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On December 22 2013 23:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 22:16 Nebuchad wrote:
Why are you all so hellbent on changing protoss? Apart from the oracle, nothing in protoss is complained about by protoss players. If it doesn't feel nice to play against it as terran, why should we change protoss instead of terran? You have a race where it's admittedly impossible to make transitions, resulting in a lot of units hardly ever being produced, and you want to change the other? Things would be so much easier if terran wasn't the hero and protoss wasn't the villain. Because Zerg players will tell you similar things about the MSC, or the excessive strength of scouted all-ins that can still prevail, or abilities like Time Warp and FF turning their units into crawling snails, etc. The issues that arose in HotS TvP come from the Protoss side (and mostly from the MSC). Terran not being able to transition from bio to mech or the reverse is not a problem; the race simply does not function like this and that's it. Air transitions exist in TvT and TvZ, but not in TvP—again because it's the Protoss side, with Tempests/Templars, that makes them null. What necessity was there exactly that fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 (!) damage to massive Air from 15 (!) range, for instance? That's pure nonsense.
Thanks for answering my post. There weren't air transitions vs protoss in WoL either as far as I know, so I'm not sure you have a point with the tempest. Anyway, if the changes you're advocating for protoss are made with the purpose of terran being able to do transitions in TvP, that caters to the same point and I can agree with that.
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Although the MC is definitely a really strong unit, I feel like it has made Protoss a better race to watch than WOL protoss. It sucks to play against, but seeing Protoss with more options has brought variety to their matchups. Instead of nerfing it you should focus on doing the same for Terran (plus maybe Zerg could use some help with anti-air).
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On December 22 2013 23:55 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 23:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 22 2013 22:16 Nebuchad wrote:
Why are you all so hellbent on changing protoss? Apart from the oracle, nothing in protoss is complained about by protoss players. If it doesn't feel nice to play against it as terran, why should we change protoss instead of terran? You have a race where it's admittedly impossible to make transitions, resulting in a lot of units hardly ever being produced, and you want to change the other? Things would be so much easier if terran wasn't the hero and protoss wasn't the villain. Because Zerg players will tell you similar things about the MSC, or the excessive strength of scouted all-ins that can still prevail, or abilities like Time Warp and FF turning their units into crawling snails, etc. The issues that arose in HotS TvP come from the Protoss side (and mostly from the MSC). Terran not being able to transition from bio to mech or the reverse is not a problem; the race simply does not function like this and that's it. Air transitions exist in TvT and TvZ, but not in TvP—again because it's the Protoss side, with Tempests/Templars, that makes them null. What necessity was there exactly that fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 (!) damage to massive Air from 15 (!) range, for instance? That's pure nonsense. Thanks for answering my post. There weren't air transitions vs protoss in WoL either as far as I know, so I'm not sure you have a point with the tempest. Anyway, if the changes you're advocating for protoss are made with the purpose of terran being able to do transitions in TvP, that caters to the same point and I can agree with that.
Battlecruisers in TvP were extremely rare as you needed to be on 5+ bases, which doesn't happen a lot in TvP (99% of the games are decided before that point), but when you reached this point they were a possibility. The most famous one is Mvp vs Squirtle on Metropolis, but I saw similar things on TheBest's stream when he was playing on Daybreak; whenever he reached a split map scenario (something more common on this map because of the layout), he was trying a Battlecruiser transition. Flash tried the same thing against PartinG in HotS, but of course Battlecruisers were completely bashed by Tempests + the other classic PvT units. In the grand scheme of things it's not really important that Tempests hardcounter Battlecruisers to such an extent, precisely because the few scenarii in which Battlecruisers would be an option are very rare anyway, but it's still a nice illustration of one race losing possibilities because the other side has something too strong against them. This is what Blizzard should consider, as fixing certain interactions between units (e. g. Viper vs Tank; Immortal vs Tank; etc.) would do the trick without major changes of the units themselves.
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On December 22 2013 23:59 Green_25 wrote:
Although the MC is definitely a really strong unit, I feel like it has made Protoss a better race to watch than WOL protoss. It sucks to play against, but seeing Protoss with more options has brought variety to their matchups. Instead of nerfing it you should focus on doing the same for Terran (plus maybe Zerg could use some help with anti-air).
