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On April 23 2014 05:25 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Your post tells us more about your style and level of play rather than about what is required out of a Terran to play versus a Protoss. But yes, Hider is wrong to think that Protoss race is boring and mechanics don't matter for Protoss. That is an incorrect statement to make. My concern is how much decision-making and mechanic is required for one side over the other. Terran HAS to drop. Protoss can drop/warp - but Storms and Collosi give the Protoss advantage in most straight up, maxed-out, army clashes. Terran HAS to play bio against Protoss as well. Protoss can open various styles with viable transitions into late game. Seriously, with all the things that Protoss do to surprise a Terran - what is a Terran's big surprise? 2 Rax Proxy?I just disagree with your self-evidently biased portrayal of decision-making when playing as a Terran.
I'm guessing you've never seen Dayshii play. The answer is infinity hellions.
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On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong
So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute?
Is that your final answer?
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On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong
Totally lack of arguments in your post. Very useful comment.
Like its untrue that you don't risk playing against Swarm Hosts as protoss?
Further, let's say up a scenario. 6 Marines vs 1 Oracle. Is there anything either player can do to become more cost effective? No right, all you can do is attack or retreat. That isn't really a true form of micro (since you basically a move). But indeed (as I pointed out) it adds multitasking to toss.
What interaction is there against blink stalkers? How can the opponent remicro against it?
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On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM.
This is my opinion and I can't prove shit, but imo the current high diversity of Protoss strategies (and likewise the limited range of viable solutions for Terran) is highly correlated to Protoss overall strength. It actually always has been the case in the past: the dominant race can seemingly do anything and everything, open with whatever, get scouted or not, and still win reliably, as long as the build and strategy makes "kinda sense". On the other hand, the weaker race has 1 or 2 somewhat decent builds, and has to press buttons faster than the other guy to achieve the same result (think 2010 ZvT, 1-1-1 era PvT, etc..).
The reason "insane stupid shit" doesn't work with Terran is because reasonable smart solid shit doesn't work that well to begin with.
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On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM.
It's funny that this is the conclusion you've come to after playing Terran when this is what I and many other Terran's have been arguing from the start. Protoss has too many options, Terran too few, even assuming 50/50 win rates the game favors Protoss because they get to control the pace of the game to a pretty significant extent.
But I really don't think you played enough Terran if you think there aren't significant variations in style / gameplay, just watch a Taeja TvP and compare it to a Polt or Maru TvP. All three of these players have compeltely different valid approaches to the matchup that are just as different as MC, HerO and Rain's playstyles. The problem is that the variety comes more from decisions regarding army movement and end game strategy (i.e. how they plan to win) than composition or build order, because there isn't a lot of room to play with Terran compositions or build orders outside of taking big risks / using surprise gimmicks.
The Widow Mine buff has helped out quite a bit, but it still hasn't really given Terran room to make decisions, it's just given them another unit they can use as a reaction to a zealot heavy composition.
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On April 23 2014 06:22 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. It's funny that this is the conclusion you've come to after playing Terran when this is what I and many other Terran's have been arguing from the start. Protoss has too many options, Terran too few, even assuming 50/50 win rates the game favors Protoss because they get to control the pace of the game to a pretty significant extent. But I really don't think you played enough Terran if you think there aren't significant variations in style / gameplay, just watch a Taeja TvP and compare it to a Polt or Maru TvP. All three of these players have compeltely different valid approaches to the matchup that are just as different as MC, HerO and Rain's playstyles. The problem is that the variety comes more from decisions regarding army movement and end game strategy (i.e. how they plan to win) than composition or build order, because there isn't a lot of room to play with Terran compositions or build orders outside of taking big risks / using surprise gimmicks. The Widow Mine buff has helped out quite a bit, but it still hasn't really given Terran room to make decisions, it's just given them another unit they can use as a reaction to a zealot heavy composition.
Don't get me wrong their styles are very different. Taeja relies on his impeccable scans / ghost control to win whereas Polt/Maru play almost completely ghostless with non-stop Marauder aggression and drops everywhere.
It's just less varied than the Protoss side. Actually Terran bio with stim is so good I don't think there is incentive to really go for anything else. Why waste time trying to mech? I think that's how the Korean pros see it.
