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On April 23 2014 00:29 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring.
I don't understand people who watch because of Race instead of watching because they love the game/player.
For example, as a hockey fan I don't only watch when a person of my race plays.
When dating, I don't only ask them out if they are my race.
Its just weird.
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On April 23 2014 01:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 00:29 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring. I don't understand people who watch because of Race instead of watching because they love the game/player. For example, as a hockey fan I don't only watch when a person of my race plays. When dating, I don't only ask them out if they are my race. Its just weird.
In sports, most people actually only watch their own team play, which is what you should compare it too.
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On April 23 2014 01:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 00:29 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring. I don't understand people who watch because of Race instead of watching because they love the game/player. For example, as a hockey fan I don't only watch when a person of my race plays. When dating, I don't only ask them out if they are my race. Its just weird.
Because hockey is hockey. A girl is a girl (or a guy a guy), a Terran is not a Protoss and a Protoss makes no Zerglings.
People like watching their own race to steal strategies, get inspired, learn stuff. If I play Terran, PvP ZvZ PvZ are another game to the one I play, and thus, why would I feel obliged to show interest in them.
I'm getting pretty bored of PvZ ZvZ PvP at the highest level as well, to be honest. This is a 6 matchup game, of which 3 are sadly near extinction for quite a while (proleague excluded), which is obviously going to take it's toll on viewership.
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On April 23 2014 01:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 00:29 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring. I don't understand people who watch because of Race instead of watching because they love the game/player. For example, as a hockey fan I don't only watch when a person of my race plays. When dating, I don't only ask them out if they are my race. Its just weird.
Wow ^^. These examples are really terrible :D.
I can totally understand that some people prefer to watch games with terran in them.
If you just look at the proleague youtube channel (esportstv) and compare the number of views, you will also see that games with terran participation do better.
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People like to watch things that they can relate to.
I end up watching a lot of games with Protoss because I play Protoss and it's simply more relatable. Also because I can steal strategies that I like.
I played Terran only for like two months and found myself watching a lot more TvT and TvZ.
I actually just enjoy watching StarCraft so I watch all the MUs now (not just Protoss), especially if it's a player I like such as MMA or Snute.
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On April 23 2014 01:55 DinoMight wrote:
People like to watch things that they can relate to.
I end up watching a lot of games with Protoss because I play Protoss and it's simply more relatable. Also because I can steal strategies that I like.
I played Terran only for like two months and found myself watching a lot more TvT and TvZ.
I actually just enjoy watching StarCraft so I watch all the MUs now (not just Protoss), especially if it's a player I like such as MMA or Snute.
I'm a player watcher myself. Get Scarlett on screen and you'll know that I am one of the viewers.
When I want to learn a specific strategy I also player hunt, looking for the play style of a specific person to learn from. I guess the concept of looking at a random match to see a random race play is just strange to me.
I sometimes seek out new players to see their skill. For example, in the first Proleague once they did the full jump to SC2 I threw in Wookie into my team because "yay Starwars" but when he earned me some solid points I started tracking Zest more and more.
I guess I just don't get the appeal of arbitrarily picking a race outside of picking a player who happens to play a specific race.
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I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a fuck about them.
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On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a fuck about them.
I think people underestimate the advantages of knowing how to play all the races. Even if you main Protoss (like me) knowing how to play T and Z helps you play better as P. Also you can offrace once in a while for fun and it makes watching TvT ZvZ and TvZ more fun.
Well, maybe not ZvZ :p
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On April 23 2014 02:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a fuck about them. I think people underestimate the advantages of knowing how to play all the races. Even if you main Protoss (like me) knowing how to play T and Z helps you play better as P. Also you can offrace once in a while for fun and it makes watching TvT ZvZ and TvZ more fun. Well, maybe not ZvZ :p
What you feel for ZvZ, I feel for PvP.
Mirrors are just a lot harder because you really need to grasp the matchup well, they are a ton more mechanical/tactical than the non-mirrors, which allow for more space for styles.
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On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them.
I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more.
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Playing protoss makes you feel dirty 
Protoss is more like I have this boom stick you better be wearing the right armor
Whereas Terran is more like running through the jungle full speed with a machete.
