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On December 24 2013 00:47 MTAC wrote:It's false, at least for TvZ. After Queen buff get really abused by Zerg players and maps gets bigger. You've seen MMM or Mech, but less and less marine-tank. Even MMMHellion was better than marine-tank. After some time you'd only seen MMM or mech, but never the biomech style everyone liked.
Just no. Marine/Tank was by far the most popular style. Mech was somewhat viable, probably more popular amongst foreigners and probably a tiny bit weaker than biomech (but imo not by far). MMM was rarely played by MKP (and maybe another Prime player), but in essence it was nonexistent. MMMHellion, I don't remember anyone trying this in 2012-13 as a macro style.
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MMM was rarely played by MKP (and maybe another Prime player)
Mkp, Maru, MvP, Bomber, Polt, Alive, MMA. I remember all theses guys using it in progames at the end of WoL.
Alive, Maru,Mkp used it nearly all the time, and when MvP didn't meched at that time it was mostly MMM. Huge maps, T3 just untouchable by tanks (and even more stronger when tanks were in the game). Pro terran had to hit fast and in multiple locations on maybe half the maps. So yes, MMM was as used as marine-tank at the end of Wol, on some maps it was the only style used.
The only thing that NEEDED tanks to play against was 2/2 maxibust Ling/Bling/Muta. Otherwise, progamers were going mech (IE 4 tanks into mass Thors) or MMM with sometimes 1 or 2 tanks.
Hell ! even Marine-tanks games were 'build marines until 12 then put a TL on your factory and put another factory'.
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On December 24 2013 01:02 MTAC wrote:Mkp, Maru, MvP, Bomber, Polt, Alive, MMA. I remember all theses guys using it in progames at the end of WoL. Alive, Maru,Mkp used it nearly all the time, and when MvP didn't meched at that time it was mostly MMM.
Pure bio was never standard in WoL TvZ, it was very rare. TaeJa played it a bit then completely stopped. Marines/Tanks was still standard, even if of course it didn't work that well. Mech was played like 1 game out of 10 in Code S TvZ and it wasn't at all "4 Tanks into mass Thors" ...
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In LATE Wol TvZ, Alive used it in all his GSL games. Mkp and maru used it nearly all the games. I've seen at least 3 Bo3 where MvP used mech then bioplay only. I'm talking about late wol TvZ, before that ye it was marine-tank, wasn't that effective but it was marine-tank.
In late wol TvZ we had broolords around the 15 minutes marks, so yeah, a few tanks, then thors and a few vikings, because your army was tank/hellion/banshee otherwise, not the best deal against BL rush. If the game goes longer the goal was to reach mass ravens anyway.
Hell, I can't even say how many progames I've seen with less than 5 tanks in late WoL mech tvz, you just can check MvP VoD's. Lucifron was the only guy I know who reached for the MASS tanks and add a few vikings in emergency.
Point is, It was as effective to go for bioplay than biomech play in every MU outside TvT. On some maps (who said whirlwind?) it was even more effective. Therefore, even biomech play at that time relied mostly around 'marine balance' I think every Terran or ex-terran would like a marine nerf if it lead to mech units buff.
More biomech, more mech, more diversity, more fun.
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On December 24 2013 01:23 MTAC wrote:
In LATE Wol TvZ, Alive used it in all his GSL games. Mkp and maru used it nearly all the games. I've seen at least 3 Bo3 where MvP used mech then bioplay only. I'm talking about late wol TvZ, before that ye it was marine-tank, wasn't that effective but it was marine-tank.
In late wol TvZ we had broolords around the 15 minutes marks, so yeah, a few tanks, then thors and a few vikings, because your army was tank/hellion/banshee otherwise, not the best deal against BL rush. If the game goes longer the goal was to reach mass ravens anyway.
Hell, I can't even say how many progames I've seen with less than 5 tanks in late WoL mech tvz, you just can check MvP VoD's. Lucifron was the only guy I know who reached for the MASS tanks and add a few vikings in emergency.
Point is, It was as effective to go for bioplay than biomech play in every MU outside TvT. On some maps (who said whirlwind?) it was even more effective. Therefore, even biomech play at that time relied mostly around 'marine balance' I think every Terran or ex-terran would like a marine nerf if it lead to mech units buff.
More biomech, more mech, more diversity, more fun.
Mvp's mech was precisely mass Tanks with the least amount of Thors possible...
On August 23 2012 16:20 Ver wrote:
The MVP difference is his focus on tanks throughout the game and his consistently well timed harass. The main thing I learned from watching him is that I overmake thors when I go mech, even against broods. MVP has enough tanks to make sure the infestors can't just wreck him mid-battle. He also has great judgment when he can hit a pre-brood timing and when he should turtle and tech to raven/viking.
On September 08 2012 03:17 Ver wrote:
-Thors are really bad against everything but mutas. MVP's mech difference is being tank heavy, even against broods.