Like Day9 said, max vs. max I actually think the Terran army is better **PROVIDED YOU HAVE VERY GOOD CONTROL**
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On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer?
Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard?
Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss?
Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position?
Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in.
Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly.
This is getting ridiculous.
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On April 23 2014 06:52 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 06:22 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. It's funny that this is the conclusion you've come to after playing Terran when this is what I and many other Terran's have been arguing from the start. Protoss has too many options, Terran too few, even assuming 50/50 win rates the game favors Protoss because they get to control the pace of the game to a pretty significant extent. But I really don't think you played enough Terran if you think there aren't significant variations in style / gameplay, just watch a Taeja TvP and compare it to a Polt or Maru TvP. All three of these players have compeltely different valid approaches to the matchup that are just as different as MC, HerO and Rain's playstyles. The problem is that the variety comes more from decisions regarding army movement and end game strategy (i.e. how they plan to win) than composition or build order, because there isn't a lot of room to play with Terran compositions or build orders outside of taking big risks / using surprise gimmicks. The Widow Mine buff has helped out quite a bit, but it still hasn't really given Terran room to make decisions, it's just given them another unit they can use as a reaction to a zealot heavy composition. Don't get me wrong their styles are very different. Taeja relies on his impeccable scans / ghost control to win whereas Polt/Maru play almost completely ghostless with non-stop Marauder aggression and drops everywhere. It's just less varied than the Protoss side. Actually Terran bio with stim is so good I don't think there is incentive to really go for anything else. Why waste time trying to mech? I think that's how the Korean pros see it. Like Day9 said, max vs. max I actually think the Terran army is better **PROVIDED YOU HAVE VERY GOOD CONTROL**
Not in HOTS IMO. This was true before Revelation and Tempest.
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On April 23 2014 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer? Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard? Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss? Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in. Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly. This is getting ridiculous.
Zealot Drops are super potent without control and are easier to use because you don't have to position and think with them, you just do them when you feell ike you can get away with it. A Terran drop takes about a minute from when it is send, Zealots hit as fast as 7 seconds later.
I think that is what he means.
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On April 23 2014 07:02 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 06:52 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 06:22 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. It's funny that this is the conclusion you've come to after playing Terran when this is what I and many other Terran's have been arguing from the start. Protoss has too many options, Terran too few, even assuming 50/50 win rates the game favors Protoss because they get to control the pace of the game to a pretty significant extent. But I really don't think you played enough Terran if you think there aren't significant variations in style / gameplay, just watch a Taeja TvP and compare it to a Polt or Maru TvP. All three of these players have compeltely different valid approaches to the matchup that are just as different as MC, HerO and Rain's playstyles. The problem is that the variety comes more from decisions regarding army movement and end game strategy (i.e. how they plan to win) than composition or build order, because there isn't a lot of room to play with Terran compositions or build orders outside of taking big risks / using surprise gimmicks. The Widow Mine buff has helped out quite a bit, but it still hasn't really given Terran room to make decisions, it's just given them another unit they can use as a reaction to a zealot heavy composition. Don't get me wrong their styles are very different. Taeja relies on his impeccable scans / ghost control to win whereas Polt/Maru play almost completely ghostless with non-stop Marauder aggression and drops everywhere. It's just less varied than the Protoss side. Actually Terran bio with stim is so good I don't think there is incentive to really go for anything else. Why waste time trying to mech? I think that's how the Korean pros see it. Like Day9 said, max vs. max I actually think the Terran army is better **PROVIDED YOU HAVE VERY GOOD CONTROL** Not in HOTS IMO. This was true before Revelation and Tempest.
Revelation does not change army strength and Tempest isn't good in the actual fight outside of "forcing" a confrontation. How does this reverse Day9's statement?
Terran scans before a fight, Toss uses Revelation before a fight--how does army strength change?
Or are you more talking about how its too hard to catch protoss off guard? Its too hard to force protoss to fight?
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On April 23 2014 07:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer? Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard? Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss? Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in. Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly. This is getting ridiculous. Zealot Drops are super potent without control and are easier to use because you don't have to position and think with them, you just do them when you feell ike you can get away with it. A Terran drop takes about a minute from when it is send, Zealots hit as fast as 7 seconds later. I think that is what he means.
