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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Take a near perfectly balanced matchup, slightly weaken one race, be surprised the other race suddenly became stronger  !I'm still going to stick to the comment of December being a bad month to draw conclusions from because of the lack of major tournaments with an even distribution of skilled players, as well as most players taking time off. January and this last week of Proleague matches are what will show the patters are. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:16 Hider wrote: Yeh this is what I have been saying for the last year or so. The real balance-problem isn't related to the W/R them selves. Tey will eventually go towards 50%. However, over time the best indiciator of balance-problems are related to the number of competitive games played by terran players relative to games played by other races. The fact that there are so few competitive terran players out there, means that there are only the best of the best left. If the game was balanced, they should have a W/R of above 50% against the subtop protoss and zerg players (that they currently are facing). But they don't, and that's the real problem here, and is something that Blizzard seems to completely ignore/not fully understand. I don't see the winrates going to 50% eventually. The overall Terran winrate has been <50% since August, and that's why we see less Terran players currently (e.g. in Proleague). Or less TvTs. Even if there are same amount of Terrans in a tournament, the amount of TvTs (or in general T games) will be lower since the Terrans are not as likely to meet as often, due to falling out a little eariler and thereby providing less games. The winrates in WoL TvZ didn't go to 50-50 eventually. They went to 45% and then they stayed there. (in the GSL Terran had 1-2 good seasons, but eventually the winrates also rather dropped than went to 50%). It's rather that the player amount in high level tournaments (or in general) correlates to balance. Surely not 1-to-1 but based upon SC2's history there is something. E.g. Low Zerg winrates at the beginning of WoL, low amount of Zerg proplayers in highlevel tournaments. E.g2 Low amount of Terran winrates at the end of WoL -> low amount of Terran proplayers in highlevel tournaments. I don't think we have an example of 50-50 winrates over a reasonable timeframe despite strongly deviating amount of players. That would only be achieved after a long periode of time in which balance (=/= winrates) hasn't shifted and every "lowtier" Terran that can't compete with the "lowtier" Protoss/Zerg has really "proven" to not being able to keep up. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 31 2013 23:42 SC2Toastie wrote: Take a near perfectly balanced matchup, slightly weaken one race, be surprised the other race suddenly became stronger !I'm still going to stick to the comment of December being a bad month to draw conclusions from because of the lack of major tournaments with an even distribution of skilled players, as well as most players taking time off. January and this last week of Proleague matches are what will show the patters are. I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. | ||
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Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On January 01 2014 03:07 vthree wrote: I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. I don't really see how the quote comes into that..... On January 01 2014 03:50 Soldier92 wrote: Starcraft players have a tendency to whine in general. I wouldn't pin it on any one race, each has had it's phases of complaining they were underpowered. Because of the feeling of helplessness and a total radiosilence from Blizzard, probably. If you feel like nothing is happening and nobody is looking into the perceived problem, it's natural you want to express yourself. What happens usually in this community is that people start to defend the accused race, which leads to discussions, which are dominated with either hyperbole (results in 'whine') or trolls and flamebaits (resulting in 'whine') The community is to blame for this, as a result of Blizzard not being open on what they are doing. How I suppose it feels for Terran right now: We had 2 matchups going pretty fine, TvZ was balanced, TvP was on the edge of maybe possible somehow being a tiny weeny bit in Protoss' favor but nothing major, into: Getting nerfed in TvZ for 'better gameplay' - resulting in the same gameplay but a worse staple unit Getting one of the most dangerous and uncomminted cheeses of Protoss buffed, resulting in Terran needing to play overly safe early game to defend from the next weird attack that should be all in but isn't . So, what I suppose Terrans feel like: Getting shafted in both matchups for NO reason (TvZ: Changing gameplay to be more 'fun', TvP: A reason still unknown to everybody, because buffing speed only increased the ussage of proxu oracles, not of lategame oracle or stargate TvP) and not getting any response from Blizzard after winrates start to plummet. I guess it's just a reaction to being kneejerked a bit... | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On January 01 2014 03:07 vthree wrote: I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. Thank you for stereotyping a large subset of people you've never met. What a constructive post... | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12169 Posts
