EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 859
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On December 31 2013 12:05 InfamousOne wrote: I have also quit playing sc2 since terran is in such a horrible spot right now and blizzard hasnt done anything about it or even updated us.. I love starcraft more than any game in the world... been playing since a kid... now, all I play is LOL because of how imbalanced I personally feel the game is, my opinion of course... tho seems to be a lot of people's opinions Yeah, I believe they should release a new race each week that is better than the others. But you can play it only if you pay and after some time they'll nerf it to the level of the rest. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 31 2013 03:00 Ana_ wrote: So maybe blink allins are defendable by sensor tower. Thx TY! #IWantToBelieve Although the sensor tower was neat and it did allow TY move into the mid game safer, the all-in was held before the tower was up. Cjhero's build was a blink + DT variation and he didn't have enough stalkers on his first blink up. Plus he only put down 1 timewrap which TY walked around without taking damage. If you compare to Rain vs Dream, Rain was able to take down 3-4 marines while Dream was still stuck in the time wrap (notice that both Terrans did not have bunkers at the spot, they had 2 in natural and one close to the ramp.) Those 3-4 marines kills + more stalkers (due to no DTs) allowed Rain to snowball. | ||
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
On December 31 2013 09:27 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: [QE]On December 31 2013 08.5 Extenz wrote: I dunno why terran say early game aggression vs Protoss is impossible, ever heard of medivac?Force overcharge at natural and load into the main, boom, the almighty MSC is now useless. DUDE if it was that simple dont you think it would have been the norm by now?? thanks for being a genius though. and btw I think you cant technically call it early game once you reach the 10 minute mark. Im talking about 6 min something medivac push with 8 marines or 6 and a mine... It's very good vs toss since they just rely on msc and you just load into the main | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 31 2013 13:40 Extenz wrote: DUDE if it was that simple dont you think it would have been the norm by now?? thanks for being a genius though. and btw I think you cant technically call it early game once you reach the 10 minute mark. Im talking about 6 min something medivac push with 8 marines or 6 and a mine... It's very good vs toss since they just rely on msc and you just load into the main[/QUOTE] I think this has problems vs blink builds (because protoss are stocking up on stalkers) and oracle builds. You need to cut a lot of things to get medivacs out by 6 mins because of gas cost of factory, starport and medivac. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 31 2013 13:40 Extenz wrote: Im talking about 6 min something medivac push with 8 marines or 6 and a mine... It's very good vs toss since they just rely on msc and you just load into the main rsvp wrote: I haven't had much problems facing early widow mines going 1 gate FE. I like to get mostly stalkers out of my first gateway (no sentries), and immediately go for a robo for an early obs. An early MSC to make sure you have enough energy for a photon overcharge when the attack hits helps a lot as well. The widow mine attack in this replay probably comes a bit later than what you're talking about, but as you can see I'm prepared with MSC and obs + stalkers a long time before the attack hits anyway. Just make sure to micro your stalkers carefully against widow mines (don't attack move into them even with detection, always target fire them otherwise your stalkers will just run into their range before the AI realizes it has a target). http://drop.sc/313924 As rsvp said, the attack could come a few seconds earlier if you go gas first, skip the bunker and first WM (making you die to stalker pokes and oracle builds), but it's a tiny difference in terms of timing. And there are enough stalkers, production, an obs and msc to defend the push easily. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:22 keglu wrote: With all the crying about Protoss suprisingly Zerg will be stronger in both matchups and TvZ will be most imbalanced matchup in december(Aligulac) At least the match up is fun to play and demanding for the zerg player. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:22 keglu wrote: With all the crying about Protoss suprisingly Zerg will be stronger in both matchups and TvZ will be most imbalanced matchup in december(Aligulac) Where can we find it? Or do we have to wait until tomorrow? Also, were there any tournaments of note in December? I thought there were just the relatively small Northcon and GSL's Hot6 Cup. Northcon was dominated by zergs, but it's only a few games. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 31 2013 09:13 Aveng3r wrote: So im browsing the terran help me thread looking for a way to cheese protoss. I am done playing the matchup. done. cant deal with late game toss, the plethora of cheeses that they can do, cant deal with it. I AM DONE. and I cannot find a cheese that works. how the fuck is this a fair game when protoss can pick and choose between a seamingly endless array of cheeses, off of 1 or 2 bases, and I have to sit here and try to defend against all of them if I have any hope of winning? and how it is fair that even if I manage to survive to the lategame, I am expected to micro like a fucking professional to survive any battles at all, where all toss has to do is a-click and cast storms? somebody explain this to me. also if anyone has a cheese that they can throw my way, that would be great. Some proxy raxs that work at high master level. I didn't play for a couple of weeks due to my finals but I used to do this kind of 4 rax that worked quite well against protoss. It's auto win vs all kind of proxy and may work (50% I'd say) against gate expand build. Enjoy. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:38 Ghanburighan wrote: Where can we find it? Or do we have to wait until tomorrow? Also, were there any tournaments of note in December? I thought there were just the relatively small Northcon and GSL's Hot6 Cup. Northcon was dominated by zergs, but it's only a few games. I just looked at 99-101 lists, precise results should be available tommorow. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:51 keglu wrote: I just looked at 99-101 lists, precise results should be available tommorow. Cheers! Edit: Here are the numbers: PvT 93–72 (56.36%) PvZ 99–131 (43.04%) TvZ 42–82 (33.87%) Note that this also says that PvT deteriorated slightly. It also says that the number of games is tiny and extremely open to variation. In PvT 1 map is worth 0.6%, in PvZ, 0.4% and in TvZ 0.8%. In the latter, a 2-0 shifts balance by almost 2%. On the other hand, it's would boost it to just over 35%  . | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:53 Ghanburighan wrote: Cheers! Edit: Here are the numbers: PvT 93–72 (56.36%) PvZ 99–131 (43.04%) TvZ 42–82 (33.87%) Note that this also says that PvT deteriorated slightly. It also says that the number of games is tiny and extremely open to variation. In PvT 1 map is worth 0.6%, in PvZ, 0.4% and in TvZ 0.8%. In the latter, a 2-0 shifts balance by almost 2%. On the other hand, it's would boost it to just over 35% .http://aligulac.com/periods/101/ List 101 Start December 26th, 2013 End January 8th, 2014 Games 790 PvT 93–72 (56.36%) PvZ 99–129 (43.42%) TvZ 42–82 (33.87%) Mirrors 114 PvP, 29 TvT, 125 ZvZ I don't know if we can conclude much from games played in the last 5 days. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
PvT : 503 450 52,78% PvZ : 683 750 47,66% TvZ : 415 497 45,5% + Show Spoiler [source] + Reports 99-101, consecutively: PvT 220–189 190–189 93–72 PvZ 315–341 269–280 99–129 TvZ 205–232 168–183 42–82 | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 31 2013 22:37 Orek wrote: http://aligulac.com/periods/101/ List 101 Start December 26th, 2013 End January 8th, 2014 Games 790 PvT 93–72 (56.36%) PvZ 99–129 (43.42%) TvZ 42–82 (33.87%) Mirrors 114 PvP, 29 TvT, 125 ZvZ I don't know if we can conclude much from games played in the last 5 days. There isn't tooo much to conclude from that, but 29 TvTs out of 800 games (whereas a matchup should have a precense of 17%, ideally, gives us a percantage of less than 4% TvTs. And a tiny number of games including Terran often means only the very very best get to play. There's few of the very very best, but they can match the Protosses and Zergs of comparably lower levels, thus, giving reasonably even winrates. In balance, IMO, the amount of mirrors played is pretty telling of patterns, and even though the numbers are low, the tinytiny amount of games including Terran is frightening. That being said, this is generally the off season in SC2, and the numbers arent that high either. | ||
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dangthatsright