I think you mean 7 seconds from when they are purchased not sent. Medivacs are not exactly known as slow units nor are prisms known for being effective when you have 8-10 of them. Medivacs being more plentiful means terran hits more areas, more often, and most of the time they just leave the marines standing behind minerals.
Not that terran drops are easy--but I just don't see the argument of one minimap click being better than another minimap click.
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On April 23 2014 07:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:02 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 23 2014 06:52 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 06:22 Pursuit_ wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too goddamn boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid shit like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. It's funny that this is the conclusion you've come to after playing Terran when this is what I and many other Terran's have been arguing from the start. Protoss has too many options, Terran too few, even assuming 50/50 win rates the game favors Protoss because they get to control the pace of the game to a pretty significant extent. But I really don't think you played enough Terran if you think there aren't significant variations in style / gameplay, just watch a Taeja TvP and compare it to a Polt or Maru TvP. All three of these players have compeltely different valid approaches to the matchup that are just as different as MC, HerO and Rain's playstyles. The problem is that the variety comes more from decisions regarding army movement and end game strategy (i.e. how they plan to win) than composition or build order, because there isn't a lot of room to play with Terran compositions or build orders outside of taking big risks / using surprise gimmicks. The Widow Mine buff has helped out quite a bit, but it still hasn't really given Terran room to make decisions, it's just given them another unit they can use as a reaction to a zealot heavy composition. Don't get me wrong their styles are very different. Taeja relies on his impeccable scans / ghost control to win whereas Polt/Maru play almost completely ghostless with non-stop Marauder aggression and drops everywhere. It's just less varied than the Protoss side. Actually Terran bio with stim is so good I don't think there is incentive to really go for anything else. Why waste time trying to mech? I think that's how the Korean pros see it. Like Day9 said, max vs. max I actually think the Terran army is better **PROVIDED YOU HAVE VERY GOOD CONTROL** Not in HOTS IMO. This was true before Revelation and Tempest. Revelation does not change army strength and Tempest isn't good in the actual fight outside of "forcing" a confrontation. How does this reverse Day9's statement? Terran scans before a fight, Toss uses Revelation before a fight--how does army strength change? Or are you more talking about how its too hard to catch protoss off guard? Its too hard to force protoss to fight?
What I mean;
WOL Planetary Viking Ghost had the range advantage over Protoss. Terran would -ALWAYS- determine when and where the fight would happen. Scan Cloak Viking would make sure Terran wins the fight.
HOTS; not so much.
Revelation makes it so the Protoss is never caught offguard. He can position well, and unlike WOL, where Terran had the easy pickings on Protoss, 5 Tempest make it so Protoss one hits Vikings/Ghost anytime they posture aggressively.
That makes it so Protoss gets to pick the favorable engagement (think templar flanks, ghost, enough well spread observers.
Combined with the better maps, I'd say TvP lategame is now for Protoss, but it is still all about REALLY sexy control.
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On April 23 2014 07:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 23 2014 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer? Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard? Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss? Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in. Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly. This is getting ridiculous. Zealot Drops are super potent without control and are easier to use because you don't have to position and think with them, you just do them when you feell ike you can get away with it. A Terran drop takes about a minute from when it is send, Zealots hit as fast as 7 seconds later. I think that is what he means. I think you mean 7 seconds from when they are purchased not sent. Medivacs are not exactly known as slow units nor are prisms known for being effective when you have 8-10 of them. Medivacs being more plentiful means terran hits more areas, more often, and most of the time they just leave the marines standing behind minerals. Not that terran drops are easy--but I just don't see the argument of one minimap click being better than another minimap click.
For Protoss a Terran drop (after the midgame Terran rampage timing) is WAY easier to clean up than a Zealot warp in for Terran (I also talk about pylons at thirds etc, btw). Storm/Feedback/Warpin/Overcharge/Blink Stalkers make quick work of smaller drops, and observers help predicting them well.
A zealot warp in of 8-10 zealots will ramsack any base, even planetaries that don't have enough SCVs near them. MMM in equal supply loses if uncontrolled, so Terran has to micro the defense, which is barely the case for Protoss.
the biggest advantage lies in attention, where Terran drops require more/longer attention and deal their initial damage slower but have higher potential, and Terran drop defense is harder because it requires cutting units from the main army, microing the defense and making sure to be on your guard verse an aggressive Protoss move-out.
