On December 23 2013 10:51 aZealot wrote: We've had this discussion before, Wombat. And I firmly disagree.
But, not to worry; as the song goes, she'll be coming round the mountain soon enough.
Im curious. Why do you disagree?
Protoss is perhaps the most volatile race, with the reputation of having the most disliked matchup amongst the majority of pros/noobs/w/e of all time whether its PvP (war of lasers), TvP (deathballs/allins) and PvZ (in the past), it also has the most disliked units due to being so one dimensional e.g. colossus and some of the core protoss traits in SC2 goes against all RTS design e.g warp gate mechanic where the biggest flaws stem from being it being a mechanic with no drawback vs traditional production buildings.
The final icying on the cake for the protoss race is its limited micro potential on virtually all the units which really makes it hard for players to really distinguish themselves.
I also have to put it out there that Protoss is difficult not in terms of micro control (id say Zerg and Terran have alot more work cut out for them), but rather how the race is designed in a not so tradition RTS fashion. Same goes for opponents who face vs protoss. So many rules for a RTS game are made redundant and the biggest one being having no supply line + instant reinforcements. Its not something thats normal to what we know in the real world and hence when logic/intuition takes over sometimes during the game, it is perhaps quite frustrating. I think this affects both the protoss player and the opponent. I believe this is where the most difficulty comes from, where a player has to get use to such an abstract race.
On December 22 2013 08:16 TurboMaN wrote: Another thing is that comparing the game design of BW and SC2 is that Terran is on the lower end of easier mechanics.
Protoss: Deathball, very few micro needed in SC2 (e.g. Chargelots), Only Templar and Colo positioning Zerg: Autosurround, all units attack if you just A-click. In BW you had to surround by yourself.
Terran: Constantly needs to hit&run with stutter step, make a concave and dodge AOE (Colofire, Storm).
Where can you say that this game design is fair, when a player of a certain race has to do way more in order to win than his opponent?
I think that's oversimplifying other race's control. A big part of Protoss's micro is before the fight where they have to position their units correctly, especially vs a good Terran that doesn't take the first engagement possible. Zergs can't just a move into stuff, and even though they can auto surround, if a Zerg is going to a move into a Terran, they're gonna get destroyed by mines. I think Terran has a lot more micro to do, but it's not "hard" micro.
Every race has to position their army correctly before a fight though, that's not unique to toss. I'd even argue that Terran's pre-battle positioning is more important than toss because they have to be pre-split multiple control groups in a wide area, whereas toss can just dance their entire death ball back and forth while waiting for the opponent to look weak. And I dont think you've ever tried playing a late game TvP if you think the micro is not hard.. Splitting and kiting bio simultaneously, microing ghosts and vikings separate from the bio while making sure ghosts arent sniped by colossi and vikings aren't focused by stalkers.. And what is toss doing? A-moving the majority of their army and just waiting for ht to come in range of the bio while its kiting chargelots.. And maybe focusing vikings with stalkers (though colossi really start losing their importance as the ghost numbers dwindle). If you lose focus for one second your army can just evaporate.
if your bias is this strong, you might as well don't comment.
Protoss can't just walk around their entire deathball back and forth without vision, this is why they constantly move their deathball AND obs (and spare obs nearby). Unlike Terran who can move around with clear vision of army movement when it comes to actual engagement. (factory and scan)
your micro for Terran is not even correct. You are meant to cloak and emp in pre engagement, not micro them mid way, thus the ghost/HT dance. (unless you doing emps during engagement, just like how HTs do storm...?) You don't even need to split and kit for every engagement, you are meant to kite only if Toss is chargelot heavy and you don't have enough emps for chargelots and hts.
Toss deathball is so much more than just a move and storm.
Oh god you have to move a deathball and an obs at the same time..dont tax yourself too much now...