The MSC was a good addition in that PvP was stupidly broken and recall allows protoss to be more offense-oriented in the early game. The problem is that while photon overcharge killed the stupidly OP 4 warp gate all in, it also killed every all in option the other races have against protoss. Also it is so annoying to get all your zealots kited all the time, time warp was a great idea.
I'd like it if Contaminate would disable photon overcharge. Overseer is the same tech level as an MSC so it seems balanced to me. I still think nexus cannon should cost 125 energy though.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 23 2013 00:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 23:55 Nebuchad wrote:On December 22 2013 23:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 22 2013 22:16 Nebuchad wrote:
Why are you all so hellbent on changing protoss? Apart from the oracle, nothing in protoss is complained about by protoss players. If it doesn't feel nice to play against it as terran, why should we change protoss instead of terran? You have a race where it's admittedly impossible to make transitions, resulting in a lot of units hardly ever being produced, and you want to change the other? Things would be so much easier if terran wasn't the hero and protoss wasn't the villain. Because Zerg players will tell you similar things about the MSC, or the excessive strength of scouted all-ins that can still prevail, or abilities like Time Warp and FF turning their units into crawling snails, etc. The issues that arose in HotS TvP come from the Protoss side (and mostly from the MSC). Terran not being able to transition from bio to mech or the reverse is not a problem; the race simply does not function like this and that's it. Air transitions exist in TvT and TvZ, but not in TvP—again because it's the Protoss side, with Tempests/Templars, that makes them null. What necessity was there exactly that fully upgraded Tempests deal 95 (!) damage to massive Air from 15 (!) range, for instance? That's pure nonsense. Thanks for answering my post. There weren't air transitions vs protoss in WoL either as far as I know, so I'm not sure you have a point with the tempest. Anyway, if the changes you're advocating for protoss are made with the purpose of terran being able to do transitions in TvP, that caters to the same point and I can agree with that. Battlecruisers in TvP were extremely rare as you needed to be on 5+ bases, which doesn't happen a lot in TvP (99% of the games are decided before that point), but when you reached this point they were a possibility. The most famous one is Mvp vs Squirtle on Metropolis, but I saw similar things on TheBest's stream when he was playing on Daybreak; whenever he reached a split map scenario (something more common on this map because of the layout), he was trying a Battlecruiser transition. Flash tried the same thing against PartinG in HotS, but of course Battlecruisers were completely bashed by Tempests + the other classic PvT units. In the grand scheme of things it's not really important that Tempests hardcounter Battlecruisers to such an extent, precisely because the few scenarii in which Battlecruisers would be an option are very rare anyway, but it's still a nice illustration of one race losing possibilities because the other side has something too strong against them. This is what Blizzard should consider, as fixing certain interactions between units (e. g. Viper vs Tank; Immortal vs Tank; etc.) would do the trick without major changes of the units themselves.
Actually it has been demonstrated that BCs plus ravens do very well against tempest. The trick is to have some ravens in the back of your army where they can't be feedbacked and protect them carefully, then when the fight starts drop some PDD's at the BC's. Tempest shots get annihilated by PDDs. Get some emps off on the high templar and you'd crush the toss. You can even use yamato to keep BC energy low to prevent feedback damage on them, or rely on your ghost micro to protect their energy to get yamatos off on colossi or something.
Certainly not easy to do at all, but on paper at least it seems viable. You are right though, that games rarely reach this point so we don't really have conclusive data either way, and it still probably favors the protoss, given the range of the tempest and the ease of which the toss can get vision (revelation is pretty much the best thing ever in late game).
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Idea - "Cancel Interruption"
A currently constructing building cannot be canceled if it has taken damage in the last 3 in-game seconds.
Would make expanding more risky.
