >_>
John picks everyone up at the airport -.-
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5003 Posts
On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T
Haha.
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Just out of curiousity, does GSL do any of those things for foreign players that go and compete in korea? Or is it up to said players team to make those arrangements?
Why do the koreans feel it's the tournaments responsibility to do all those things for them. If they don't want to compete in the tourney that's fine, don't compete. Don't tell the tournaments to bend over backwards for you if the 40K prize isn't enough then just don't come.
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On August 17 2011 13:23 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:13 whateverpeeps wrote:
I think this article is very misleading.
First of all, there shouldn't be any confusion over the deposits. NASL is acting in accordance to the contract. This is a frequent example of Korean mentality where they sign a contract and expect it to be more of a "guideline" rather than what we've come to consider a contract.
Second of all, players DID have tickets purchased for them, WERE shuttled, WERE provided a translator.
Third, the whole reason why this became an issue is because someone somewhere reached a decision to not participate, peer-pressured/convinced other teams to not join. None of these managers had the thought to actually talk to NASL directly about their concerns, and rather made it impossible for NASL to know WHO was behind the decision and WHO they need to talk to.
Who does that in the middle of negotiations? It's incredibly stupid to expect a reasonable decision reached when you don't even provide adequate contact and communication for negotiations to take place, and then you want to lecture NASL about what they need to do?
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I feel like MVP, who has not experienced the issues firsthand, has heard the exaggerated complaints of other teams. I would advise them, to go talk to NASL directly about these concerns. There was no point in making this public, although, sadly it's an improvement because at least NASL will actually get to see the problem now and know who to contact. First, you don't know the details of the contract so you can't say much on that. All we know from NASL's statement is that Korean teams signed one and since withdrawn from the league. Second, players paid for tickets and shuttles. Third, they did talk to NASL. Why do you even assume that there is someone behind this decision? Also, this is an interview. He isn't free to say what he thinks anymore?
1) NASL has explicitally stated that ALL players of season 1 signed a contract saying their deposits would be paid back within 60 days. Clearly, after signing this contract, Koreans wanted their deposits back sooner. That's not how it works.
2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know.
3) NASL explicitly said no manager, despite having all of their contact info, has ever expressed any problems to them, and that they had to talk to mediators (like mr.chae, who has stated that he is a mediator, and even he doesn't know who is on the other side).
4) He is allowed to say what he thinks, but people are also allowed to correct him.
It is also worrysome because what he thinks seems to be wrong which means he was mislead.
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On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha.
Oh, this should be interesting.
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On August 17 2011 13:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:02 sirkyex wrote:
I foresee a contradiction. NASL had a problem with walkovers and people not showing up for matches on time in the league so they raised the deposits so its more of a penalty for flaking out. Koreans want them to eliminate deposit and make sure people show up on time for matches.... suggestions? Problem is not that people don't show up on time. It's that when they don't, people who did show up on time (koreans) had to wait.
I think it's a culture thing, since none of the Koreans missed a match.
I feel like the obvious solution would have been to have players check in ahead of time and if they didn't show up in the window then they got walked-over. But instead NASL was desperate to keep their matches broadcast and did things like make July wait until 8am for a no-show. Or asking players to make the decision on if they would take the walk-over (with all the community pressure to not 'duck' the players getting walked-over). Same thing happened to Boxer at the end of the season so it's not like they got stricter about no-shows either.
On August 17 2011 13:10 missingheaven wrote:
"Finally, because I’m answering what NASL should change in order for MVP team to participate, NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast. If NASL want the tournament to grow, the players’ convenience should be the first priority in order to create great matches so that the fans will become enthusiastic."
This is fucking sad.
You are players, exactly just everyone else. Have koreans EVER PICKED UP A FOREIGN PLAYER FOR GSL?
Fucking kids, stop threating yourself as rockstars which you aren't are.
Part of John the Translator and Torch's job is picking up the Code A invites and sending them to the Gom House.
That's a big part of Torch's job with Gom (used to be John's job) is making sure the foreign players have everything they need (not paid for of course, but pointing them in the right direction).
They also have Wolf/Doa/Moletrap living in the Gom house to further help the foreigners.
The Gom House it should be noted, is available even to non-invites as long as there's enough room (Artosis interviewed a whole bunch of hopefuls there a few seasons ago).
For the GSL World Championships they covered airfare for all the participants too.
On August 17 2011 13:26 whateverpeeps wrote:
2) After NASL gave them some money to do it. But more importantly, NASL has stated that they booked flights and shuttles for players who were confused. And I would be more inclined to believe NASL because 1) you can't blatantly lie about that, 2) MVP wasn't even there so how would they know.