And it depends on where you consider an engagement to have started and pre-engagement to have ended, but if you consider the ghost micro as before the battle then that just makes Terrans pre battle positioning even more important that it already was. When isn't a toss chargelot heavy? Its a perfect tank and a mineral dump, there are always a shit ton of them. And even if emps land on them they still have 66% of their total health, bio still cant sit there and take it. Also, if youre not kiting the colossi will get in range and hit the bio much easier/faster and it will allow the ht to catch up and storm much easier/faster..so yes you do have to kite and split. Also, if you dont come out ahead of the toss army after the battle, their warp in of 10-15 zealots along with their new archons is going to steamroll you, making kiting and splitting even more important because it helps to maximize the army's efficiency.
And dont get the idea that I've never played as toss on ladder..many time have I amoved everything except my ht against Terran, and just followed my army with storm and easily won.
.. you serious?
Terran move around his deathball by scanning and moving, like that's harder? pre battle positioning is harder for terran? Protoss already has several obs and HTs scattered around way before terran needs to move up the ghosts to cloak etc. When isn't a toss chargelot heavy? Are you forgetting something (stalkers sentries?)
Have you ever watched how top level terrans deal with chargelot heavy composition? such as landing factory or going upon choke point and sit there?
You kite when there is too many chargelots, your vikings aren't going to stop shooting the colossus.
HTs should have already emp/sniped, those hts left behind were either the good protoss left them behind or you failed to emp/snipe them. That being said, we have seen enough games where those HTs are used to buy time for the toss to retreat or else the whole Protoss deathball will get cleaned up.
Whether the chargelots/archons will steamroll you or not will entirely depends on the last engagement, you can also just roll the toss reinforcement by non stop dropping as well.
Don't get the idea I haven't played Terran on ladder either, many times I just build a LOTS of vikings and don't even use ghosts like innovation and win games easily by stim and kiting
On December 22 2013 08:16 TurboMaN wrote: Another thing is that comparing the game design of BW and SC2 is that Terran is on the lower end of easier mechanics.
Protoss: Deathball, very few micro needed in SC2 (e.g. Chargelots), Only Templar and Colo positioning Zerg: Autosurround, all units attack if you just A-click. In BW you had to surround by yourself.
Terran: Constantly needs to hit&run with stutter step, make a concave and dodge AOE (Colofire, Storm).
Where can you say that this game design is fair, when a player of a certain race has to do way more in order to win than his opponent?
I think that's oversimplifying other race's control. A big part of Protoss's micro is before the fight where they have to position their units correctly, especially vs a good Terran that doesn't take the first engagement possible. Zergs can't just a move into stuff, and even though they can auto surround, if a Zerg is going to a move into a Terran, they're gonna get destroyed by mines. I think Terran has a lot more micro to do, but it's not "hard" micro.
Every race has to position their army correctly before a fight though, that's not unique to toss. I'd even argue that Terran's pre-battle positioning is more important than toss because they have to be pre-split multiple control groups in a wide area, whereas toss can just dance their entire death ball back and forth while waiting for the opponent to look weak. And I dont think you've ever tried playing a late game TvP if you think the micro is not hard.. Splitting and kiting bio simultaneously, microing ghosts and vikings separate from the bio while making sure ghosts arent sniped by colossi and vikings aren't focused by stalkers.. And what is toss doing? A-moving the majority of their army and just waiting for ht to come in range of the bio while its kiting chargelots.. And maybe focusing vikings with stalkers (though colossi really start losing their importance as the ghost numbers dwindle). If you lose focus for one second your army can just evaporate.
if your bias is this strong, you might as well don't comment.
Protoss can't just walk around their entire deathball back and forth without vision, this is why they constantly move their deathball AND obs (and spare obs nearby). Unlike Terran who can move around with clear vision of army movement when it comes to actual engagement. (factory and scan)
your micro for Terran is not even correct. You are meant to cloak and emp in pre engagement, not micro them mid way, thus the ghost/HT dance. (unless you doing emps during engagement, just like how HTs do storm...?) You don't even need to split and kit for every engagement, you are meant to kite only if Toss is chargelot heavy and you don't have enough emps for chargelots and hts.