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On December 22 2013 23:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2013 18:22 VArsovskiSC wrote:IMO Terran is the problem.. Though it might feel - ahhh I like Terran, they are a fine race - yet - fail to perform with them  Well - that's because Terran IS NOT a well designed race.. It's a race in which transitions are nearly impossible to make.. Though there was the Broodwar case as well - dislike that TBH.. Though mech was a viable option as well - it was either one of the two.. NOW - perhaps Blizz could make Mech stronger and make things like making the Siege-Tank dps being "magic" instead of physical and therefore not activate the shield of the Immortal, or they could make that and make the immortal shield being 50% resistant to spells (would hardly affect the other matchups TBH, storm is rarely used in PvP), and make it like the Brood-war-esque scenario where EITHER bio or EITHER mech is strong again.. OR - they could make some of the mech units (for example the Widow-Mine) more versatile and not a specialized unit.. They could buff the thing in every which different way other than being a vs Zerg board-domination unit.. They could rather make it just as it is in total against the Zerg as well as the Protoss.. Could increase damage vs mech, i.e. - non-bio, or could even make the WM CD being shorter.. Like - options are VIABLE TO TEST/EXPERIMENT, but they did nothing.. Blizzard released the WM in it's primary retarded anti-Zerg form which is totally useless vs Protoss IMO.. Out of all the mech units TBH I feel like the only unit that doesn't do it's own job vs Protoss is the WM, hence noone produces them anymore.. If they could do at least a decent board-control vs the Aiur race - then mech, as well as BioMech, would be viable.. The reason I say this is that the problem with Terran is that except the Marines (Marauders, Medivacs, w/e/ - that's just a suplement to the Marines TBH) they have not a single versatile unit anymore.. All the other units (except the Banshee which becomes useless once the opponent has air units or air unit production capability) are designed to "help" marines instead of work on their own.. And THAT's a problem TBH As long as the other two production structures don't have "the marine" - i.e. - a versatile/easy to produce unit - Terran will be a race stuck on Marine tech all game long and things we observe will occur.. Terran will win very easily vs what Marines are strong, Terran will die to what Marines die to.. Simple as that - the whole race ATM is defined by the Marine as a unit, and that's really a bad design y know There are tons of things that are viable in TvT (even too many actually), so you have to wonder why the options are so limited in TvZ and TvP. Why does mech struggle so much in TvZ and TvP? Is it because mech is weak per se, or because Zerg and Protoss have things that vastly overperform against it? Mech does have flaws in the way it is built in SC2 (the developers didn't understand the Tank had to be the core unit; the piece of trash that is the Thor instead of some kind of Goliath, i. e. a more versatile unit indeed), but by softening two of the current hardcounters with two simple changes, you would already see much more mech in TvZ and TvP: - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 5. - Rework Hardened Shields in the following way: it still reduces damage from 10 to 20 to 10 (unchanged), but attacks that deal more than 20 damage are halved instead (e. g. a Siege Tank would deal 25 damage to the shields instead of 10). Regarding options, you have to consider how some Zerg/Protoss things restrict the Terran side. There were tons of agressive openings in WoL TvP, for instance; they still exist, but they now all lose to F-click. Thus the responsibility of Terran's lack of diversity lies at Protoss' door. There is a similar phenomenon with mech: some Zerg and Protoss things are simply way stronger than necessary against mech and thus force or strongly encourage bio play.
Thanks for noticing my post of this sir.. It's an honor to get noticed on this thread in general
TRUE that - one of the things is that P and Z T2 and T3 units defeat mech, or even more in general - beat down the Terran T2 and T3 units.. BUT - having that in mind - I offered the idea/direction to which the problem would be solved..
OK, to get the whole picture - I'll post a few changes/suggestions for few units for each of the races so to understand to where I was going with this:
ZERG:
1 - SwarmHost changes:
a. Reduce cost of SwarmHost - make it 150/75/3 instead of 200/100/3..
b. Increase Locust longevity by 3 sec
c. Decrease DPS of locusts - instead of doing 12 damage, make them do 10 instead
d. Increase bonus of Locusts on creep by 10% (for ex. - if it's 50% - make it 60%)
e. REMOVE ENTIRELY the MOST RIDICULOUS upgrade in the game - The Enduring Locusts upgrade..
