|
On April 20 2014 19:31 llaMWell wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 13:56 Mutineer wrote:
What all people who quate win rate between races do not understand, win rate does not indicate ballance, it indicate change.
Why? Because if one race stronger then other then if on ladder, one race will start to drop it's mmr and mmr of second race will start to increase until win rate balanced on 50%. The same try for competitions. One race start to drop until it will play easier opponents. At the end win rate again stop at 50%.
What REAL indicator of balance is race representation on top level. If one race underrepresented, that mean it fall down until only absolutly best members of that race can compete on this level. This guy gets it.
Except that he also indirectly responded to me, and I have been trying to explain this concept so many times for the last 1-2 years.. Good that it seems I am not alone in the battle against ignorance.
I think its important to understand though that matchup XvY can still favor race X even if race X never once (historically) had a win/rate over 50%.
For instance, due to protoss killing terrans over the last 8 months, terran is now quite underpresented while zerg is doing somewhat okay'ish, but on ladder and in tournament. Now, even if TvZ is 50-50, true balanced win/rates should favor terran.
Thus, the only actual useful to look at naked win/rates without taking distribution into account is to looke at the short-term change in win/rates as this indicates changes in balance.
To look at win/rates an absolutel level, one would need to take distribution into account as well.
|
I see some protoss advocates trying to shift the blame zerg for the decline of terran but I frankly think TvZ is at an OK place. I see any code S level T or Z going toe to toe in every game against each other on even footing. TvP on the other hand.. uphill battle for T from beginning to end.
Having said that, I think the blame lies on GOM/Kespa and their nonsensical maps. Too many anti-terran/pro-toss maps.
|
On April 21 2014 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
I see some protoss advocates trying to shift the blame zerg for the decline of terran but I frankly think TvZ is at an OK place. I see any code S level T or Z going toe to toe in every game against each other on even footing. TvP on the other hand.. uphill battle for T from beginning to end.
Having said that, I think the blame lies on GOM/Kespa and their nonsensical maps. Too many anti-terran/pro-toss maps.
They need to bring back. Steppes of War.
But really I think the issue is that Pre-Hots Terran relied alot on early game damage to be on even footing with the Protoss. This was perfectly fine, until Protoss pretty much became immune to early game damage with the inclusion of their many new defensive tools.
Couple that together with tons of new ways for Protoss to damage Terran economy.
And larger maps, with Terran being a very immobile race. Yes our builds can move, but Terran units are neither fast nor do they insta warp in the middle of the map.
|
Alterzim and Frost LE should be removed from the map pool. Those two maps are such an eye sore and a boredom.
Even with nerfed mines and Hellbats, Terrans would fare much better on maps like Neo Planet S and Bel'shire Vestiage, against both Z and P. Think about it. (Heck, even mech v. P would be viable on those maps with combined upgrades)
|
For those who think that TvZ is balanced watch Jinair vs Samsung.
This is just disgusting, unless you are Maru, you have absolutely no chance of winning a game.
|
On April 21 2014 19:45 TW wrote:
For those who think that TvZ is balanced watch Jinair vs Samsung.
This is just disgusting, unless you are Maru, you have absolutely no chance of winning a game.
so basically TvP and TvZ are impossible unless you are Maru? lol
|
On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes.
simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you
innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist.
|
On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist.
The underdog jjakji won against Vortix and the no-name MMA fought evenly against the giants TLO and Snute some weeks ago. How can you not see T is strong in this matchup?
|
On April 21 2014 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
I see some protoss advocates trying to shift the blame zerg for the decline of terran but I frankly think TvZ is at an OK place. I see any code S level T or Z going toe to toe in every game against each other on even footing. TvP on the other hand.. uphill battle for T from beginning to end.
Having said that, I think the blame lies on GOM/Kespa and their nonsensical maps. Too many anti-terran/pro-toss maps.
Stats say otherwise
PvT is Terran favoured post last patch, TvZ is Zerg favoured
For Korea qualifiers and Code A
PvT 31–40 (43.66%)
PvZ 59–47 (55.66%)
TvZ 38–67 (36.19%)
|
found this and updated it
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FcRNNFz.png)
|
On April 21 2014 20:36 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 13:09 usethis2 wrote:
I see some protoss advocates trying to shift the blame zerg for the decline of terran but I frankly think TvZ is at an OK place. I see any code S level T or Z going toe to toe in every game against each other on even footing. TvP on the other hand.. uphill battle for T from beginning to end.