I think that is what they are wording in a poor way...  !
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Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position?
Eh, no you don't press hold position on Marines quite often (and then look away), because then your your opponent can just move his drone away. Yes, when there are no banelings, you can hold postioin behind mineral lines and be very cost effective vs speedlings, but at standard medivac timing, the zerg has banelings and you already need to micro against it.
The simple truth is that there is so much more stuff you can do with Marines. Like the opponents comes in with his blings. Then you focus fire as many banelings as possible as you can before they come close enough and you need to load them in.
Or when he comes in with Mutas, you put the Marines into the dropship, then speed boost away to a new "ground-level" while clicking "d" on the dropship so your marines drops out while the dropships is flying away (so it doens't get killed by mutas). Meanwhile you take your dropped marines and fucs fire the Mutalisks that is trying to kill off your dropships.
Basically, each time you do a Marine drop, it feels like the potential basically is unlimited. The same thing goes for early game Hellion/Reaper harass, or just army battles in general. The same concept doens't really apply for protoss (not too the same extent at least), which IMO makes it a less fun race.
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On April 23 2014 07:20 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 07:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 23 2014 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 02:08 SC2Toastie wrote:
I could relate in the past when I would just not watch at all except for Terran games that ended in a win (IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA, that period of time, you'll know what I mean :D), and ended up watching near nothing. I understand people want to watch their race, but really, I advise everybody to just play random for a while. I've done it throughout all of HOTS and it is amazing. I can watch SC2 whenever I feel like it, any strategy I see I can steal, I can get creative if I feel like it.
The only bad part is the morons on ladder, but well, who gives a !@#$%^&* about them. I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer? Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard? Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss? Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in. Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly. This is getting ridiculous. Zealot Drops are super potent without control and are easier to use because you don't have to position and think with them, you just do them when you feell ike you can get away with it. A Terran drop takes about a minute from when it is send, Zealots hit as fast as 7 seconds later. I think that is what he means. I think you mean 7 seconds from when they are purchased not sent. Medivacs are not exactly known as slow units nor are prisms known for being effective when you have 8-10 of them. Medivacs being more plentiful means terran hits more areas, more often, and most of the time they just leave the marines standing behind minerals. Not that terran drops are easy--but I just don't see the argument of one minimap click being better than another minimap click. For Protoss a Terran drop (after the midgame Terran rampage timing) is WAY easier to clean up than a Zealot warp in for Terran (I also talk about pylons at thirds etc, btw). Storm/Feedback/Warpin/Overcharge/Blink Stalkers make quick work of smaller drops, and observers help predicting them well. A zealot warp in of 8-10 zealots will ramsack any base, even planetaries that don't have enough SCVs near them. MMM in equal supply loses if uncontrolled, so Terran has to micro the defense, which is barely the case for Protoss. the biggest advantage lies in attention, where Terran drops require more/longer attention and deal their initial damage slower but have higher potential, and Terran drop defense is harder because it requires cutting units from the main army, microing the defense and making sure to be on your guard verse an aggressive Protoss move-out. I think that is what they are wording in a poor way... !
I just disagree with the "deal with the drops" idea but that's mostly because of the nature of the two attacks.
Terran drops usually focus on hitting 2+ spots at once until protoss spreads himself too evenly in which case it shifts to doom drop tactics.
Protoss is more blunt force surgical strikes hitting that *one* spot thats undefended. They usually also require a lot of map presence to properly place all those pylons in the right areas. As such they usually make 8-10 zealots to hit one area as opposed to 16-24 mariens hitting 3 areas.
I don't think that makes one harder or easier than the other though. I know I hate zealot drops more than marine drops, as a terran player, but thats also because I'm more practiced vs marine drops and not as much vs zealot harass.