By doing those we'll achieve the SwarmHost to become the Roach 2.0 which will be even better than it is for defence (cause of the increased movement speed amount on creep buff), will also be fairly cheap unit for things like drops or at least drop support, but SURELY won't be the stalemate-causing unit we already have cause of the WORST POSSIBLE EVER THOUGHT upgrade
2 - Viper changes:
Increase Abduct casting and pulling range - about up to 12, decrease Viper cost down to 100/175 instead of 100/200, but make it 3 supply instead of 2
This change is to make Zerg's "Hive start" being less gas painful, as well as the previous Swarm-Host change.. Vipers will however be the engaging unit instead of the SwarmHost in stalemate situations instead.. SH without the EL upgrade won't be as good to make those "gathering" points for both armies, and Vipers with some good luck or good play would even be able to pull in Tempests themselves thus making the Zerg's life a bit easier against Protoss while still not relying on the SwarmHost as the main Late-Game unit
3. Corruptor changes (more like Corruption ability change to precise) - instead of Target taking 20% more dps, the change is to make it deal less 25% dps - i.e. - reduce it's OUTPUT damage by 25%.. The corruption will work worse if there are a lot of Zerg units, but will make their usage viable even in situations where the Zerg army is smaller - like for example corrupting Colossi would make Z life easier despite not having a high number of Corruptors around
PROTOSS:
1 - Sentry change:
a. Hallucination change: If units that are Hallucinated are Zealots or Stalkers - then hallu cost will be 75 instead of 100
b.Add an upgrade to the Cybernetics Core that would affect Sentries (won't be bad or too much ups in the Cy-Core now that Hallucination doesn't require one)
--> The upgrade is 100/100/140 and it's effect is the following: The Sentry can reduce AS on it's target by 15%, the debuff on the target can be stacked (1 Sentry would reduce AS by 15%, 2 Sentries by 28%, 3 by 39%, e.t.c.) --> The way it should work is it would make it well effective vs the "big" targets like Tanks/Thors/Ultralisks/Voidrays/e.t.c.
This idea is to make the Sentry being another unit that would be produced other than the openings, i.e. - would be used even later on like when Zealots/Archons - Sentries would still be.. Also - expecting the Sentries to be the more tactical units in battles vs the "improved mech, or at least improved vs Protoss mech" I'd make (see Terran changes below)
2 - Carrier change: Make Interceptors not cost money - i.e. - the ICs on the Carrier now rebuild for FREE
Perhaps would make Carriers somewhat viable as an option if you guard them with Zealots or other smaller units.. Not just a huuuuuge mineral sink on Interceptors once they're out 
3 - Tempest change:
a. Reduce the bonus vs Massive fliers from +50 down to +30, even reduce the upgrade bonuses to fit the new situation (i.e. +2+3 per upgrade instead of +2+5), (don't know the upgrade bonuses Tempests get from Air upgrades, don't get it for granted reason to post reply to this "mistake" pls :D)
b. Tempest supply = 5 supply (is it still 4 supply ?? - if so it's ridiculous, if it's 5 - then OK I think )
The main idea about the Tempest bonus reduction is to make BCs and BLords live a bit more, perhaps even make them viable option despite opponent having Tempests out if you can somehow guard them (by Guard them here I meant - if you're the T or Z and have BCs or BLs respectively against the Tempests)
TERRAN:
Siege-Tank changes: Increase radius of Siege-Tank's splash radius by 15%
Widow Mine changes:
a. WM has 6 activation range instead of 5
b. (This one takes a bit longer to explain, it contains BOTH - tweaks of how the WM works as well what the upgrade does), but overall - here's the change:
1. Reduce WM splash hit radius for 25%
2. Reduce Drilling Claws upgrade cost and time - 150/150/80 instead of 200/200/whatever the long research time it is ATM
3. Add the following effect to WM If DC is researched
--> WM will be able to shoot twice each of it's "reloading cycle" - i.e. in other words - the DC upgraded mines would have a rocket-capacity of 2 rockets, i.e. - increased the max missile-cap up to 2.. The 2 shots occur at 3.5 sec one after another
If only one rocket was fired - then the CD for the WM to recharge is only 10 sec, if both rockets were fired out - the WM recharges as normal - the full "recharge WM cycle" i.e. - 40 sec
With all those mentioned WM changes --> the WM will work much better as an opener defence unit vs Protoss rather than vs Zerg - ie. - 25% less splash is bad vs Zerg as the opener, but the good thing is that it has the 6 range instead of 5 so a bit more beach-head is there and less friendly fire would occur.. Against the Protoss - easily - the WM being 6 range would hit Stalkers beside the fact that they are 6 range.. The real change however occurs once the WM has it's DC upgrade researched --> it will be able to shoot twice at a target for double the primary damage, or will be able to shoot 2 units each.. MUCH more viable to defend positions vs Protoss.. vs Zerg however - about the same performance it has will be performed overall once the DC upgrade has been researched - two lesser splash blobs are about as much as one big blob, only the Zerg will also have a time like 3.5 sec to back-off and halve it's overall losses, the upside of the WM however is that it still holds 1 rocket to fire off, or if more than 10 sec later - it will still have 2 rockets instead..
The increased Siege-Tank splash radius would do what mines would currently now - defend vs larger groups of units..