Having said that, I think the blame lies on GOM/Kespa and their nonsensical maps. Too many anti-terran/pro-toss maps. Stats say otherwise PvT is Terran favoured post last patch, TvZ is Zerg favoured For Korea qualifiers and Code A PvT 31–40 (43.66%) PvZ 59–47 (55.66%) TvZ 38–67 (36.19%)
This is unfair, all the good terrans are already in Code S and only the top zergs have to qualify
|
On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist.
If you retarget for Widow Mines during battles, the timer resets and they typically just die before getting anything off really.
IMO it would be a great change that A) would reward more practical micro + B) better balance if the timer didn't reset when you manually targeted with the Widow Mine.
|
On April 21 2014 21:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist. If you retarget for Widow Mines during battles, the timer resets and they typically just die before getting anything off really. IMO it would be a great change that A) would reward more practical micro + B) better balance if the timer didn't reset when you manually targeted with the Widow Mine. That also takes away some the retarget-until-you-see-something-you-actually-want-to-blow-up micro possibility, though. It may or may not be better for the game, just pointing out that you do lose something by changing it.
|
On April 21 2014 22:50 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 21:14 Hider wrote:On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist. If you retarget for Widow Mines during battles, the timer resets and they typically just die before getting anything off really. IMO it would be a great change that A) would reward more practical micro + B) better balance if the timer didn't reset when you manually targeted with the Widow Mine. That also takes away some the retarget-until-you-see-something-you-actually-want-to-blow-up micro possibility, though. It may or may not be better for the game, just pointing out that you do lose something by changing it.
Yeh, but that's also such an impractical form of micro. 1 year into HOTS and pro's still prefer unburrow them instead. I think if its a neccesity to have a type of micro where you can cancel/delay the shoot-proces, then I think its better to simply just add a "stop"-button to the Widow Mine, where you can manually cancel/restart the proces. Alternatively, there could be some type of passive-mode.
Not saying that there isn't situations where you wanna rerrererertarget Widow Mines and other situations where you want to manual target units with them, but in most situations its simply not practical, which IMO is a shame.
Over the past month, I spent a lot of time testing stuff in the Starcraft editor, and I was actually surprised by how much potential the game has. It has so many cool concepts and Blizzard has done a good job of identifiyng what type of units should be implemented for reach race. However, its also clear that they have spent little time in analyzing/tweaking stats in order to reward any type of practical micro. Widow Mine is obviously one example thereof, but basically all the units in the game could be so much more microrewarding if Blizzard had spent more time tweaking the stats/abilities of the units better.
|
On April 21 2014 22:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 22:50 RampancyTW wrote:On April 21 2014 21:14 Hider wrote:On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist. If you retarget for Widow Mines during battles, the timer resets and they typically just die before getting anything off really. IMO it would be a great change that A) would reward more practical micro + B) better balance if the timer didn't reset when you manually targeted with the Widow Mine. That also takes away some the retarget-until-you-see-something-you-actually-want-to-blow-up micro possibility, though. It may or may not be better for the game, just pointing out that you do lose something by changing it. Yeh, but that's also such an impractical form of micro. 1 year into HOTS and pro's still prefer unburrow them instead. I think if its a neccesity to have a type of micro where you can cancel/delay the shoot-proces, then I think its better to simply just add a "stop"-button to the Widow Mine, where you can manually cancel/restart the proces. Alternatively, there could be some type of passive-mode. Not saying that there isn't situations where you wanna rerrererertarget Widow Mines and other situations where you want to manual target units with them, but in most situations its simply not practical, which IMO is a shame. Over the past month, I spent a lot of time testing stuff in the Starcraft editor, and I was actually surprised by how much potential the game has. It has so many cool concepts and Blizzard has done a good job of identifiyng what type of units should be implemented for reach race. However, its also clear that they have spent little time in analyzing/tweaking stats in order to reward any type of practical micro. Widow Mine is obviously one example thereof, but basically all the units in the game could be so much more microrewarding if Blizzard had spent more time tweaking the stats/abilities of the units better.