1158 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:00 SC2Toastie wrote: There isn't tooo much to conclude from that, but 29 TvTs out of 800 games (whereas a matchup should have a precense of 17%, ideally, gives us a percantage of less than 4% TvTs. And a tiny number of games including Terran often means only the very very best get to play. There's few of the very very best, but they can match the Protosses and Zergs of comparably lower levels, thus, giving reasonably even winrates. In balance, IMO, the amount of mirrors played is pretty telling of patterns, and even though the numbers are low, the tinytiny amount of games including Terran is frightening. That being said, this is generally the off season in SC2, and the numbers arent that high either. to nitpick, each non-mirror is twice as likely to appear as each mirror, so TvT should be around 11% as opposed to 17% | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:00 SC2Toastie wrote: There isn't tooo much to conclude from that, but 29 TvTs out of 800 games (whereas a matchup should have a precense of 17%, ideally, gives us a percantage of less than 4% TvTs. And a tiny number of games including Terran often means only the very very best get to play. There's few of the very very best, but they can match the Protosses and Zergs of comparably lower levels, thus, giving reasonably even winrates. In balance, IMO, the amount of mirrors played is pretty telling of patterns, and even though the numbers are low, the tinytiny amount of games including Terran is frightening. That being said, this is generally the off season in SC2, and the numbers arent that high either. Yeh this is what I have been saying for the last year or so. The real balance-problem isn't related to the W/R them selves. Tey will eventually go towards 50%. However, over time the best indiciator of balance-problems are related to the number of competitive games played by terran players relative to games played by other races. The fact that there are so few competitive terran players out there, means that there are only the best of the best left. If the game was balanced, they should have a W/R of above 50% against the subtop protoss and zerg players (that they currently are facing). But they don't, and that's the real problem here, and is something that Blizzard seems to completely ignore/not fully understand. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:11 dangthatsright wrote: to nitpick, each non-mirror is twice as likely to appear as each mirror, so TvT should be around 11% as opposed to 17% Wow massive booboo on my part 0.0! Thanks for the correction! | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12172 Posts
On December 31 2013 20:22 keglu wrote: With all the crying about Protoss suprisingly Zerg will be stronger in both matchups and TvZ will be most imbalanced matchup in december(Aligulac) I don't find that surprising at all | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:16 Hider wrote: Yeh this is what I have been saying for the last year or so. The real balance-problem isn't related to the W/R them selves. Tey will eventually go towards 50%. However, over time the best indiciator of balance-problems are related to the number of competitive games played by terran players relative to games played by other races. The fact that there are so few competitive terran players out there, means that there are only the best of the best left. If the game was balanced, they should have a W/R of above 50% against the subtop protoss and zerg players (that they currently are facing). But they don't, and that's the real problem here, and is something that Blizzard seems to completely ignore/not fully understand. The concept is kinda 'vague' to explain, but what it comes down too: When there's considerably less Terran games than Protoss/Zerg games (like, 20% Terran / 40% P&Z), you can state there might be an imbalance in the gameplay favoring P/Z over T, DESPITE winrates seeming to be even (50%/50%). To explain why this happens, I'll use a few terms to express myself more clearly: Player Skill, how skilled is a player Racial Strenght, how strong is a race vs another Output, how high does a player rank with a certain skill and strenght? If Racial strenght is not equally spread, a certain race needs a higher skill level to go toe to toe with a lesser player from a 'better' race. Winrates are about 50%, but there will be only 5 terrans getting past round one in a Ro64/Ro132 tournament, because all others fell in the first round. The ONLY show of this is a terribly low amount of games played by Terran. TLDR - Winrates can be 50%, but the skill levels required for both players might not be, thus the game is imbalanced, and it shows in the amount of games played by one race. + Show Spoiler + I don't mean to insinuate imbalance, just using examples here hoping it gets more clear | ||
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