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Overall those are the changes I'd do/test regarding the current metagame/game-state.. Might be missing something, but not quite sure though..
--> If WMs appear to be working surprisingly over-effective vs Mutalisks, then I guess I'd make Blinding-Cloud make the WMs "blind" to targetting as well..
Hope things would be clear-er to what I'm thinking when saying make other Terran units more versatile rather than only the Marine - in this case I did that with the WM.. And it's a pretty good easy-to-produce candidate that has a lot of potential to be one of the core-unit options for the Terran IMO..
Additionally what I did here is - also did quite a bit of change to the Late-game PvZ units/stalemate - instead of SwarmHosts - now Vipers would be the first-engagement unit for the Zerg overall, which is quite a good/viable/making-sense thing to test/implement IMO..
Ofcourse there might be some very-smaller changes that might make it work, as you said for example the hardened-shield change, but think it's not just about the mech - all the matchups feel like "already-read" in a sence, so yes - like 2-3 units get changed per race.. Besides - notice how the "newgotten" units in HotS weren't even experimented with at all --> it's as if they were just "there" without any experimenting of how else they could've worked (Swarm-Hosts, and WMs mainly), so at least would do those changes out of curiosity TBH
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Also - who the f*ck gives a damn about TvT anyways , I mean there might be viable openers, but ends up in either of the Marine/Tank vs Bio vs Tank/Hell(bat)ion overall, so yah - WM has the potential to work in all matchups well, why not make it like that ?
And if all the changes would be necessary ? - id' probably say no - some of those were added for the change of "look & feel", like the Sentry or the Corruption or the Carrier change, or maybe some for the "compensate" factor like Siege-Tank radius splash buff, lol.. The other ones however are the ones I really meant, so - in other words if I were to make a new PTR/patch - i'd probably start from the changes I above mentioned (The SwarmHost, The Viper, The Widow-Mine, and the Tempest change)
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Protoss warp in units with no shields. Of course the shields will regenerate naturally. But that should be the price they pay for super fast reinforcements.
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-- mistakes happen --
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3 - Tempest change:
a. Reduce the bonus vs Massive fliers from +50 down to +30, even reduce the upgrade bonuses to fit the new situation (i.e. +2+3 per upgrade instead of +2+5), (don't know the upgrade bonuses Tempests get from Air upgrades, don't get it for granted reason to post reply to this "mistake" pls :D)
b. Tempest supply = 5 supply (is it still 4 supply ?? - if so it's ridiculous, if it's 5 - then OK I think )
The Tempest has a important role in making lategame PvP more interesting (only "who has more laser in WOL") and to avoid a zerg super lategame free army BL/Infestor/Swarmhost which would be problematic in low eco lategame ZvP situations.
Siege-Tank changes: Increase radius of Siege-Tank's splash radius by 15%
Would make TvT unplayable.
Widow Mine changes:
a. WM has 6 activation range instead of 5
b. (This one takes a bit longer to explain, it contains BOTH - tweaks of how the WM works as well what the upgrade does), but overall - here's the change:
1. Reduce WM splash hit radius for 25%
2. Reduce Drilling Claws upgrade cost and time - 150/150/80 instead of 200/200/whatever the long research time it is ATM
3. Add the following effect to WM If DC is researched
This would be a massive nerf for T because the most problematic situation besides 4 - 5 base ultralisk is when the mutalisk count gets out of controle above 30.
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On December 23 2013 07:53 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +3 - Tempest change:
a. Reduce the bonus vs Massive fliers from +50 down to +30, even reduce the upgrade bonuses to fit the new situation (i.e. +2+3 per upgrade instead of +2+5), (don't know the upgrade bonuses Tempests get from Air upgrades, don't get it for granted reason to post reply to this "mistake" pls :D)
b. Tempest supply = 5 supply (is it still 4 supply ?? - if so it's ridiculous, if it's 5 - then OK I think ) The Tempest has a important role in making lategame PvP more interesting (only "who has more laser in WOL") and to avoid a zerg super lategame free army BL/Infestor/Swarmhost which would be problematic in low eco lategame ZvP situations. Would make TvT unplayable. Show nested quote +
Widow Mine changes:
a. WM has 6 activation range instead of 5
b. (This one takes a bit longer to explain, it contains BOTH - tweaks of how the WM works as well what the upgrade does), but overall - here's the change:
1. Reduce WM splash hit radius for 25%
2. Reduce Drilling Claws upgrade cost and time - 150/150/80 instead of 200/200/whatever the long research time it is ATM
3. Add the following effect to WM If DC is researched
This would be a massive nerf for T because the most problematic situation besides 4 - 5 base ultralisk is when the mutalisk count gets out of controle above 30.