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On April 23 2014 07:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:20 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 23 2014 07:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 07:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 23 2014 06:58 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:37 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 05:34 Thieving Magpie wrote:On April 23 2014 05:23 Hider wrote:On April 23 2014 05:10 DinoMight wrote:On April 23 2014 03:19 Hider wrote:
[quote]
I tried playing protoss, but the race is just too !@#$%^&* boring for to me. I prefer playstyles where mechanics matter more. I doubt you're good enough to hit the skill ceiling for any race. Have you watched Liquid HerO play? The thing I like about Protoss is there are many ways to play it that are all valid. You can play aggressive timing attacks like MC, defensive macro games like Rain, and cute harass oriented builds like HerO. You can also do insane stupid !@#$%^&* like $O$. I actually hated playing Terran. When I hit buttons correctly, I won. When I didn't, I lost. The only "decision" I ever made was whether to build mines, tanks, or vikings with my MMM. Besides it being much harder to postion your self as protoss to play offensively, the aggressive protoss units faces another problem: Its not paritcularly fun to execute the style; 1) Oracle --> terrilbe control you can only amove or go back with it. It gets hardcountered by critical mass and counters below critical mass too well. Its a multitaskbased unit indeed, but not fun at all too control 2) Zealot warp ins - Quite unfun compared to marine drops IMO since there is very little you can do with them. 3) Besides that you simply just sit with your main army for the majority of the game. Like with terran you can move out aggressive with your medivacs in the midgame while loading up drops around the map. Try that with toss against zergs (unless you allin) and you get raped. Basically as terran your so busy controling your army which means you almost never have time to look in your own base, which IMO makes it so fun to play. 4) Blink Stalkers (?) not the biggest fan of this unit as it doesn't really interact pretty well with anything. Kinda hardcounters unstimmed bio units and pretty much sucks against stimmed bio units unless you have critical mass. 5) You risk playing against Swarm Hosts. Ofc that doens't mean you can't do aggressive plays like Hero does. And you know what? You can also do funky harass stuff with mech, but there is a reason why aggressive harassbased mech isn't deliveiering consistent results and there is also a reason for why aggressive (non-allinihs) harassbased protoss isn't delievering consistent results. Speaking as a Terran/Zerg player => these are all 100% wrong So... Zealot warp ins take micro and mechanical skill to execute? Is that your final answer? Are you saying the game automates it for you and you can let go of the mouse and keyboard? Or are you saying hotkey+minimap click of terran takes more skill than hotkey+minimap click of protoss? Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Sure, if there are units guarding then marines have to kite unless you just pick up the marines and fly away with the medivac while the zealots are too far in the base to risk the prism from flying in. Saying zealot runbys require more micro than marine drops just because you *might* have to kite with marines is just silly. This is getting ridiculous. Zealot Drops are super potent without control and are easier to use because you don't have to position and think with them, you just do them when you feell ike you can get away with it. A Terran drop takes about a minute from when it is send, Zealots hit as fast as 7 seconds later. I think that is what he means. I think you mean 7 seconds from when they are purchased not sent. Medivacs are not exactly known as slow units nor are prisms known for being effective when you have 8-10 of them. Medivacs being more plentiful means terran hits more areas, more often, and most of the time they just leave the marines standing behind minerals. Not that terran drops are easy--but I just don't see the argument of one minimap click being better than another minimap click. For Protoss a Terran drop (after the midgame Terran rampage timing) is WAY easier to clean up than a Zealot warp in for Terran (I also talk about pylons at thirds etc, btw). Storm/Feedback/Warpin/Overcharge/Blink Stalkers make quick work of smaller drops, and observers help predicting them well. A zealot warp in of 8-10 zealots will ramsack any base, even planetaries that don't have enough SCVs near them. MMM in equal supply loses if uncontrolled, so Terran has to micro the defense, which is barely the case for Protoss. the biggest advantage lies in attention, where Terran drops require more/longer attention and deal their initial damage slower but have higher potential, and Terran drop defense is harder because it requires cutting units from the main army, microing the defense and making sure to be on your guard verse an aggressive Protoss move-out. I think that is what they are wording in a poor way... ! I just disagree with the "deal with the drops" idea but that's mostly because of the nature of the two attacks. Terran drops usually focus on hitting 2+ spots at once until protoss spreads himself too evenly in which case it shifts to doom drop tactics. Protoss is more blunt force surgical strikes hitting that *one* spot thats undefended. They usually also require a lot of map presence to properly place all those pylons in the right areas. As such they usually make 8-10 zealots to hit one area as opposed to 16-24 mariens hitting 3 areas. I don't think that makes one harder or easier than the other though. I know I hate zealot drops more than marine drops, as a terran player, but thats also because I'm more practiced vs marine drops and not as much vs zealot harass.