On January 01 2014 03:07 vthree wrote: I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. And you're complaining about protoss complaing about the terrans' complaining. You're so meta. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On January 01 2014 05:36 SC2Toastie wrote: I don't really see how the quote comes into that..... Because of the feeling of helplessness and a total radiosilence from Blizzard, probably. If you feel like nothing is happening and nobody is looking into the perceived problem, it's natural you want to express yourself. What happens usually in this community is that people start to defend the accused race, which leads to discussions, which are dominated with either hyperbole (results in 'whine') or trolls and flamebaits (resulting in 'whine') The community is to blame for this, as a result of Blizzard not being open on what they are doing. How I suppose it feels for Terran right now: We had 2 matchups going pretty fine, TvZ was balanced, TvP was on the edge of maybe possible somehow being a tiny weeny bit in Protoss' favor but nothing major, into: Getting nerfed in TvZ for 'better gameplay' - resulting in the same gameplay but a worse staple unit Getting one of the most dangerous and uncomminted cheeses of Protoss buffed, resulting in Terran needing to play overly safe early game to defend from the next weird attack that should be all in but isn't . So, what I suppose Terrans feel like: Getting shafted in both matchups for NO reason (TvZ: Changing gameplay to be more 'fun', TvP: A reason still unknown to everybody, because buffing speed only increased the ussage of proxu oracles, not of lategame oracle or stargate TvP) and not getting any response from Blizzard after winrates start to plummet. I guess it's just a reaction to being kneejerked a bit... Speak that gospel! TvZ will never be marine/tank again as long as mutas have godlike regen and speed, no matter how badly the wm gets nerfed. I've even seen bomber going pure marine/medivac since the nerf on his stream..tanks just arent viable anymore. And I couldnt have said it any better about the oracle buff. How does making a unit faster mean its harder to micro?? Wtf... Thats like saying phoenix micro is hard. And fuck the MSC, fuck it right to hell. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 01 2014 05:41 Wingblade wrote: Thank you for stereotyping a large subset of people you've never met. What a constructive post... Same with Protoss that complain all Terrans do is whine and never 'adapt'. Your post is really constructive too. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
On January 01 2014 03:07 vthree wrote: I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. You know this wouldn't be half as pathetic if you weren't a giant hypocrite Vthree. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
I mean just to compare the current situation: -Protoss late game composition is something the protoss player can ALWAYS strive for since it will be much better than any mid game compositions. Your army will simply get better and better with more upgrades and high tech units. -Late game Protoss units synergises very well with each other especially when they all move at identical movement speeds AND a key AOE damager dealer in the form of the Colossus can ignore collision size. -Late game Protoss army is GROUND focused (unless one goes air) meaning there is no risk of overmaking air units (which have plagued T/Z for years) because no one makes them in the first place in this matchup outside all-ins or perhaps tempests. -Gateway units simply become specialists as time goes on a) Easily replenish-able (warpgates) meatshield unit in the form of a Zealot + Shift Click A to Terran expansion mineral dumps that could literally cause HUGE damage if not properly dealt with. b) Stalkers which I believe is the weakest unit in the late game becomes a pure AA unit (role is significantly reduced to not negativity affect the deathballs effectiveness) where only a few is required as vikings can be dealt by Archons, Storms from HTs. c) No one uses sentries these days outside free phoenix scouts and some sort of an all-in unlike WoL where careful number of sentries were required to stop early game Terran aggression. This also happened to really show the really good protoss players to the really awful ones. On the other hand it really magnifies the problem with Terran in that: -There simply is NO ultimate Terran deathball composition in the matchup for a Terran player to strive to. Replacing the core MM with entirely ghosts? this has somewhat worked in the past but its as fragile as MMM because ghosts don't have stim and a single storm can really turn things south for the Terran. It will always be some form of MMMVG with a Raven or two. There is nothing to dump that gas on to make things better and better to eliminate the sudden "50 supply down" Terran army evaporated in two seconds because protoss got 1~2 storms off from a rogue HT out of 10 HTs.. -Late game Terran units are non-existent. I mean what can you spend the gas on? -Late game Terran army composition is far too tedious to control properly. If it was to be broken down to three core things it would be: a) Ghosts need to neutralise HTs on top of EMPs. b)MM needs to be ready to stutter step and spread out/stim for an engagement. c) Vikings need to be spread to minimize storms. Where if sequencing through a->b->c, a