Did you read about the part about the missile cap increase to 2 once the DC upgrade is researched (as well as the buff for the upgrade itself), or not ?
Though I guess you have a point of the Siege-Tank effect on TvT
Also - 60 damage per shot Tempest is still good vs Colossi, only not THAT good to make them quick-turn-flip around overall, but will still be viable IMO
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Varsovski, I think you overcomplicate the situation.
I have no clue what that swarmhost change should be. it renders them completely useless against anything.
The mine change is overly complicated and imo not needed.
The real problems a patch should tackle is vipers vs Mech, Tank firepower vs Protoss and PvT early game. Maybe tweak mutas a little.
Meanwhile swarmhost stalemates and Tempests being to strong vs BCs are really way, way down the list of stuff that could improve the game. Also your swarmhost idea just renders them useless and your mine idea is very unintuitive to play with and against. And buffing abduct is more than unjustified.
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
On December 22 2013 23:53 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 23:37 bo1b wrote:On December 22 2013 23:26 Nebuchad wrote:On December 22 2013 23:14 bo1b wrote:On December 22 2013 23:08 Nebuchad wrote:On December 22 2013 22:59 bo1b wrote:
Try playing another race for a couple of weeks and you'll probably see why so many people hate it. People hate stuff because people think they deserve to win every game. Just because protoss has the advantage in the current state, doesn't stop people from whining about mutas when Scarlett wins a game vs Naniwa, much like zergs would complain about immortal all-ins when zerg was crazy good in WoL. If you think it proves a point that people would get angry about losing when they switch races, you don't really have a grasp of how anger works. Anyway I'm kind of sad that this is the debate we're having out of my post. That's what you got out of my post? You think I'm writing the stuff I'm writing because I feel people think they should win every game? Really? It's amazing how superior you manage to come across after completely ignoring hundreds of topics, threads and discussions on how things like force field msc and wg ruin games, only to post that incredible speech about my grasp on how anger works. Heres a hint, it has nothing to do with people deserving to win games or not, and everything to do with games being unsatisfying regardless of the result. Playing tvz pre patch from both ends generally felt pretty satisfying, because both players had to put in a ton of micro and multi tasking. Playing zvp and losing to any one of the 2 base all ins almost never feels satisfying. If avillos style of mech was main stream I'd be on here whining about that too, because it has nothing to do with winning or losing and everything to do with how fun it is: not at all. I wish you could see how hard I'm facepalming at your reaction right now. Anyway if you don't want me to consider you dumb, don't tell me to try other races to see how hard mine is, especially not when I come in advocating terran buffs. The entire point of me encouraging warp gate apologists to try another race wasn't to induce epiphanies on how much harder other races are, or why stutter stepping or w/e is impressive. It was to give another perspective on how game ruining the warp gate mechanic is, and to possibly experience losing a game instantly to a forcefield on a ramp and see how that too is (at least in my opinion) a silly game mechanic. You completely missed the point and went off on a tangent about why people get angry in video games, so please, continue face palming. What ever, take from it what you will I suppose. Complaining about warp-gate is pointless unless you are suggesting a viable alternative, that discussion has been had a billion times before.
There have been shitloads of viable alternatives suggested, it's a fucking stupid mechanic that should have been reworked years ago.
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If I were David Kim:
TERRAN
Battlecruiser:
Add a 1-radius splash to attack.
Increase attack range to 9.
Infernal Pre-Igniter applies to BC, making each laser do +3 vs light units.
Science Vessel:
100minerals/250gas, 2 supply, requires Starport, Tech lab, fusion core
200hp, 1 armor, max 200 (250 with upgrade) energy, detector
Repair (autocast) - Heals mech units 4hp/sec. Cost - 1energy/sec
Defensive Matrix - All friendly units within 10 range gain +2armor for 10 seconds. Costs 75 energy.
Spell Shield (research: 200m/200g/60s) - All friendly units within 10 range gain spell immunity for 5 seconds, and instantly removes any psi-storms or blinding clouds or fungals within 10 range when cast. Costs 150 energy.