Spread out marine drops don't happen at the same time zealot strikes happen, when there's WAY more to do.
You keep talking about Zealot drops, too. The power of the attacks is the warp in pylon, no commitment into immediate high damage attack. Marine drops are airborne for a long time, predicatble, and at later stages of the game, really easy to shut down.
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On April 23 2014 07:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Eh, no you don't press hold position on Marines quite often (and then look away), because then your your opponent can just move his drone away. Yes, when there are no banelings, you can hold postioin behind mineral lines and be very cost effective vs speedlings, but at standard medivac timing, the zerg has banelings and you already need to micro against that unit away. The simple truth is that there is so much more stuff you can do with Marines. Like the opponents comes in with his blings. Then you focus fire as many banelings as possible as you can before they come close enough and you need to load them in. Or when he comes in with Mutas, you put the Marines into the dropship, then speed boost away to a new "ground-level" while clicking "d" on the dropship so your marines drops out while the dropships is flying away (so it doens't get killed by mutas). Meanwhile you take your dropped marines and fucs fire the Mutalisks that is trying to kill off your dropships. Basically, each time you do a Marine drop, it feels like the potential basicailly is unlimited. The same thing goes for early game Hellion/Reaper harass, or just army battles in general. The same concept doens't really apply for protoss (not too the same extent at least), which IMO makes it a less fun race.
This. At its least skill intensive, a Marine drop will end with marines standing still, attacking one structure or a couple of workers, then lifting back up and hightailing out of there. And those drops do happen. But a hundred different scenarios could arise forcing the Terran to pay total attention to the drop and micro his heart out, whether it's looking for the best positioning against a ling surround, target firing a stream of incoming banelings, following Drones around the base, picking the marines back up because of incoming Mutas and then dropping them one by one to try to save the Medivac/kill some Mutas, controlling two drops at the exact same time... each situation calls for a completely different response which takes advantage of very different mechanical skills. And the decision how much attention to devote to this particular drop based on how the Zerg is responding is a crucial one.
At its least skill intensive, a Zealot warp in is... the same as at its most skill intensive. You warp in a bunch of Zealots and 1a them into the Terran mineral line. You might right click on a bunch of workers. Not exactly the same level of involvement, is it? But the damage is often comparable. Not only that, the risk is much lower for the Protoss - he can only lose the Warp Prism on the way there, not the Zealots themselves unlike the Medivac which has to travel with its cargo, and he can have two drops' worth of units come from a single WP meaning he again loses one Prism instead of two. And while the drop is in progress, the Medivac is always in danger of getting sniped, unlike the WP which is free to go the moment the units are warped in.
I watch a Terran drop and I think, 'the Terran player is in a position to impress me, what can he do here that will make this game memorable?' I watch a Protoss drop and I think 'OK. That happened.' The difference is if the Terran player isn't making the game memorable, that actually means he's losing.
