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I am facepalming at a lot of the comments here, they seem to be just flame posts based purely off ignorant beliefs. I feel like NASL shouldn't have come out with a thread bashing the Koreans for not cooperating, and instead should have discussed it first and released the post on an official channel. Also, it seems as if Koreans are having a hard time communicating with NASL, perhaps if communications were better than accommodations would be accounted for, considering $2000 is way more than enough. But I could totally see the problem coming off a plane into a foreign country with nobody to really help. Seems very unprofessional on NASL's behalf.
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On August 17 2011 16:04 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:00 Lamphead wrote:
I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable. I agree with you for the most part, but I think a large reason why this became a huge problem is that the Koreans initiated negotiations but didn't follow up on them, didn't seem to take them seriously, didn't provide a clear contact for the negotiations (in fact, hid the people behind the negotiations). I really truly feel that if team managers had gone to NASL directly, things would have ended differently and many Koreans would still be participating. INstead, they decided to sign contracts, then band together and pressure the remaining to band or be shamed, told someone to tell someone who got Mr.Chae to translate to tell NASL that they have concerns, and then responded to the concerns 15 days later, 2 days after filming started. Pretty pathetic attempt at negotiating. It's not a simple matter of expressing displeasure and asking for more, because they actually never did that.
yeah, that was pretty dumb of the Koreans. Koreans are still more in the wrong..Personally I think what happened was that they assumed NASL had realized what a terrible time Korea had mainly in traveling here and accommodations in the first season and they assumed they would solve all these problems with a cherry on top (because that would be the Korean way of doing things) (They might have even thought it would be rude to demand more, ironically). Obviously NASL would only respond to direct complaint, as American customer service goes, but I feel like Korea didn't realize that.
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United States214 Posts
On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there.
I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out.
This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory.
Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid.
Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much."
Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself.
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MVP coach isnt being very truthful in the interview
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lol NASL did bash the Koreans. They handled them leaving highly unprofessionally. What the announcement should've said is "We regret to inform you that the Korean teams will be withdrawing from NASL 2 due to conflict of interests. We are working hard to get them back for NASL 3."
Simple. No drama caused. But no they had to bash them.
Koreans don't want to deal with unprofessional associations. MLG handles their shit. They pick the players up themselves. They don't set up a shuttle service and tell them to pay $80 right when they get off the plane. That says "We don't value you as a player enough to pick you up in person," and the Koreans didn't like that. MLG picks the players up themselves, and they treat them well. I'll bet you that they'd have covered the Koreans that paid to fly over in terms of being picked up.
Accommodate the players from the start. Don't tell them "We're picking you up, give us $80," right off the get go. You cover that small bit of transport yourselves without paying and watch how quickly they'll like you. Don't shove it in their face that they have to pay. Pay that for them and it shows you value them as a competitor.
And then be sure to fix your flawed format. Bo5 or Double Elim. Don't make the players wait so long for matches or fly over on a 15 hour flight just so they can lose in an hour. Fix your tournament format and they'll come. It's not that hard.
It's not big things, it's little things. NASL can fix these things. I hope they will so that you all can see Koreans dominating another tournament again.
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people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
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I think this is actually a really positive article/translation. Much better than the PlayXP article which made SC2Con seem like they are making decisions for the players.
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On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no?
In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
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NASL, so disappointing. I gotta say that Coach Choi makes a lot of sense on his allegations, he cant be lying, so bad. Mr.Choi said "poor operation" when asked about NASL production, thats sad. Things r not looking good these days for this League, hope they dont just chicken out and disappear but rather step it up and bring us an Awesome NASL Season 2. Looking forward to it ^^
e-Sports FTW!!!
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United States214 Posts
On August 17 2011 16:09 Lamphead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:04 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 16:00 Lamphead wrote:
I have not delved into Korean culture much at all, but I know, as a person of Chinese culture, for a fact that everybody who doesn't understand the "Korean traditional values" thing does not understand the Korean system of respect at all. This is so much more a cultural thing that I'd never expect an American to understand, and it's showing now.
The only thing Korea has done wrong is leave NASL after they signed the contract, which is probably as a result of misunderstanding the terms of agreement..still Korea's fault anyways. But beyond that..
Why is Korea wrong for demanding more? They treat their guests far better than NASL ever has, and they have a right to ask for accommodation and decline invitations if they don't want them as well. They didn't demand anything, they expressed displeasure, asked for more, were not given something to their liking, and declined, albeit after they signed the contract.
You guys are forgetting that just as they are not obligated to special lucrative extras, we are not obligated to see them persevere through what they perceive as disrespectful and probably too unprofitable. I agree with you for the most part, but I think a large reason why this became a huge problem is that the Koreans initiated negotiations but didn't follow up on them, didn't seem to take them seriously, didn't provide a clear contact for the negotiations (in fact, hid the people behind the negotiations). I really truly feel that if team managers had gone to NASL directly, things would have ended differently and many Koreans would still be participating. INstead, they decided to sign contracts, then band together and pressure the remaining to band or be shamed, told someone to tell someone who got Mr.Chae to translate to tell NASL that they have concerns, and then responded to the concerns 15 days later, 2 days after filming started. Pretty pathetic attempt at negotiating. It's not a simple matter of expressing displeasure and asking for more, because they actually never did that. yeah, that was pretty dumb of the Koreans. Koreans are still more in the wrong..Personally I think what happened was that they assumed NASL had realized what a terrible time Korea had mainly in traveling here and accommodations in the first season and they assumed they would solve all these problems with a cherry on top (because that would be the Korean way of doing things) (They might have even thought it would be rude to demand more, ironically). Obviously NASL would only respond to direct complaint, as American customer service goes, but I feel like Korea didn't realize that.