Insertnamehere Reactor: 100m/100g/45s - 25 more starting energy and 50 more max energy
Medivac:
Afterburner requires research. 100m/100g/60s at tech lab.
Change designation from armored to light.
Siege Tank:
Transformation AI: 150min/150gas/75s at tech lab. Halves time requires to siege and unsiege.
Explosive Ordinance: 100min/100gas/60s at tech lab. Increases each level of splash radius by 33%
Armory:
Reduce cost to 100min/50gas
Missile Turret:
Mech attack upgrades increase attack damage by 2 each.
Hi-sec auto tracking buffs attack range by +2 instead of +1
Explosive Ordinance: 150min/150gas/75sec at engi bay, and requires armory present to research. Missiles do 50% splash damage to enemy fliers. Splash radius 1.
Widow Mine:
Takes an additional second to burrow on creep.
ZERG
Roach:
Remove Tunneling Claws.
Glial Reconstitution also grants roach +1 armor.
Caustic Bile: 200min/200gas/90sec at roach warren. Requires infestation pit to upgrade. Roach attack does +8 damage (additional +1 per attack upgrade) versus light units. Attack also applies a debuff which prevents biological units from being healed for 1 second.
Baneling:
Baneling morph cannot be canceled once initiated.
Banelings count as light units.
Infestation Pit:
Malignant Creep: 200min/200gas/60sec. Requires hive. Creep rumors have +2 sight range, +2 creep spread range, and spread creep 50% faster.
Creep Nutrients: 100min/100gas/45sec. Zerg ground units double health and energy regeneration while on creep.
Viper:
Requires spire and hive to build.
Consume may only be used on units, not buildings.
Corruptor:
Obsidian Carapace: 150min/150gas/60sec at greater spire. Corruptors gain +1 armor and are immune to splash damage (either from spells or attacks)
Broodmother:
Morph from a queen. 400min/400gas/100sec. 8 total supply (+6 from queen). Requires all Zerg tech buildings including greater spire and ultra cavern. Unique unit - only 1 out at a given time.
400hp, 2 base armor, same speed as upgraded roach, 12 sight range. Detector. Spell immune. 50 starting energy, 250 max energy.
40 attack damage (+4 per missile attack upgrade), 0.8 attack speed. Hits ground and air. Attack range 8.
Mass Transfuse: 75 energy. All friendly units within 10 range are healed for 100hp.
Ensnare: 75 energy. Range 7. Spell radius 2. All enemy air units in the target circle are thrown to the ground and become immobile for 6 seconds.
Place Tumor: 10 energy. Puts down an active creep tumor. May be placed off creep.
Consume: Consume friendly unit hp for energy.
PROTOSS
Mothership Core:
Increase build time to 60 seconds. Builds out of the cyber core.
Reduce sight range to 9.
Archon:
Khaydarin Core: 150min/150gas/60sec. Research at Templar
Archives or dark shrine, and requires both buildings present in order to research. Archon gains +50 shields,
+2 shield armor , immunity to EMP, and regenerates shields while in combat.
Oracle:
Reduce speed and acceleration to the way it was before the recent patch.
Carrier:
Interceptors are free to build.
Tempest:
Reduce bonus damage to massive from +50 to +15, but bonus now also applies to ground massive as well.
Costs 5 supply.
Fleet Beacon:
Reduce cost to 150min/100gas.
Shield Upgrades:
Reduce cost to 100m/100g and +75 cost per additional level.
Allow shields to be upgraded out of cyber core or forge.
Each level of shield upgrade reduces shield loss to EMP by 25%.
Observer:
Reduce cost to 25min/50gas.
Sensor Array: 100min/100gas/30sec at support bay. Increases sight range by 3
(From 11 to 14)
Sentry:
Force field now costs 75 energy instead of 50.
GENERAL:
Cancel Interruption:
Buildings currently being constructed may not be canceled if they have taken damage within the last 2
seconds.
Lift Interrutpion:
Terran buildings may not be lifted if they have taken damage within the last 2 seconds.
Change the standard number of mineral patches per resource node to:
8 at starting location (no change)
7 at natural expansion locations (-1)
6 at all other nodes (-2)
On any 2-player tournament map, any resource nodes beyond the 8th (or maybe 10th) should be gas only.
That just about does it. I think that would make tournament play a lot more interesting.
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Balance/Design discussion has reached nth iteration of Warpgate.
Initiate system reset.
GO.
