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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
1) No one said anything about All of the players, this is specifically about helping non-native language speaking people in a foreign country.
2) The GSL provides full transportation to and from the Gom studios for those living in the Gom House, aka foreigners. MLG does the same for the korean players who are invited, often times booking hotels right next to the venues to prevent confusion, and having assigned staff to pick up players from the airport. (@MLG Anaheim, players were greeted by a Limosine)
3) The GSL pays for the flight for those who qualify to Code A via the MLG exchange program, and the Gom House is 100% free rent for those who are invited, so accommodations are taken care of. Food however is not, but is understandable. MLG does the same for the korean players who are invited, providing them with transportation expenses and rooms.
4)What does this have to do with how sc2 tournaments are run. And yes, at some of the majors, the top seeded players are provided full accommodations at the venues themselves including room and board.
5) I dunno do they? Do you know if they do or not?
6) Yes, see above.
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This article really didnt help the koreans argument. All i heard was, "NASL isn't as good as the GSL. It is not in Korea, thus it is inferior and we do not have to support it."
You cant expect something of this magnitude to be perfect the first time around. I got the feeling they(NASL) were trying to improve and still are. A $2000 Travel stipend Korean players were offered was more than enough to offer incentive as most foreign players aren't offered an incentive to go to Korea.
Its Greed and Selfishness at its best....
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They're now telling the NASL theys hould apologize for what they've done so far? No...I completely disagree with what the Koreans are doing now, they're trying to save face way too badly. The requests they ask are to be treated like royalty as opposed to the way that esports events in the foreign scene have been for 15 years.
I'd rather them not play than have all these demands begged for.
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On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest.
Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
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On August 17 2011 16:19 Lamphead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? the point of my post was not to make you think about why the deposit is included in NASL. the point of my post was to get you to see that even for you, something that you think is fundamentally and logically sound like paying for your meal after you receive the food would be perceived as disrespectful if that changed. my point is you don't know how Koreans think of the deposit. They think of it more as a show of distrust from both sides. Not to mention they did not return the money immediately. If you don't understand the Korean culture, which you or I can't, then I would refrain from bashing them. This goes for the entire dispute in general.
Then don't sign up. duh.
Implicit in signing a contract for season 1 and 2 is you agree with it.
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On August 17 2011 16:12 b_unnies wrote:
MVP coach isnt being very truthful in the interview
Do you want to clarify?
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On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:31 whateverpeeps wrote:
[quote]
All I have to say buddy is that you are reading something into that post that really isn't there.
I saw not one phrase of bashing. All I saw was, "This is what happened. We are disappointed." Disappointed is probably the closest you actually get to a negative emotion, and it simply refers to the face that they're not happy with how negotiations turned out.
This article does more "bashing" and even it's not actually bashing. from the NASL post We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal. We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season. straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph. The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory.
1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes.
2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point.
3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans.
Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted
Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them.
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I think this whole farce came about because the Korean team managements wanted to push the envelope of how they are being treated in foreign competitions. If the foreign players are getting the same treatments as what the Korean team managers demanded in Korea, for an event that is similar to the NASL, then it's not unreasonable to expect the same from NASL, except there may be a lot more Koreans compete in NASL than there are foreigners competing in Korea (maybe?).
Also the Korean team managers need to understand the key role of self-sustenance of competitors in the West. In NZ, even members of some of our national teams need to get part jobs just to support themselves during training and raise money to make it to oversea competitions. The Korean team managers talk about respect, but how about pay some respect to their host, i.e., NASL, to begin with huh?
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners.
Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
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On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem?
Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble.
Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea
Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players
no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen
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On August 17 2011 15:53 Kreb wrote:
Does any other league pay for flight and accomodation of all players?
Does GSL pay (the i would guess rather limited) travel costs for Koreans to the GOM studio?
Does GSL pay flight and accomodation costs for foreigners giving Code A qualifiers a shot?
Does random tennis tournaments around the world pay flight and accomodation of all players?
Does FIFA pay teams' flight and accomodation costs at World Cup?
Does it work like that anywhere in sports or esports?
Dont compare this to actual sports.
Those National Teams have millions upon millions of dollars backing them. Tennis players have so much money behind them. That's like trying to bring up Messi and compare him to Puma being like "Messi can pay for his stuff why can't Puma?" That's just ignorant bringing in players that make millions play soccer and tennis into a conversation about Korean teams who at times struggle to eat.