Agreed. There seems to be an issue of miscommunication but also an issue of clashing of cultures.
I think that's reflected in several ways, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard from my Korean friends that Koreans do not take contracts to be completely binding. In addition, it is customary that people who make decisions and people who deal in negotiations are not the one and the same, whereas in US/Europe they typically are.
I feel like NASL expected that the people they were talking to knew the situation and had the power and influence to make decisions, but didn't...and when they wanted to talk to the person in charge, they were denied that right. This led to a lot of frustration on both sides I feel, and a lot of miscommunication resulted from middle-men.
I understand some of the Korean complaints...not time or server because those have been addressed, but the waiting around time, and why they overall got a negative impression. But I feel that, that's more on the Korean's side to make the effort to express. So I feel that, even though it may not be customary in their culture, the team manager should have directly talked to NASL in a timely manner.
I really don't get the feeling that NASL consists of these big jerks that go, "AHAHAHA WE DON'T CARE." I'm sure if the concerns/feedback was expressed, they would have listened to it.
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On August 17 2011 16:09 Xaerkar wrote:
I am facepalming at a lot of the comments here, they seem to be just flame posts based purely off ignorant beliefs. I feel like NASL shouldn't have come out with a thread bashing the Koreans for not cooperating, and instead should have discussed it first and released the post on an official channel. Also, it seems as if Koreans are having a hard time communicating with NASL, perhaps if communications were better than accommodations would be accounted for, considering $2000 is way more than enough. But I could totally see the problem coming off a plane into a foreign country with nobody to really help. Seems very unprofessional on NASL's behalf.
What part of "Xeris was personally at the airport the entire day to personally greet every Korean participant with a translator" don't you understand? It is obvious that there was a lack of communication between the Korean players and the NASL especially when the Korean players decided to tell the NASL they weren't playing a few days before they were scheduled to play after they had signed a contract saying they would play.
*edit
Why does this rumor that all the Koreans payed 80$ for a shuttle service still exist? There have been multiple people from the NASL that have posted saying this is not true.
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On August 17 2011 16:10 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
from the NASL post
[quote]
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid. Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much." Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself.
Whether someone is at fault has nothing to do with whether a thread is inflammatory.
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Until NASL changes their management (starting with Xeris), they will always be seen as a bunch of amateurs. They failed at everything there was to fail in Season 1 and I expect the same in Season 2.
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Why is Coach Choi and other coaches expecting accomodations? Like CatZ said, if they want to compete in foreign tournaments, they should put their own money towards it to show their respect. That said, I do realize the Gom house is very helpful for foreigners, but still, you have sponsors for a reason. I like that Koreans can come to MLGs but I don't like that MLG has to pay them to come here.
For NASL, they run such an amateur production and tournament (late on games, stream issues, horrible interviewers hired) I would not want to be associated with it.
It's like Coach Choi said, I have nothing against NASL as well. It's just that right now they are not professional enough. Ask anyone to compare NASL to GSL and they choose GSL (despite the recent Gom security hack. Ugh.)
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if the top 16 players at the playoffs were from the NA, that would seriously lower travel costs. Seems like the NA players need to help the NASL out a bit more..
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United States214 Posts
On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar..
Well, consider this, like the PainUser situation. NASL loses several hundred dollars for each hour that a player doesn't show up without warning, because the staff have to sit there on hand waiting to see if the player shows up.
When you consider it like that, it makes sense why there is a deposit. It makes sure that the other side will either show up or say ahead of time that they won't be showing up. Whether you morally agree or not, money is a big motivator. If someone stands to lose money, they are more likely to abide by rules.
I think that's the goal of the deposits...to make sure players abide by scheduling rules. If they do, they get the deposit back .
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On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
the point of my post was not to make you think about why the deposit is included in NASL. the point of my post was to get you to see that even for you, something that you think is fundamentally and logically sound like paying for your meal after you receive the food would be perceived as disrespectful if that changed.
my point is you don't know how Koreans think of the deposit. They think of it more as a show of distrust from both sides. Not to mention they did not return the money immediately. If you don't understand the Korean culture, which you or I can't, then I would refrain from bashing them. This goes for the entire dispute in general.
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wow i didnt realize the Koreans who lost at Ro16 were actually losing 500 dollars...thats pretty bad =/
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United States214 Posts
On August 17 2011 16:15 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:10 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:
[quote]
Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. Bad example. There is nothing faulty about Huk leaving Liquid. Perhaps there is some things that are inherently inflammatory about the NASL post because they are inherently negative....like Koreans turning down a fairly considerate and the best that NASL can offer...this is not the NASL's fault...it is a purely objective fact, but it can trigger negative emotions in people because many people can respond by saying, "Koreans demand too much." Basically like emotionally charged objective statements if that makes sense...but that's due to the situation not due to the post or the wording itself. Whether someone is at fault has nothing to do with whether a thread is inflammatory.
Yes, actually there is. Because if somebody is at fault, it affects how people perceive statements, and they are likely to perceive them in a more negative way, and are thus likelier to think that the wording itself is causing them to feel that rather than the situation.
E.g. let's say Koreans did not sign contracts. Then first of all, it would have been before the season started filming. So instead the post would have read, "The Koreans have chosen not to participate in Season 2 because of some disagreements about contracts."
See how that automatically seems less inflammatory? That's because the situation itself is less negative. The wording follows the same style as the original post.
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Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest.
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EPT