single HT during the c sequence can destory half the Terran force because a perfect storm went off. These things cannot be done simultaneous resulting in that risk of half the army dyinge unless all the threat has been neutralized, -The Terran composition is highly fragile and can have very different movement speeds due to stim meaning that a single slip in control can be very very punishing. This is on top of Protoss being able to control the pacing of the early game, to minimise the mid game window for the Terran to flex the MMM/stim timing and then lead onto the inevitable late game where it becomes an uphill battle. Terran can only defend with supply dependent units to protect expansions (only applies to the 3rd expansion which also happens to be the most important and no one should be getting PFs for their 3rd expansion) or the production. These are the same units used for harass because every other form of harass e.g. hellion/banshee/mines are ALL negated by a few cannons. On the other hand, mineral dumped zealots and cannons (perhaps a DT or two) make the perfect recipe for a late game protoss to defend and harass the opponent at will. Zergs are somewhat ok because spores and spines are supply-less. For Terran, having a few MM is far more efficent to have than any other composition possible. Even PFs can be rendered useless by having ~2 stalkers behind the mineral line unless you commit more of the supply to defend. As a spectator, this matchup is possibly the worst (even PvP is better) because everyone knows the T is somewhat handicapped at the moment. The Terran composition cannot evolve outside of anything other than MMM, the strategy that most Terrans use are the same (drop/harass and pray) they cannot do anything "special" early game since they will get punished severely and simply play until the inevitable protoss deathball with scary firepower scorches half the Terran army then into defeat. 3 Years have been a long time and quite frankly its getting borderline unwatchable/unplayable. They should really invest their time into looking at this matchup and breath some new viability-ness of the unused Terran units so that Protoss also can be played out differently along with what is standard so far. A way where both sides can dictate the pace of the game given the players skill.. not a thing dependent on race advantages. And perhaps where late game scales very well on both sides. Im going to be honest and say that protoss back in the days, I could really see a player e.g. rain who were just a better player and it was interesting to watch him win because everyone knew he did it with skill. Now it doesn't seem so and rather find it hard to really see how protoss players can differentiate themselves because everything seems so limited. If Blizz can address the two... it would be simply awesome. I can't for the life me remember the last time I saw a TvT.. (and this doesn't necessarily mean I want things thwe way they were back in GomTvT). Having a few more Terrans makes things interesting instead of being a tourney dominated by Protoss players (or perhaps Z). My 2 cents after watching that game. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On January 01 2014 18:35 Survivor61316 wrote: Speak that gospel! TvZ will never be marine/tank again as long as mutas have godlike regen and speed, no matter how badly the wm gets nerfed. I've even seen bomber going pure marine/medivac since the nerf on his stream..tanks just arent viable anymore. And I couldnt have said it any better about the oracle buff. How does making a unit faster mean its harder to micro?? Wtf... Thats like saying phoenix micro is hard. And fuck the MSC, fuck it right to hell. I agree on TvZ the "this is not a nerf, its to make the gameplay more fun with tanks and WM" is either a lie or a massive failure like thinking the queen buff only affected the early game. Right now it´s just a massive nerf to terran. TvP looks sometimes balanced, sometimes not. A big thing is the current mappool. There is no map out there that is terran favored, but there are a tons of maps that are P favored in TvP. Yonsue, Frost or Star Station just have to go away or changed in a way that the blink alling isn´t that effective anymore and the 2 base blink that makes always some sort of damage no matter how good you respond. Right now its just to easy for P to win randomly. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Terran not having the stronger lategame potential in the matchup (feel free to try to correct me), it would be normal if Terran had some sort of timing window where it is actually stronger than Protoss army and tech-wise, right? (the so-called asymmetrical balance Blizzard is content with). In WoL you could argue that it was the full first 10 minutes, and the matchup wasn't ridiculously Terran favored. Nowadays, the sole reason the winrates haven't gone down to 20% is the 30s-1minute window when medivacs, +1 and stim are up. That's a pretty thin window. Edit: As for the other matchups: TvZ seems fine to me, even if the last nerf was pretty unnecessary. And I hope TvT isn't leaning toward full-on mech vs mech, I don't like to play it :D | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Still a shame though, the match up pre widow mine nerf was the best (balance wise) ever imo. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