Koreans don't have money. Foreigners do. It's as simple as that.
On August 17 2011 16:29 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners. Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
History doesn't bring sponsors. BW is still the game in Korea. The sponsors are there. Not in SC2.
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NASL should take better care of the players, including pick up from the airport, accomodations, and scheduling, instead of focusing only on the broadcast
ok broadcast was terrible... i cant image how horrible it was for the players then
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On August 17 2011 16:27 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:05 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:42 NHY wrote:On August 17 2011 15:16 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 15:07 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:57 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:48 Kaneh wrote:On August 17 2011 14:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 17 2011 14:40 Kaneh wrote:
[quote]
from the NASL post
[quote]
straight up "son I'm dissapoint" from NASL. Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.
The entire post was trying to drum up emotions instead of being factual news. This is the exact kinda stuff that makes NASL appear like a very amateur organization to me and a signifigant number of people. Please do your research, that is exactly what happened. The koreans played their qualifiers, before the S1 grand finals. Then even after they saw how they were "treated" they still went ahead and signed the contracts for S2. Then after that is when they brought up their concerns to NASL right before S2 was about to start, and then pulled out after 2 days of filming had already happened. That's pretty much the definition of waiting till the final hour. i agree. it is what happened. I'm making the point that NASL handled it very, very, very poorly and that the post is inflammatory and not professional. Then why say that there was 'Not a single hard fact in that entire paragraph.' when it was actually factual. And I don't see anything that is inflammatory or not professional. Please highlight what parts you feel are inflammatory. well, that's your opinion, and this is my opinion. and a significant number of people (including the koreans) agree with me, enough for that post to be an issue. I can't convince you the post is inflammatory, but you can see from the responses from me, other people in this and the other thread, and the koreans, that the post generated ill-will. the results speak for themselves You keep saying the post was inflammatory and non professional. All I want is for you to highlight which parts you feel are that way. Just a few examples is all I'm saying. If it's really that bad, that should be no problem And why do you bring up the issue of a 'significant number of people agree with me'? Is it supposed to impress me? I wouldn't care if I was the only one with my viewpoint in this entire thread. Citing numbers as a way to say you're right doesn't guarantee you are. A 'significant number of people' believe that the USA was behind 9/11 or that the Holocaust didn't happen. Does that make them right? I don't think so. "...Korean teams threatened to withdraw from the NASL..." "...they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]..." "...We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come..." 1) The koreans did threaten to withdraw and then actually did it!! What, is 'threaten' to harsh of a word for you?? 2) That's how the koreans felt, it wasn't a lie or an exaggeration. 3) What the hell is inflammatory about this statement?? They felt is was a fair offer and that's what they stated. 1) It is inflammatory. People are calling it a negotiation for a reason. 2) It wasn't a complete lie but it is somewhat misleading in a way that paints bad pictures for them. 3) They have stated their opinion, which Koreans clearly disagree, in a way that would arouse hostility. In my book, that's an inflammatory remark. This isn't about right or wrong. It's just PR and NASL didn't do a good job with their thread. See EG - Liquid posting about Huk. No one is calling it inflammatory. 1) Koreans: We want this, this, and this, if we don't get them, we are pulling out. Call it negotiations or a threat, its semantics at that point. Either way still not inflammatory, very blunt yes. 2) Not a lie in any sense whatsoever or misleading at all. The koreans didn't want to pay the deposit, even the coach of MVP said so. Again blunt and to the point. 3) There is nothing that statement that could arouse hostility unless the person reading it is looking for the slightest reason to get angry. Which I think is what is happening. I think people like you are looking for the tinniest reason to get mad because you feel that NASL has insulted the koreans. Honestly at this point I feel like NASL could have come out and said in their original statement, "Hey its ALL our fault that the koreans aren't coming. Blame us, they did nothing wrong" and you would still fault NASL just because A) people are looking to smash NASL, whether its justified or not and B) The Koreans didn't get what they wanted Don't get me wrong, NASL isn't innocent in this whole thing. There alot of things they could have handled better but the original statement and its wording isn't one of them.
Ugh, if NASL had done that there would still be a slew of comments saying, "Oh they're just trying to get sympathy!" and equally negative remarks. The thing is if you want to see something negative and offensive, you will. That's how the mind works.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
So because they are poor everyone should pay for them?
How about you start searching sponsors, start to search for ways to get money
like streaming or coaching?