Toss deathball is so much more than just a move and storm.
Oh god you have to move a deathball and an obs at the same time..dont tax yourself too much now...
And it depends on where you consider an engagement to have started and pre-engagement to have ended, but if you consider the ghost micro as before the battle then that just makes Terrans pre battle positioning even more important that it already was. When isn't a toss chargelot heavy? Its a perfect tank and a mineral dump, there are always a shit ton of them. And even if emps land on them they still have 66% of their total health, bio still cant sit there and take it. Also, if youre not kiting the colossi will get in range and hit the bio much easier/faster and it will allow the ht to catch up and storm much easier/faster..so yes you do have to kite and split. Also, if you dont come out ahead of the toss army after the battle, their warp in of 10-15 zealots along with their new archons is going to steamroll you, making kiting and splitting even more important because it helps to maximize the army's efficiency.
And dont get the idea that I've never played as toss on ladder..many time have I amoved everything except my ht against Terran, and just followed my army with storm and easily won.
.. you serious?
Terran move around his deathball by scanning and moving, like that's harder? pre battle positioning is harder for terran? Protoss already has several obs and HTs scattered around way before terran needs to move up the ghosts to cloak etc. When isn't a toss chargelot heavy? Are you forgetting something (stalkers sentries?)
Have you ever watched how top level terrans deal with chargelot heavy composition? such as landing factory or going upon choke point and sit there?
You kite when there is too many chargelots, your vikings aren't going to stop shooting the colossus.
HTs should have already emp/sniped, those hts left behind were either the good protoss left them behind or you failed to emp/snipe them. That being said, we have seen enough games where those HTs are used to buy time for the toss to retreat or else the whole Protoss deathball will get cleaned up.
Whether the chargelots/archons will steamroll you or not will entirely depends on the last engagement, you can also just roll the toss reinforcement by non stop dropping as well.
Don't get the idea I haven't played Terran on ladder either, many times I just build a LOTS of vikings and don't even use ghosts like innovation and win games easily by stim and kiting
Man I really hope youre trolling me... A landed factory is a factor for maybe 10 seconds, and the choke it creates works both ways..stimmed bio cant go running through it without getting evaporated to colossi or storms. And vikings dont kill colossi automatically man. All it takes is a couple laser shots to wipe out a few lines of bio altogether, hence the need to kite until theyre dead. And are you serious?? Stalkers and sentires..first of all neither are mineral dumps or tanks like zealots and therefore automatically fill a different roll (and marauders hard counter stalkers), and toss simply do not make sentries against Terran anymore to any large degree (go back and read some of thedwf's posts). And you do know where the word deathball comes from right? Terran doesnt have a deathball because if theyre units clump up together, aoe will end the game right then and there. Toss on the other hand can keep their units in a ball because the army is stronger that way. This automatically makes Terran battle and positioning micro harder than toss'.
About the zealot archon follow up attack; thats exactly what I said. If you dont come out ahead of the toss in the first fight between maxed (or near maxed) armies that follow up attack is going to be very hard to stop. Also, you cant then load up units and drop because there is an attack coming right in your face. And lets not pretend like warpgate doesnt make drops fairly easy to deal with anyways.. I cant remember the last time I've personally done major damage with drops, or have seen a pro do anything with them without first being very far ahead anyways. Drops are a way to get farther ahead, not to take a lead.
And do you know how hard it is to land those emps with colossi killing off ghosts so easily? Cloak is a joke when toss has a cheap, invisible, flying detector. Even when you scan those damn things are hard to see, and even if you snipe one there is always another waiting to take its place. Im not saying all toss has to do is amove, both races do have to control separate groups of units. But between obs detecting ghosts, blink on stalkers able to surprise vikings for a kill or two everytime they get too close, smart casting for templar on bio, and the insane tankiness of zealots, it just a lot easier/less taxing for toss. And then whereas Terran has to macro a new army during the fight as soon as supply frees up, toss can just warp a new one in at the end in literally 5 seconds and be good to go.