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On April 23 2014 07:54 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:22 Hider wrote:Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Eh, no you don't press hold position on Marines quite often (and then look away), because then your your opponent can just move his drone away. Yes, when there are no banelings, you can hold postioin behind mineral lines and be very cost effective vs speedlings, but at standard medivac timing, the zerg has banelings and you already need to micro against that unit away. The simple truth is that there is so much more stuff you can do with Marines. Like the opponents comes in with his blings. Then you focus fire as many banelings as possible as you can before they come close enough and you need to load them in. Or when he comes in with Mutas, you put the Marines into the dropship, then speed boost away to a new "ground-level" while clicking "d" on the dropship so your marines drops out while the dropships is flying away (so it doens't get killed by mutas). Meanwhile you take your dropped marines and fucs fire the Mutalisks that is trying to kill off your dropships. Basically, each time you do a Marine drop, it feels like the potential basicailly is unlimited. The same thing goes for early game Hellion/Reaper harass, or just army battles in general. The same concept doens't really apply for protoss (not too the same extent at least), which IMO makes it a less fun race. This. At its least skill intensive, a Marine drop will end with marines standing still, attacking one structure or a couple of workers, then lifting back up and hightailing out of there. And those drops do happen. But a hundred different scenarios could arise forcing the Terran to pay total attention to the drop and micro his heart out, whether it's looking for the best positioning against a ling surround, target firing a stream of incoming banelings, following Drones around the base, picking the marines back up because of incoming Mutas and then dropping them one by one to try to save the Medivac/kill some Mutas, controlling two drops at the exact same time... each situation calls for a completely different response which takes advantage of very different mechanical skills. And the decision how much attention to devote to this particular drop based on how the Zerg is responding is a crucial one. At its least skill intensive, a Zealot warp in is... the same as at its most skill intensive. You warp in a bunch of Zealots and 1a them into the Terran mineral line. You might right click on a bunch of workers. Not exactly the same level of involvement, is it? But the damage is often comparable. Not only that, the risk is much lower for the Protoss - he can only lose the Warp Prism on the way there, not the Zealots themselves unlike the Medivac which has to travel with its cargo, and he can have two drops' worth of units come from a single WP meaning he again loses one Prism instead of two. And while the drop is in progress, the Medivac is always in danger of getting sniped, unlike the WP which is free to go the moment the units are warped in. I watch a Terran drop and I think, 'the Terran player is in a position to impress me, what can he do here that will make this game memorable?' I watch a Protoss drop and I think 'OK. That happened.' The difference is if the Terran player isn't making the game memorable, that actually means he's losing.
But that's the thing when I say potaytoes potahtoes.
With a marine drop, a lot of the energy is used up in the final moments of the execution. Terran builds marines and medivacs as much as possible, the tech to get them is the tech they need to go after no matter the strategy.
Tech wise, protoss has to commit to harassment.
Without speed upgrade, scvs just walk away from zealots and you get 0-1 kills tops.
Without dual tech of twilight+robo then you don't get prism.
Without prism you have to make certain you have places to hide pylons which get sniped regularly.
You need a constant probe out in the field not dying to place pylons throughout the game
etc...
There is a LOT that goes on in zealot harass. The zealots arriving in the base is just the last part of it. But no one is ever impressed by how tightly a protoss player can cut corners surviving with little to no units out. Unless your name is Rain or Parting no one cares about your observer placements, your constant map awareness. All they point to is "look at that marine kite" and they never find it impressive to see a Stalker kiting marines/slowlings.
It just seems rather biased and dishonest for the most part.
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On April 23 2014 08:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 07:54 pure.Wasted wrote:On April 23 2014 07:22 Hider wrote:Are you saying marines standing in place in the back of a mineral line takes more clicks than positioning zealots and pressing hold position? Eh, no you don't press hold position on Marines quite often (and then look away), because then your your opponent can just move his drone away. Yes, when there are no banelings, you can hold postioin behind mineral lines and be very cost effective vs speedlings, but at standard medivac timing, the zerg has banelings and you already need to micro against that unit away. The simple truth is that there is so much more stuff you can do with Marines. Like the opponents comes in with his blings. Then you focus fire as many banelings as possible as you can before they come close enough and you need to load them in. Or when he comes in with Mutas, you put the Marines into the dropship, then speed boost away to a new "ground-level" while clicking "d" on the dropship so your marines drops out while the dropships is flying away (so it doens't get killed by mutas). Meanwhile you take your dropped marines and fucs fire the Mutalisks that is trying to kill off your dropships. Basically, each time you do a Marine drop, it feels like the potential basicailly is unlimited. The same thing goes for early game Hellion/Reaper harass, or just army