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Northern Ireland25249 Posts
It's bad though, it really is. So many issues arise from it existing in its current form.
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We've had this discussion before, Wombat. And I firmly disagree.
But, not to worry; as the song goes, she'll be coming round the mountain soon enough.
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On December 23 2013 10:51 aZealot wrote:
We've had this discussion before, Wombat. And I firmly disagree.
But, not to worry; as the song goes, she'll be coming round the mountain soon enough.
I'll throw my hat in here with you people with cool accents. I disagree with you! Protoss and races in general need more passive choices that can change how a game is played!
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On December 22 2013 22:16 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 12:32 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 22 2013 10:52 Chaggi wrote:On December 22 2013 08:16 TurboMaN wrote:
Another thing is that comparing the game design of BW and SC2 is that Terran is on the lower end of easier mechanics.
Protoss: Deathball, very few micro needed in SC2 (e.g. Chargelots), Only Templar and Colo positioning
Zerg: Autosurround, all units attack if you just A-click. In BW you had to surround by yourself.
Terran: Constantly needs to hit&run with stutter step, make a concave and dodge AOE (Colofire, Storm).
Where can you say that this game design is fair, when a player of a certain race has to do way more in order to win than his opponent? I think that's oversimplifying other race's control. A big part of Protoss's micro is before the fight where they have to position their units correctly, especially vs a good Terran that doesn't take the first engagement possible. Zergs can't just a move into stuff, and even though they can auto surround, if a Zerg is going to a move into a Terran, they're gonna get destroyed by mines. I think Terran has a lot more micro to do, but it's not "hard" micro. Every race has to position their army correctly before a fight though, that's not unique to toss. I'd even argue that Terran's pre-battle positioning is more important than toss because they have to be pre-split multiple control groups in a wide area, whereas toss can just dance their entire death ball back and forth while waiting for the opponent to look weak. And I dont think you've ever tried playing a late game TvP if you think the micro is not hard.. Splitting and kiting bio simultaneously, microing ghosts and vikings separate from the bio while making sure ghosts arent sniped by colossi and vikings aren't focused by stalkers.. And what is toss doing? A-moving the majority of their army and just waiting for ht to come in range of the bio while its kiting chargelots.. And maybe focusing vikings with stalkers (though colossi really start losing their importance as the ghost numbers dwindle). If you lose focus for one second your army can just evaporate. if your bias is this strong, you might as well don't comment. Protoss can't just walk around their entire deathball back and forth without vision, this is why they constantly move their deathball AND obs (and spare obs nearby). Unlike Terran who can move around with clear vision of army movement when it comes to actual engagement. (factory and scan) your micro for Terran is not even correct. You are meant to cloak and emp in pre engagement, not micro them mid way, thus the ghost/HT dance. (unless you doing emps during engagement, just like how HTs do storm...?) You don't even need to split and kit for every engagement, you are meant to kite only if Toss is chargelot heavy and you don't have enough emps for chargelots and hts. Toss deathball is so much more than just a move and storm.
Oh god you have to move a deathball and an obs at the same time..dont tax yourself too much now...
And it depends on where you consider an engagement to have started and pre-engagement to have ended, but if you consider the ghost micro as before the battle then that just makes Terrans pre battle positioning even more important that it already was. When isn't a toss chargelot heavy? Its a perfect tank and a mineral dump, there are always a shit ton of them. And even if emps land on them they still have 66% of their total health, bio still cant sit there and take it. Also, if youre not kiting the colossi will get in range and hit the bio much easier/faster and it will allow the ht to catch up and storm much easier/faster..so yes you do have to kite and split. Also, if you dont come out ahead of the toss army after the battle, their warp in of 10-15 zealots along with their new archons is going to steamroll you, making kiting and splitting even more important because it helps to maximize the army's efficiency.
And dont get the idea that I've never played as toss on ladder..many time have I amoved everything except my ht against Terran, and just followed my army with storm and easily won.
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On December 23 2013 07:53 TheManInBlack wrote:
Protoss warp in units with no shields. Of course the shields will regenerate naturally. But that should be the price they pay for super fast reinforcements.
I like this idea a lot. Another possibility would be to increase the amount of time for a units to warp in to the neighborhood of 15-20 seconds, but to decrease the cooldown on the gate so that the total time between units remains the same. Also, a gateway that is chronoed during the warp in phase would warp the unit in faster.
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EPT