On December 23 2013 14:21 YyapSsap wrote: Im curious. Why do you disagree?
Some people have a fanatical need to defend "their team" no matter what. Its best to learn to recognize this type of poster and mentally filter their posts, maybe read through them for a giggle.
Its quite sad.. because protoss from BW in my opinion was just pure awesome.
And this is just from fomos but SoS says "in the past, great protoss players won. Now players are winning because they are protoss". CJ effort says that T and Z are having a difficult time versus protoss where zerg is having a less rough time compared to Terran.
I think its a matter of time but really want blizz to make some drastic changes that benefits both races in a stagnant matchup + giving protoss more micro potential (and no not by making things move faster).
On December 23 2013 20:38 YyapSsap wrote: Its quite sad.. because protoss from BW in my opinion was just pure awesome.
And this is just from fomos but SoS says "in the past, great protoss players won. Now players are winning because they are protoss". CJ effort says that T and Z are having a difficult time versus protoss where zerg is having a less rough time compared to Terran.
I think its a matter of time but really want blizz to make some drastic changes that benefits both races in a stagnant matchup + giving protoss more micro potential (and no not by making things move faster).
Too late, you said it. Now brace yourself for 3.25 movespeed Blink Colossi.
On December 23 2013 14:21 YyapSsap wrote: Im curious. Why do you disagree?
Some people have a fanatical need to defend "their team" no matter what. Its best to learn to recognize this type of poster and mentally filter their posts, maybe read through them for a giggle.
You can go even further I think, we don't really enjoy playing protoss, we just do it so that the other two races can be miserable on the ladder. I hear some of us even let bots play instead, so that we can enjoy life doing something else while it torments you (the bots aren't too sophisticated, that's why protosses tend to have slow APM).
On December 23 2013 20:38 YyapSsap wrote: Its quite sad.. because protoss from BW in my opinion was just pure awesome.
And this is just from fomos but SoS says "in the past, great protoss players won. Now players are winning because they are protoss". CJ effort says that T and Z are having a difficult time versus protoss where zerg is having a less rough time compared to Terran.
I think its a matter of time but really want blizz to make some drastic changes that benefits both races in a stagnant matchup + giving protoss more micro potential (and no not by making things move faster).
Too late, you said it. Now brace yourself for 3.25 movespeed Blink Colossi.
The scary thing is that that sounds merely "somewhat unlikely" instead of "sorry nope that's batshit insane won't be done ever".
On December 23 2013 20:38 YyapSsap wrote: Its quite sad.. because protoss from BW in my opinion was just pure awesome.
And this is just from fomos but SoS says "in the past, great protoss players won. Now players are winning because they are protoss". CJ effort says that T and Z are having a difficult time versus protoss where zerg is having a less rough time compared to Terran.
I think its a matter of time but really want blizz to make some drastic changes that benefits both races in a stagnant matchup + giving protoss more micro potential (and no not by making things move faster).
Too late, you said it. Now brace yourself for 3.25 movespeed Blink Colossi.
The scary thing is that that sounds merely "somewhat unlikely" instead of "sorry nope that's batshit insane won't be done ever".
I wouldn't be surprised tbh if something like that went through D:
On December 23 2013 20:38 YyapSsap wrote: Its quite sad.. because protoss from BW in my opinion was just pure awesome.
And this is just from fomos but SoS says "in the past, great protoss players won. Now players are winning because they are protoss". CJ effort says that T and Z are having a difficult time versus protoss where zerg is having a less rough time compared to Terran.
I think its a matter of time but really want blizz to make some drastic changes that benefits both races in a stagnant matchup + giving protoss more micro potential (and no not by making things move faster).
Too late, you said it. Now brace yourself for 3.25 movespeed Blink Colossi.