Can you give some examples (other than WM's) of things you've found? I'm pretty curious. Especially within the Protoss as I think more micro for that race could be helpful
|
On April 21 2014 22:57 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2014 22:50 RampancyTW wrote:On April 21 2014 21:14 Hider wrote:On April 21 2014 20:21 shivver wrote:On April 20 2014 03:00 RampancyTW wrote:On April 20 2014 00:32 TW wrote:and still can be extremely powerful when properly targeted. During huge engagements v Zs, targeting is not possible. You simply just can't split your army and target every single WM. So at the current state Zs are just ignoring WMs. I dont mind leaving WMs as they are, maybe lets add some HP to hellbats so that they can tank more damage. You don't need to target every single one of them? As it stands now they're still cost effective if Z just ignores them and Terran doesn't target them, and they deal more or less damage depending on the level of micro either side commits to them. And I'd say Hellbats are tanky enough as-is. If anything I'd slightly buff the tank again, but I think the matchup will stabilize on its own without any changes. simply not true, if it was you'd actually see some terrans doing well. As it stands, there isn't going to be anybody on T side of things winning anything vs z in finals. I'm sure they can take a game or two off them in proleague, but the fact that maru is the only terran right now worth even talking about should speak volumes to you innovation, byun, Mvp.. they might as well not even exist. If you retarget for Widow Mines during battles, the timer resets and they typically just die before getting anything off really. IMO it would be a great change that A) would reward more practical micro + B) better balance if the timer didn't reset when you manually targeted with the Widow Mine. That also takes away some the retarget-until-you-see-something-you-actually-want-to-blow-up micro possibility, though. It may or may not be better for the game, just pointing out that you do lose something by changing it. Yeh, but that's also such an impractical form of micro. 1 year into HOTS and pro's still prefer unburrow them instead. I think if its a neccesity to have a type of micro where you can cancel/delay the shoot-proces, then I think its better to simply just add a "stop"-button to the Widow Mine, where you can manually cancel/restart the proces. Alternatively, there could be some type of passive-mode. Over the past month, I spent a lot of time testing stuff in the Starcraft editor, and I was actually surprised by how much potential the game has. It has so many cool concepts and Blizzard has done a good job of identifiyng what type of units should be implemented for reach race. However, its also clear that they have spent little time in analyzing/tweaking stats in order to reward any type of practical micro. Widow Mine is obviously one example thereof, but basically all the units in the game could be so much more microrewarding if Blizzard had spent more time tweaking the stats/abilities of the units better.
yeah, but that also takes an extensive amount of time for the game to be figured out first. Like, maybe end 2011/start 2012 I feel like we hit the first phase of the game were it would have actually started to make sense to do little tweaks to microability, since it was the first time macro and strategies revolving around knowing-what-the-opponent-will-exactly-have started to be on point and games on prolevel weren't decided mostly by "who-brings-how-many-units-to-the-party".
And a large part of the community and progamers simply is against any sort of change that isn't demanded by balance. HotS was a chance of course, but with that community-sentiment in mind, I believe it is the far safer - by far easier - way to not make too many big changes to existing units.
|
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game.
|
On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game.
well as a terran i still watch the game, just stopped playin it ^^
|
On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game.
Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring.
|
On April 23 2014 00:29 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 19:52 TW wrote:
Currently in round 3 Proleague, Z v T is 6:5 (although only the best of the best Ts are playing), Ts were smashed in Code A, only 4 in Code S, no tournament win since November , and because there are no balance updates from Blizzard, they must be pretty happy with the current balance.
The viewership is not growing because 33% of people, I mean T fans already stopped watching the game. Seconded. IMO, there's no reason for a Terran fan to watch pro SC2 right now. Foreign Terrans are even more nonexistant than ever. Korean Terrans are going extinct in GSL/WCS. Why set yourself up for inevitable disappointment? I might tune in for Maru only because he is simply enjoyable to watch, but watching Flash, Innovation, etc. be humiliated by second-string players is just boring.
TY's play is pretty awesome. And you can just watch SC for the sake of watching SC. I like watching a lot of them if I don't think about how stupid some of them can be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