What sounds like more fun
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On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game.
13 different Terrans = The best of the best. While 15 different Zerg and 18 different Protoss were played this round. I'd agree that the amount of Protoss is quite big, but it's not like barely andy Terrans were used.
And since you mentioned ZvT:
Cure - Hydra/RorO: I'd argue the Zergs were the favorites there.
Life - Fantasy/aLive: Life's the favorite there, imo.
Byul - KeeN: Again... Byul > KeeN
(Dark - Dream and Rogue - Reality... well, I've no idea who^s favored there :-P )
It's not like your "best of the best Ts" were smashed by random Zergs this round. I think most people expected the results the way they happened.
I'm just saying: Your Proleague argument is invalid :-P
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On April 23 2014 03:36 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. 13 different Terrans = The best of the best. While 15 different Zerg and 18 different Protoss were played this round. I'd agree that the amount of Protoss is quite big, but it's not like barely andy Terrans were used. And since you mentioned ZvT: Cure - Hydra/RorO: I'd argue the Zergs were the favorites there. Life - Fantasy/aLive: Life's the favorite there, imo. Byul - KeeN: Again... Byul > KeeN (Dark - Dream and Rogue - Reality... well, I've no idea who^s favored there :-P ) It's not like your "best of the best Ts" were smashed by random Zergs this round. I think most people expected the results the way they happened. I'm just saying: Your Proleague argument is invalid :-P
I'd say Cure = Hydra < RorO
Life < Fantasy, Alive wildcard
Byul = Keen
Dark < Dream and Rogue = Reality
That's what I'd say
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On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more.
I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play?
The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$.
I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I mean it's all well and good appreciating good play wherever it comes from, for me it's not that Terrans aren't winning tournaments that puts me off, it's that there's few of them even in the latter stages of late. Hopefully it switches around soon, but I prefer the gamestate when you see a good smattering of all three races competing in the more prestigious tournaments.
IEM Cologne was by a distance my favourite tournament of late, not just because there was a bit more Terran interest but also due to the overall quality of some of the series.
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On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM.
Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style;
1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control
2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them.
3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map.
Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped.
Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play.
4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass.
5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts.
Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results.
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On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM.
Your post tells us more about your style and level of play rather than about what is required out of a Terran to play versus a Protoss.
But yes, Hider is wrong to think that Protoss race is boring and mechanics don't matter for Protoss. That is an incorrect statement to make.
My concern is how much decision-making and mechanic is required for one side over the other. Terran HAS to drop. Protoss can drop/warp - but Storms and Collosi give the Protoss advantage in most straight up, maxed-out, army clashes. Terran HAS to play bio against Protoss as well. Protoss can open various styles with viable transitions into late game. Seriously, with all the things that Protoss do to surprise a Terran - what is a Terran's big surprise? 2 Rax Proxy?
I just disagree with your self-evidently biased portrayal of decision-making when playing as a Terran.
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TY and Inno at dreamhack Maybe T will finally win sth., but still the lineup is pretty sick.
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But yes, Hider is wrong to think that Protoss race is boring and mechanics don't matter for Protoss. That is an incorrect statement to make.
Ofc mechanics matter, but everyone who has tried to play both races, knows that there is a huge difference in how you play the races. Your going to see a much higher correlation between mechanics and success if you play terran than if you play toss. I think no high level protosses actually denies that. For instance Harstem made a similar remark on Meta and Naniwa said the same thing when Thorin interviewed him.
I really really hate the whole decision-argument, because its not at all what makes Starcraft great IMO. Think about it this way: Every single sport/game in the world has strategy/decision-making into it. But Starcraft is the only game where mechanics matter this much. Its completley unique in that regard and almost all highlight videos of the game involve some crazy micro for one player.
Have you ever seen a Reddit thread where everyone went crazy over how player XX went Mutas at 12:30 instead of 13:30 becasue he scouted xx at time YY? Like those types of decisions/strategy-elements aren't particularly exicting and isn't what is making the game fun to play.
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On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results.
Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong
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EPT