The scary thing is that that sounds merely "somewhat unlikely" instead of "sorry nope that's batshit insane won't be done ever".
I wouldn't be surprised tbh if something like that went through D:
This is just ridiculous, you are ecaggerating, alot. You guys sound like little kids: "Boo-hoo, DK and Balance team hate Terran and love Protoss, they just want us to suffer." You really shoud try to play other races, and find out, that it isn't as easy as it looks like. Although I don't really understand Oracle change, it wasn't realy needed IMO.
I would do some changes to Protoss air. First I would decrease Oracle cost to something like 100/100 (or even 100/75), and supply to 2. Now lots of you must thing: "This guy is just madman." But that's not all, I would remove Pulsar Beam altogether, so Oracle would be just good scouts/detectors. In exchange i would make Graviton Beam (Phoenix lift) dependent on lifted unit's supply. So If you would lift 1 supply unit, you would spend only 25 energy, if you would lift 2 (or more) supply unit, you would spend 50 energy. That way, Protoss would have good harass option, when he goes Stargate tech. It would also make Phoenixes slightly better against marines, which is not bad I think, becouse Protoss air sucks against Marines in general. Also I think, that harass with these buffed Phoenixes would have much higher skill ceiling, than Oracle has right now.
On December 23 2013 14:21 YyapSsap wrote: Im curious. Why do you disagree?
Some people have a fanatical need to defend "their team" no matter what. Its best to learn to recognize this type of poster and mentally filter their posts, maybe read through them for a giggle.
You can go even further I think, we don't really enjoy playing protoss, we just do it so that the other two races can be miserable on the ladder. I hear some of us even let bots play instead, so that we can enjoy life doing something else while it torments you (the bots aren't too sophisticated, that's why protosses tend to have slow APM).
You can enjoy aspects of a race yet recognize its flaws especially when they are ones that would take serious cognitive dissonance not to acknowledge. I play terran yet I think its the most flawed race in the game, even above protoss.
My post wasn't even targeted at protoss players per se, there exist similar posters for all races.
On December 23 2013 23:27 Wombat_NI wrote: In what way do you think Terran is flawed incidentally? Quite interested to hear your thoughts.
To put it short the over-reliance on marine that makes every game look the same, narrows terran players options into hyper-aggressive play, lack of transitions and endgame, the huge chasm between the mechanically talented players and the rest which leads into terran being balanced around Taeja while the race is pretty much dead in lower leagues.
I think the terran problems are probably easier to fix than the protoss ones (nerf the marine, buff everything else, introduce mech as a less mechanically demanding option) because the protoss problems come from really fundamental mechanics like warp gate. Still, in their current state protoss feels like a much more complete race with actual strategy and variety, even if the stuff they can pull off is considered "dirty"
On December 23 2013 10:06 GetHighAndWatchSC2 wrote: If I were David Kim:
TERRAN
Battlecruiser: Add a 1-radius splash to attack. Increase attack range to 9. Infernal Pre-Igniter applies to BC, making each laser do +3 vs light units.
Science Vessel: 100minerals/250gas, 2 supply, requires Starport, Tech lab, fusion core 200hp, 1 armor, max 200 (250 with upgrade) energy, detector Repair (autocast) - Heals mech units 4hp/sec. Cost - 1energy/sec Defensive Matrix - All friendly units within 10 range gain +2armor for 10 seconds. Costs 75 energy. Spell Shield (research: 200m/200g/60s) - All friendly units within 10 range gain spell immunity for 5 seconds, and instantly removes any psi-storms or blinding clouds or fungals within 10 range when cast. Costs 150 energy. Insertnamehere Reactor: 100m/100g/45s - 25 more starting energy and 50 more max energy
Medivac: Afterburner requires research. 100m/100g/60s at tech lab. Change designation from armored to light.