Did root whine to MLG that they don't have sponsors, requesting their expenses get paid? Don't make me laugh.
It's not like the west is a fountain of money.
Many teams / clans / players have to actively search for sponsors or ways to get to money.
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lol asking for apologize.. bullshit.they are the one who should apologize for breaking the contract,delaying the S2,and trying to kill NASL league (remember what kespa did to gom?)
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant.
Oh, I was unaware that Ukrainian and Chinese players had money flowing out of their fingertips. I was also unaware that having less money gives you the right to demand more accommodation than other people who are competing at relatively the same time online and have just as long a flight to the US to compete in the finals. I completely agree with tdt.
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On August 17 2011 16:30 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:14 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 17 2011 16:13 Lamphead wrote:
people hating on Koreans disliking security deposits are ridiculous. Would you be pleased if restaurants asked you to pay upfront before they delivered your food? Probably not, right? Why is that, although it makes perfect sense? It's because it's /gasp/ not culturally accepted and /gasp/ disrespectful. Wow, those terms sound awfully familiar.. do you pay a deposit if you rent an apartment yes or no? In most countries you do and you do that so you just dont bail overnight. Deposit its a smart idea and protect the tournament that invest alot of time and money into each player. And you will be getting the money back so what is the problem? Fact: Deposit was introduced to hold players responsible who cause trouble. Fact: the only players who caused trouble were those outside Korea Fact: from a Korean point of view, such a deposit is insulting and doubts the professionalism of the players no matter who is at fault, it is easy to see how this conflict came to happen
Also a fact: Americans tend to do things across the board, meaning no special treatment. Yes, it was mostly the foreigners who failed to show up on time for matches, thus making a need for security deposits. HOWEVER, because American culture is one where equality and evenness are praised, that rule has to be applied to ALL the players.
I think we have all spent a long time talking about how Korean culture should be considered, but this is a case where American culture needs to be considered by the Koreans. After all, it is an American business run by Americans in America. This is how law, contracts and such work in the US. I think in most cases, a contract saying X group has to pay but Y group doesn't would be an illegal contract in the US, which is probably why NASL didn't even consider it.
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On August 17 2011 16:29 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 16:26 Femari wrote:On August 17 2011 16:24 tdt wrote:
Still sound like babies to me. I didnt hear any foreigners whining and they won A LOT less money so should have more reason to QQ for their pitance. Whitera and Sen even stayed over a bit to help promote so they seemed happy.
Then there is not so little matter of signing contract for season 2 then trying to put NASL over the barrel with threats to quit unless they get their way. Talk about dishonest. Foreigners may win less money overall but they have money to begin with unlike Koreans. So that's irrelevant. Then the question become why do foreigners have money and Korean don't. Koreans have had a much longer history in e sports than foreigners. Perhaps they should ask themselves that question and change accordingly instead of demanding money from tournaments that are already offering money on top of pretty giant prize pools.
I do not think that foreign teams have more money per se. Some might, some do not.
But in Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible for training the players, they organize a team house and coaches. The team takes care that their players are top notch and the tournaments who wants them to play has to pay for flight and hotel if they want the top players to participate in live events.
Outside Korea, a team is mainly (financially) responsible of flying their players to tournaments.
This is only the financial side, there are other main differences between foreign and Korean teams, for example I bet you would've heard an apology from the team if one of their players decide to blow a showmatch by attacking his own command center at the beginning of the game and throwing angry comments at the organizer who organized the prize money after he asked him what just happened.
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On August 17 2011 16:33 vertical101 wrote:
lol asking for apologize.. bullshit.they are the one who should apologize for breaking the contract,delaying the S2,and trying to kill NASL league (remember what kespa did to gom?)
Wasn't Kespa, the Teams pulled their players out.
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On August 17 2011 16:26 Zlasher wrote:
They're now telling the NASL theys hould apologize for what they've done so far? No...I completely disagree with what the Koreans are doing now, they're trying to save face way too badly. The requests they ask are to be treated like royalty as opposed to the way that esports events in the foreign scene have been for 15 years.
I'd rather them not play than have all these demands begged for.
I agree, NASL went through TL, the community website to clear this up after the Koreans decided to use brinksmanship, bringing it to the final hour until they decided to pull out of NASL seeding. I am glad that NASL tried to meet their demands, but bending over backwards to please them isn't fair to the Americans and the Europeans who pay their way in also.
I wish this drama didn't have to go down and we could just see some good games.
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EPT