E.g. TvP, the main cannot be blinked onto other than from the frontal ramp/natural. PvZ, it doesn't have exposed non movable areas around its main e.g. Polar night so that mutalisks can't attack at literally all angles. TvZ, no sensor towers meaning you can't just have 2 lings spawned to take map control for a very long time or futher away thirds. I think Day9 is a big proponent of using maps to balance while leaving the unit stats alone. | ||
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SiroKO
France721 Posts
I'm happy a lot of people here seem to understand (basic) statistics. We seem to be back to pre-HoTS, when Terrans was both the least plaid and worse race. On December 09 2013 19:36 SiroKO wrote: For now 52-48% is totally fine. Though if the gap widens, or the number of competitive terran players decrease, or worse : both, there would be a problem. This is a parameter which is not often (never?) taken into account in balance analysis. When a race gets worse, the number of "competitive" players of this race decrease (in other words the worse Terran players stop to get invited, and they are less terrans at tournaments), and therefore the win-ratio doesn't necessarily decrease for that race. Symetrically, when a race gets better, a lot of "frauds", patch-X whatever, get suddenly invited to prestigious tournaments and contribute to decrease the win ratio of their race. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 01 2014 20:43 YyapSsap wrote: Maps are quite an interesting idea.. but I think they aren't being used enough to really affect "balance". E.g. TvP, the main cannot be blinked onto other than from the frontal ramp/natural. PvZ, it doesn't have exposed non movable areas around its main e.g. Polar night so that mutalisks can't attack at literally all angles. TvZ, no sensor towers meaning you can't just have 2 lings spawned to take map control for a very long time or futher away thirds. I think Day9 is a big proponent of using maps to balance while leaving the unit stats alone. Wanna comment on blink in the context of mapping. Yeonsu and Star Station are the most extreme maps currently for blink - and they are already very carefully selected from maps/layouts that could be much worse. e.g. - more than 90 degree blinkable maps. - a layout that gives the blinking attacker a shorter path maneuvering between natural and main than the defender. The only way to not make them powerful is to design every map with a ditch and only one frontal entrance and the bases are cramped into a corner. If you want other maps, you have to accept that on such blinkallins will be very potent. Similarily with mutalisks. Put the bases in a corner, don't allow airspace. That's the only way. We have those maps. They are good. They have been around since the break of day and mapmakers can copy those layouts over and over again. But then people must not whine about the implications. If you balance against mutalisk (and drop!!!!!) harass, those tools won't get used and the map must be strong for turteling and deathballing for those races, else it doesn't work. XNWT imo aren't a real problem for ZvT. They are nice, but every Zerg starting in the midregions of ladder will have so many more spotters and creep, that the difference is in many cases marginal, especially at prolevel. Meanwhile I think Terran enjoys certain watchtower setups greatly, namely those that can be used in pushes close to the opponents bases to prevent flanks and keep track of mutalisks like on Star Station, Polar Night or Frost. (don't know what I would do without the watchtowers on Polar Night). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 01 2014 23:38 Big J wrote: Wanna comment on blink in the context of mapping. Yeonsu and Star Station are the most extreme maps currently for blink - and they are already very carefully selected from maps/layouts that could be much worse. The mighty Heavy Rain comes to claim the throne next season. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
On January 01 2014 03:07 vthree wrote: I think the PL teams all send out mostly Ps tells use something... It was the Protoss whiners that kept on saying Protoss was good in Bo1 only... But now that they are winnings tournaments, Protoss crybabies are crying about other races complaining about Protoss. Protoss are just crybabies in general. Such a stupid claim. All races are crybabies in general. If terran was overpowered terrans would think the game was fine and Z/P learned to adapt, if zerg was overpowered they would think the game was fine and T/P learned to adapt. People need to stop believe that there's a difference between the people behind the races. Everyone will always root for their own race and have a hard time seeing their own race as op. It's not about a certain race or something, it's about the human nature of not liking to accept that you won a game because of the race rather than your skill. Everyone will always complain and even if it was 50% in all match-ups, people would still find excuses for their losses. EDIT: I'm a protoss and yes I believe protoss needs a nerf at the moment. But I also believe any terran laddering at the moment will totally ignore their own part and instantly claim "protoss op" if they lose. They've decided that protoss is op and if they lose, it's because of that. While a nerf to toss is needed, the toxic attitude among terran ("Protos fucking op", "protoss fucking amove race", "protoss so stupid", and so on) needs to stop. | ||
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