Siege Tank: Transformation AI: 150min/150gas/75s at tech lab. Halves time requires to siege and unsiege. Explosive Ordinance: 100min/100gas/60s at tech lab. Increases each level of splash radius by 33%
Armory: Reduce cost to 100min/50gas
Missile Turret: Mech attack upgrades increase attack damage by 2 each. Hi-sec auto tracking buffs attack range by +2 instead of +1 Explosive Ordinance: 150min/150gas/75sec at engi bay, and requires armory present to research. Missiles do 50% splash damage to enemy fliers. Splash radius 1.
Widow Mine: Takes an additional second to burrow on creep.
ZERG
Roach: Remove Tunneling Claws. Glial Reconstitution also grants roach +1 armor. Caustic Bile: 200min/200gas/90sec at roach warren. Requires infestation pit to upgrade. Roach attack does +8 damage (additional +1 per attack upgrade) versus light units. Attack also applies a debuff which prevents biological units from being healed for 1 second.
Baneling: Baneling morph cannot be canceled once initiated. Banelings count as light units.
Infestation Pit: Malignant Creep: 200min/200gas/60sec. Requires hive. Creep rumors have +2 sight range, +2 creep spread range, and spread creep 50% faster. Creep Nutrients: 100min/100gas/45sec. Zerg ground units double health and energy regeneration while on creep.
Viper: Requires spire and hive to build. Consume may only be used on units, not buildings.
Corruptor: Obsidian Carapace: 150min/150gas/60sec at greater spire. Corruptors gain +1 armor and are immune to splash damage (either from spells or attacks)
Broodmother: Morph from a queen. 400min/400gas/100sec. 8 total supply (+6 from queen). Requires all Zerg tech buildings including greater spire and ultra cavern. Unique unit - only 1 out at a given time. 400hp, 2 base armor, same speed as upgraded roach, 12 sight range. Detector. Spell immune. 50 starting energy, 250 max energy. 40 attack damage (+4 per missile attack upgrade), 0.8 attack speed. Hits ground and air. Attack range 8. Mass Transfuse: 75 energy. All friendly units within 10 range are healed for 100hp. Ensnare: 75 energy. Range 7. Spell radius 2. All enemy air units in the target circle are thrown to the ground and become immobile for 6 seconds. Place Tumor: 10 energy. Puts down an active creep tumor. May be placed off creep. Consume: Consume friendly unit hp for energy.
PROTOSS
Mothership Core: Increase build time to 60 seconds. Builds out of the cyber core. Reduce sight range to 9.
Archon: Khaydarin Core: 150min/150gas/60sec. Research at Templar Archives or dark shrine, and requires both buildings present in order to research. Archon gains +50 shields, +2 shield armor , immunity to EMP, and regenerates shields while in combat.
Oracle: Reduce speed and acceleration to the way it was before the recent patch.
Carrier: Interceptors are free to build.
Tempest: Reduce bonus damage to massive from +50 to +15, but bonus now also applies to ground massive as well. Costs 5 supply.
Fleet Beacon: Reduce cost to 150min/100gas.
Shield Upgrades: Reduce cost to 100m/100g and +75 cost per additional level. Allow shields to be upgraded out of cyber core or forge. Each level of shield upgrade reduces shield loss to EMP by 25%.
Observer: Reduce cost to 25min/50gas. Sensor Array: 100min/100gas/30sec at support bay. Increases sight range by 3 (From 11 to 14)
Sentry: Force field now costs 75 energy instead of 50.
GENERAL:
Cancel Interruption: Buildings currently being constructed may not be canceled if they have taken damage within the last 2 seconds.
Lift Interrutpion: Terran buildings may not be lifted if they have taken damage within the last 2 seconds.
Change the standard number of mineral patches per resource node to: 8 at starting location (no change) 7 at natural expansion locations (-1) 6 at all other nodes (-2)
On any 2-player tournament map, any resource nodes beyond the 8th (or maybe 10th) should be gas only.
That just about does it. I think that would make tournament play a lot more interesting.