On September 16 2012 12:52 Ver wrote:
MVP mech is not hellion thor viking. MVP mech is mass tanks. If he goes only 3 base hive he's not going to have the resources to stop your pre-broodlord attack. Your goal is to force him to trade as much as possible before he gets broods, thus limiting the amount of infestor/brood he can actually have. You should always have the money to keep expanding with mech and if he is not being really aggressive with roach/muta you should be taking a 4th quickly. If he is going ling/infestor and really rushing hive, you actually should not be hellion harassing, but instead massing them up as once you get a critical mass of hellions his lings are worse than useless.
Of course you had no time to make 8+ Tanks before broods, and yes their production was delayed until midgame, but it doesn't change anything to the fact Tanks were the core unit in WoL TvZ. Pure bio (Marines/Marauders/Medivacs) was gimmicky and bad.
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On December 24 2013 01:02 MTAC wrote:Mkp, Maru, MvP, Bomber, Polt, Alive, MMA. I remember all theses guys using it in progames at the end of WoL. Alive, Maru,Mkp used it nearly all the time, and when MvP didn't meched at that time it was mostly MMM. Huge maps, T3 just untouchable by tanks (and even more stronger when tanks were in the game). Pro terran had to hit fast and in multiple locations on maybe half the maps. So yes, MMM was as used as marine-tank at the end of Wol, on some maps it was the only style used. The only thing that NEEDED tanks to play against was 2/2 maxibust Ling/Bling/Muta. Otherwise, progamers were going mech (IE 4 tanks into mass Thors) or MMM with sometimes 1 or 2 tanks. Hell ! even Marine-tanks games were 'build marines until 12 then put a TL on your factory and put another factory'.
MvP certainly was not using MMM at the end of WOL..his wrists were too injured to hold up to the taxing micro it required. In fact, MvP went the complete opposite way and invented the mech style that became popular at the end.. And Marine/Tank was still by far the most popular style. MMM was almost non-existent (outside of mkp) as it got completely pwned by infestor/ling/bling. Idk what games you were watching, because most of your information could not be farther from the truth.
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On December 23 2013 23:36 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 23:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
In what way do you think Terran is flawed incidentally? Quite interested to hear your thoughts. To put it short the over-reliance on marine that makes every game look the same, narrows terran players options into hyper-aggressive play, lack of transitions and endgame, the huge chasm between the mechanically talented players and the rest which leads into terran being balanced around Taeja while the race is pretty much dead in lower leagues. I think the terran problems are probably easier to fix than the protoss ones (nerf the marine, buff everything else, introduce mech as a less mechanically demanding option) because the protoss problems come from really fundamental mechanics like warp gate. Still, in their current state protoss feels like a much more complete race with actual strategy and variety, even if the stuff they can pull off is considered "dirty"
I sincerely disagree with terran being overly reliant on the marine in all match ups, and that marines always lead into hyper-aggressive styles.. By mid game TvP for example, you really want to be marauder heavy (5 tech labs and two reactors) or aoe is going to ruin your day. In TvT, not only is mech equally as viable as marine/tank, tanks are also more important that the marines because they give you map control and and the real damage output behind youre army. Also, by their nature, siege tanks do not really synergize with hyper-aggressive play. I'll give it to you though that youre definition of the marine is a perfect match for its current role in TvZ (I've even seen bomber go pure medivac marine lately since the WM nerf went through). Even so though, marine play generally leads to high level Terran players controlling multiple army groups around the map simultaneously, which imo does differentiate the best Terrans from lower level ones, as the better players can do it much more efficiently.
And I absolutely do not consider myself a bw expert by any means, but were't marines consider just as/even more powerful in bw? The SK Terran style for instance was basically marine/medic til mid-late game correct? So its not like the marine being a strong unit is new (though admitedly I could be completely off base with that comparison).
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Northern Ireland26028 Posts
Stat wise bio was pretty comparable in BW, but there are big differences in pathing and clumping, limited unit selection etc
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On December 24 2013 09:31 Survivor61316 wrote:
And I absolutely do not consider myself a bw expert by any means, but were't marines consider just as/even more powerful in bw? The SK Terran style for instance was basically marine/medic til mid-late game correct? So its not like the marine being a strong unit is new (though admitedly I could be completely off base with that comparison).
SK Terran is marine/medic/vessel and it's only sometimes used in one matchup. And medics can't fly your entire army around the map.
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On December 24 2013 09:57 Wombat_NI wrote:
Stat wise bio was pretty comparable in BW, but there are big differences in pathing and clumping, limited unit selection etc
Marauders!