People keep saying this, and it's true NASL did travel arrangements *even the article in the OP* says as much. Problems with flight cost lead to the Season 2 standoff.
And the problem with the shuttle is that NASL said they'd handle it, without telling the players that they would be charged. Notice that MVP's coach is saying that NASL gave them a ride and stuck them with the bill, never mentioning that ahead of time.
Yes, he's hearing it second hand, but he's not refuting that NASL provided transportation (as Xeris decided to get indignant about).
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On August 17 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:
This is kind of dumb because no matter what Koreans say, we have Xeris and perhaps other NASL representatives in this very topic, which just doesn't make for a balanced debate - neither does SotG. I'm not saying that Xeris or anyone else is blatantly lying or something like that, but it's just that when you have 2 sides of an argument, and the best 1 side can do to communicate is post articles while the other side can directly interact with the rest of the community, it doesn't make for a balanced discussion. I'd rather have a direct interaction between a representative of the NASL and representatives of Korean teams in a discussion, because this constantly indirect releasing of opinions and arguments from either side just... doesn't seem to work.
I think this is a good point.
A private live discussion would be a good way for both sides to clear their issues, after this NASL.
A streamed one could potentially heal the reputations of both sides, but it could also make it worse.
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He explained his concerns, fine, i can agree with some of them and if that's what they're used to, that's what they're going to expect. But now he needs to apologise (or SC2Con, whoever is at fault here i don't care, someone needs to man up and be held account for this) for their poor negotiating tactics and generally douchebaggery.
Still not impressed with Korean tactics here. Very very disrespectful. Makes EG look like saints.
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The total expenses for the trip for each player were over $2,000, and while that was the amount NASL offered to cover, $1,000 of that came out of the prize money for taking last place at the finals. That meant that players taking last place were losing money, making it difficult to justify nine weeks worth of effort for many professional gamers.
So you go through a 2 month long tournament, place top 16, and you actually end up losing money. A lot at that too. The tournament just isn't worth the risk vs. reward. It's not just winning one game in the playoffs, it's making it into the top 8 of a 64 player tournament which is very time consuming and uncomfortable the entire way through. As we saw through MLG, if the expenses are covered, the players will fly out even if the prize pool is much smaller.
NASL has done well trying to do what they can, but the fact of the matter is they still aren't covering a reasonable amount for their finalists.
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On August 17 2011 13:21 TDN3 wrote:
Well, I went to both MLG Anaheim and NASL finals and I can tell you that it was like the difference between a company run tournament and tournament ran by a couple of starcraft buddies. No wonder everyone wants to come back to MLG even though it has shitty prize pool. Obviously, they had much better experience there at MLG.
MLG have been doing events for years.
This was the first of NASL.
Don't to retarded comparsions.
GSL and OSL sucked in the beginning too. (I know, I was there.)
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On August 17 2011 13:25 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 13:08 Xeris wrote:
We provided shuttle pickup and drop off services to all players at the finals. I'm not sure why he is commenting about something he wasn't there to witness T_T Haha.
Don't pull a nony milkis, you gotta explain your comment quickly or this is gonna be several pages of speculation.
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god for the last time, this whole "treat us good or we won't come" is logical and doesn't apply to any other tournament because NASL is something you have to devote a A LOT OF fuckin time for. 9 fuckin weeks, play at 4 am, wait 2 hours because your opponent doesn't show up, get 1st in your group, pay $80 to go to the venue, wait more than 5 hours, lose on 2 maps, and your whole 9 weeks spent is WORTHLESS. That was pretty much slayersBoxer, the fuckin emperor. Tell me, after going through that, wouldn't you want some more demands?
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On August 17 2011 13:18 HolyArrow wrote:
This is kind of dumb because no matter what Koreans say, we have Xeris and perhaps other NASL representatives in this very topic, which just doesn't make for a balanced debate - neither does SotG. I'm not saying that Xeris or anyone else is blatantly lying or something like that, but it's just that when you have 2 sides of an argument, and the best 1 side can do to communicate is post articles while the other side can directly interact with the rest of the community, it doesn't make for a balanced discussion. I'd rather have a direct interaction between a representative of the NASL and representatives of Korean teams in a discussion, because this constantly indirect releasing of opinions and arguments from either side just... doesn't seem to work.
The difference between professionals releasing official statements and interviews, and amateur starcraft buddy organizers trying to make big bucks off fans' subscription fees.
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EPT