Try to explain those changes each.. Curious to know what are you trying to achieve with all that.. At least I did my explaining part no matter of how much being complicated , or at least tried to say the reasoning of why, or the goal of where I was trying to get to..
Can't just say "I think that would make tournament play a lot more interesting", and not have any of correlation with all the other things you posted above.. Also - why nerf explanding to other bases so bad ?
On December 23 2013 23:27 Wombat_NI wrote: In what way do you think Terran is flawed incidentally? Quite interested to hear your thoughts.
To put it short the over-reliance on marine that makes every game look the same, narrows terran players options into hyper-aggressive play, lack of transitions and endgame, the huge chasm between the mechanically talented players and the rest which leads into terran being balanced around Taeja while the race is pretty much dead in lower leagues.
I think the terran problems are probably easier to fix than the protoss ones (nerf the marine, buff everything else, introduce mech as a less mechanically demanding option) because the protoss problems come from really fundamental mechanics like warp gate. Still, in their current state protoss feels like a much more complete race with actual strategy and variety, even if the stuff they can pull off is considered "dirty"
The problem with terran is that it has been figured out by Z and especially P. It´s the same stuff for months and even years and there are no surprises left.
Also every change(speak: nerf) blizzard makes to terran hits much harder because of the building mechanic. Look at the Hellbat. It was supposed to be the "lategame mass zealot warpin" counter, but then they nerfed it and it is gone completely. This would be happen to the WM if it wouldn´t be the only viable option TvZ. By the way am i the only one or have someone ever seen WM Marin Tank in a meaningfull game, like blizzard planned in the first place of the patch? I didnt.
There is no need for a Protoss nerf Terran just need to be scary again. In WoL Terran had problems lategame like now but P had to play much more honest because there were early game threats. Builds like Proxy oracle would never work because P would die to every early Stim timing but now a couple of sentrys and the MSC stop every pre medivac agression with almost no investment.
I personally would suggest changes like:
- Make the photon overcharge a choice to hit either air OR ground to make drops a bit more helpful. - Raven/Banshee changes to make them a early/midgame threat and to get a step closer to make mech playable besides TvT. - Faster Stim researchtime, could help "nurfing" Protss allins. - Do something with the Battlecruiser (looks like Blizzard has given up on it like the carrier) to make it a lategame threat. - Change Ghosts to their old 150/150 costs to get a gas sinker ladegame
On December 23 2013 23:27 Wombat_NI wrote: In what way do you think Terran is flawed incidentally? Quite interested to hear your thoughts.
To put it short the over-reliance on marine that makes every game look the same, narrows terran players options into hyper-aggressive play, lack of transitions and endgame, the huge chasm between the mechanically talented players and the rest which leads into terran being balanced around Taeja while the race is pretty much dead in lower leagues.
Terrans never had to rely on marines in TvT or TvZ in WoL. Mech was perfectly playable in both matchups. Blizzard killed TvZ mech with vipers in HotS and mech was never going to work in TvP because everything that comes out of the factory sucks against most Protoss units.
Terrans never had to rely on marines in TvT or TvZ in WoL
It's false, at least for TvZ.
After Queen buff get really abused by Zerg players and maps gets bigger. You've seen MMM or Mech, but less and less marine-tank. Even MMMHellion was better than marine-tank. After some time you'd only seen MMM or mech, but never the biomech style everyone liked.
I agree with a nerf to marine alongside buff to mech/sky in order to make biomech/mech better. I think nearly all terrans or previous-terrans (who are more numerous than current T players btw) would agree with this.
Since release MMM against toss, since release MMM is viable TvZ, mech have been viable from time to time in TvZ, especially the thor-centric style, but now is completly dead TvP/TvZ.
I don't care if mech or Skycentric composition become the go-to in TvT. As long as it brings other comps/styles in TvZ/TvP.
EPT
, or at least tried to say the reasoning of why, or the goal of where I was trying to get to..