battles in general. The same concept doens't really apply for protoss (not too the same extent at least), which IMO makes it a less fun race. This. At its least skill intensive, a Marine drop will end with marines standing still, attacking one structure or a couple of workers, then lifting back up and hightailing out of there. And those drops do happen. But a hundred different scenarios could arise forcing the Terran to pay total attention to the drop and micro his heart out, whether it's looking for the best positioning against a ling surround, target firing a stream of incoming banelings, following Drones around the base, picking the marines back up because of incoming Mutas and then dropping them one by one to try to save the Medivac/kill some Mutas, controlling two drops at the exact same time... each situation calls for a completely different response which takes advantage of very different mechanical skills. And the decision how much attention to devote to this particular drop based on how the Zerg is responding is a crucial one. At its least skill intensive, a Zealot warp in is... the same as at its most skill intensive. You warp in a bunch of Zealots and 1a them into the Terran mineral line. You might right click on a bunch of workers. Not exactly the same level of involvement, is it? But the damage is often comparable. Not only that, the risk is much lower for the Protoss - he can only lose the Warp Prism on the way there, not the Zealots themselves unlike the Medivac which has to travel with its cargo, and he can have two drops' worth of units come from a single WP meaning he again loses one Prism instead of two. And while the drop is in progress, the Medivac is always in danger of getting sniped, unlike the WP which is free to go the moment the units are warped in. I watch a Terran drop and I think, 'the Terran player is in a position to impress me, what can he do here that will make this game memorable?' I watch a Protoss drop and I think 'OK. That happened.' The difference is if the Terran player isn't making the game memorable, that actually means he's losing. But that's the thing when I say potaytoes potahtoes. With a marine drop, a lot of the energy is used up in the final moments of the execution. Terran builds marines and medivacs as much as possible, the tech to get them is the tech they need to go after no matter the strategy. Tech wise, protoss has to commit to harassment. Without speed upgrade, scvs just walk away from zealots and you get 0-1 kills tops. Without dual tech of twilight+robo then you don't get prism. Without prism you have to make certain you have places to hide pylons which get sniped regularly. You need a constant probe out in the field not dying to place pylons throughout the game etc... There is a LOT that goes on in zealot harass. The zealots arriving in the base is just the last part of it.
Protoss has to commit to harassment? Should I be complaining that Terrans have to commit to Hellion harassment in TvZ? Because getting out 6 Hellions and 2 Reapers during the early game is a lot more of a commitment than researching Charge in the midgame. Zealot-heavy compositions are still in vogue even with the WM buff.
As for the other stuff, you're way overcomplicating it. I could also say that a Terran is committing heavily to drops unless he scans it first (270 minerals) or scouts it with Reapers/Hellions to make sure it's safe for a Medivac to fly in, because there's a good chance the Medivac will die, and unlike Protoss Terran actually need their dropships for engaging, which means he won't be able to push out and will have to play more passively in the future. But I didn't say any of this, because it's neither here nor there for determining whether doing econ damage with Terran takes more mechanical skill than doing econ damage with Protoss.
But no one is ever impressed by how tightly a protoss player can cut corners surviving with little to no units out. Unless your name is Rain or Parting no one cares about your observer placements, your constant map awareness. All they point to is "look at that marine kite" and they never find it impressive to see a Stalker kiting marines/slowlings.
It just seems rather biased and dishonest for the most part.
Protoss get praise for Observers same way Zerg get praise for creep spread and Terrans get praise for scanning to snipe Observers/stopping creep spread. Unless you're Rain/Scarlett/Taeja doing it like a boss, there's a very good chance you don't deserve praise.
I feel that there is a slight anti-Protoss bias in viewers as a result of the fact that most casters focus on surface impressions of a game, and Terran is the most surface-impression friendly while Protoss's flair is more build-order oriented and casters, if they even understand the sophistication of these BOs themselves, certainly aren't able to convey them to the masses live.
The solution? Same solution as for everything else. Make Protoss take more mechanical and multitasking skill to pull off the same stunts (make them more surface-impression friendly) and give Terran the same level of BO versatility (aka sophistication). That way they'll be on the same playing field.
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Northern Ireland23783 Posts
You do raise a good point Wasted in that most people know a lot less about the game than they think and it really takes a talented analytical caster to point out some of the subtleties, especially with Protoss.
Things like Stalker kiting vs naked marines are cool to watch, but they are super limted in terms of timeframe and not as big a part of the game as in the days of WoL where you saw that kind of dynamic a lot more often.
Also agreed with you in the 'make Protoss more mechanical' to equalise things. Good players get more tools with which to show their flair, bad players will have a harder time vs the players of other races. Protoss has a lot of strategical options which is good, it'd just be cool if there was a bit more that they could do on the mechanical front.
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