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On December 24 2013 10:34 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 09:31 Survivor61316 wrote:
And I absolutely do not consider myself a bw expert by any means, but were't marines consider just as/even more powerful in bw? The SK Terran style for instance was basically marine/medic til mid-late game correct? So its not like the marine being a strong unit is new (though admitedly I could be completely off base with that comparison). SK Terran is marine/medic/vessel and it's only sometimes used in one matchup. And medics can't fly your entire army around the map.
Well I was only talking about one MU (TvP was mech if I'm not mistaken, and therefore not applicable). I forgot about science vessels though. Either way, the points throughout the rest of my post hold true.
edit: I'm pretty sure that the SK Terran build was the go to build for the MU though at the end of bw, not one that was only used sometimes.
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On December 24 2013 12:58 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 10:34 Mindcrime wrote:On December 24 2013 09:31 Survivor61316 wrote:
And I absolutely do not consider myself a bw expert by any means, but were't marines consider just as/even more powerful in bw? The SK Terran style for instance was basically marine/medic til mid-late game correct? So its not like the marine being a strong unit is new (though admitedly I could be completely off base with that comparison). SK Terran is marine/medic/vessel and it's only sometimes used in one matchup. And medics can't fly your entire army around the map. Well I was only talking about one MU (TvP was mech if I'm not mistaken, and therefore not applicable). I forgot about science vessels though. Either way, the points throughout the rest of my post hold true. edit: I'm pretty sure that the SK Terran build was the go to build for the MU though at the end of bw, not one that was only used sometimes.
Nope, tanks remained pretty popular.
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You would normally only get 3 tanks in bw for the break out and pre hive timing, then transition to 7 rax 2 star in bw for a SK terran build.
The other popular transition in late BW was to go 3 tank vessel push and then add more factory and vultures with mines & speed to maintain map control and transition to mech.
In WoL you could basically go for a lot of Bio only play if you could be sure that your opponent went the Infestor >12 Min hive style. But it would die hard to lair tech zerg without the splash of tanks to deal with banelings. Adding in tanks was therefore the more stable playstyle.
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On December 25 2013 02:07 4Servy wrote:
You would normally only get 3 tanks in bw for the break out and pre hive timing, then transition to 7 rax 2 star in bw for a SK terran build.
The other popular transition in late BW was to go 3 tank vessel push and then add more factory and vultures with mines & speed to maintain map control and transition to mech.
In WoL you could basically go for a lot of Bio only play if you could be sure that your opponent went the Infestor >12 Min hive style. But it would die hard to lair tech zerg without the splash of tanks to deal with banelings. Adding in tanks was therefore the more stable playstyle.
who did that?
Without tanks you were already helpless against Infestors, no need for broodlords.
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I don't think BW comparisons are justified.. banelings and infestors have changed the MU too much.
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On December 25 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think BW comparisons are justified.. banelings and infestors have changed the MU too much. I think the clear problem with the TvZ matchup is the design of warpgate.
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On December 25 2013 04:48 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2013 04:04 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think BW comparisons are justified.. banelings and infestors have changed the MU too much. I think the clear problem with the TvZ matchup is the design of warpgate.
rofl
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Does anyone know David Kim's "Random" GM Account?
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all 3rd level defense upgrades a lot higher to avoid 2sec 200 vs 200 fights.
edit: I feel P can play without FF if Roaches are removed. Not sure in PvT
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The fundamental problem of TvP still lies in late-game
Many people may still remember the infamous quote from DK that different race should have imbalanced strength in different stages of the game, and in TvP Terran has to do damage before late-game otherwise Protoss will have a big advantage in the late-game. Same thing can be said to PvZ in WoL's later period.
This statement was rebuked heavily by the community back then and DK stated at one point that they have abandoned such philosophy of "different strengths in different stages of the game".
However, regardless of their change of approach, TvP still has the same problem that Terran has to do damage before the late-game in order to have a equal playing field if the game goes into the late-game.
TvP late-game almost doesn't change a bit between WOL and HOTS. The only difference may be just adding a few tempests in the late-game. Terran still has the same problem in the late-game.
The nerfs to hellbat and widow mines and the oracle buff or the MSC disable Terran's ability to do damage before the late-game.
If late-game is equal in TvP and Terran doesn't have to do damage early on to win late-game, the oracle buff and MSC won't have such a huge influence on the balance of the game. This is also why the oracle buff and MSC don't alter ZvP dramatically since Zerg doesn't need to do damage early-on and late-game ZvP is relatively equal.
People call for Protoss redesign constantly but why not Terran redesign? Terran is not the "best-designed race" anymore. It may even be the worst design race now if you look at how one dimension Terran composition in TvP and TvZ can be----MMMVG in TvP since 2010 and Bio-mine in TvZ since HOTS (even DK's current patch wants people to use bio tank mine). There is no transition in unit composition. There is few diversities and options. Every Protoss knows Terran is going MMMVG almost every game.
It's time to make Terran's higher tier units meaningful in their respective stage of the game.
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EPT
