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On January 01 2014 23:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2014 23:38 Big J wrote:On January 01 2014 20:43 YyapSsap wrote:
Maps are quite an interesting idea.. but I think they aren't being used enough to really affect "balance".
E.g.
TvP, the main cannot be blinked onto other than from the frontal ramp/natural.
PvZ, it doesn't have exposed non movable areas around its main e.g. Polar night so that mutalisks can't attack at literally all angles.
TvZ, no sensor towers meaning you can't just have 2 lings spawned to take map control for a very long time or futher away thirds.
I think Day9 is a big proponent of using maps to balance while leaving the unit stats alone. Wanna comment on blink in the context of mapping. Yeonsu and Star Station are the most extreme maps currently for blink - and they are already very carefully selected from maps/layouts that could be much worse. The mighty Heavy Rain comes to claim the throne next season.
Hm, I think it could work out well:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b3U0Jl0.jpg)
If you leave the yellow areas building free, the green areas should give you more than enough space to build all your infrastructure.
Which makes the ways to attack for the Stalkers very long and they have to expose themselves deeper in the base without the possibility to blinkmicro downwards. Additionally your ramp is not exposed like on Yeonsu.
It's still going to be a strong blinkmap, but Yeonsu looks scarier to me because
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YPXMu2V.jpg)
on Yeonsu the (red) stalkers immidiatly find targets everywhere when they blink in and the MsC can control so much space from a safe distance.
But in either case, if you are not well prepared you won't have the slightest chance of holding.
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Aligulac results are up
PvT most balanced matchup , Zerg imba
PvT: 51,74%
PvZ: 47,02%
TvZ : 45,65%
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 02 2014 02:43 keglu wrote:Aligulac results are up PvT most balanced matchup , Zerg imba PvT: 51,74% PvZ: 47,02% TvZ : 45,65%
And so the laws of logic were denied once again. Except for TvZ. :D
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4713 Posts
On January 02 2014 02:45 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 02:43 keglu wrote:Aligulac results are up PvT most balanced matchup , Zerg imba PvT: 51,74% PvZ: 47,02% TvZ : 45,65% And so the laws of logic were defied once again. Except for TvZ. :D
Don't worry, with that map pool and the oracles it won't take long for PvT to go 5% or more in favor of toss, in fact if it doesn't happen I'll be extremely surprised.
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Balancing around win % is why this game gets stale so fast...
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I would like to know what it's like to play PvT from the Protoss perspective. Like, what do you Protoss players feel at the loading screen when you meet a Terran. Things like "Oh shit, it's gonna be tough", or like "It's map X, I'll try strat Y".
Because from the Terran side I have a pretty good idea of what that's like.
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On January 02 2014 02:52 Talack wrote:
Balancing around win % is why this game gets stale so fast...
I think it's rather design problem and maps. Maps are just too similiar. I am happy that we have finally more differently maps next season. I know that many many dislike the new mappool.
About design: too many opening/earlygame strategies but only few mid & lategame strategies. This is the biggest factor why the game gets stale so fast.
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On January 02 2014 02:54 ZenithM wrote:
I would like to know what it's like to play PvT from the Protoss perspective. Like, what do you Protoss players feel at the loading screen when you meet a Terran.
"Wow, it's been 2 weeks since the last one!"
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On January 02 2014 03:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 02:54 ZenithM wrote:
I would like to know what it's like to play PvT from the Protoss perspective. Like, what do you Protoss players feel at the loading screen when you meet a Terran. "Wow, it's been 2 weeks since the last one!"
That hurts 
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On January 02 2014 03:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 02:54 ZenithM wrote:
I would like to know what it's like to play PvT from the Protoss perspective. Like, what do you Protoss players feel at the loading screen when you meet a Terran. "Wow, it's been 2 weeks since the last one!"
That actually made my day.
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Weren't winrates pretty good during the BL/infestor era too?
Not trying to say that makes them irrelevant but TvP right now is similar to what TvZ was towards the end of WOL, nearly impossible to put on pressure and all you could do was a pre-hive timing attack and hope the game snowballs in your favor. Even if it creates for even winrates its the design and flow of the match-up thats the problem.
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On January 02 2014 03:29 Bagi wrote:
Weren't winrates pretty good during the BL/infestor era too?
Not trying to say that makes them irrelevant but TvP right now is similar to what TvZ was towards the end of WOL, nearly impossible to put on pressure and all you could do was a pre-hive timing attack and hope the game snowballs in your favor. Even if it creates for even winrates its the design and flow of the match-up thats the problem.
The Problem with winrates is the same as with every other statistc: Without further knowledge how the data is collected and how it was generated it is useless.
Imagine a Tournament with 100 players, 48 Protoss, 49 Zerg and 3 Terrans. The numbers say that there is no chance for Terran but if the 3 T´s are Teaja, Maru and Innovation you will most likely have 3 of them in the Ro8.
That was always the problem and thats why Terran is hard to balance. Look what innovation did with hellbats.
I think to "help" Terran on a "normal player/pro" base there has to be a solution that "buffs" without making the absolute top tier players imba.
I know it was a half parody but this remembers me of the "rise of the patchzerg" article on TL. What we need is a Terran buff for "white people" like back then with the queen buff.
It´s kinda sad that the best foreign Terran left couldn´t celebrate his dreamhack victory because it would be illigal to hand him over the champagne (talking about HeroMarine he is like 15 or so).
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United States7483 Posts
On January 02 2014 03:29 Bagi wrote:
Weren't winrates pretty good during the BL/infestor era too?
Not trying to say that makes them irrelevant but TvP right now is similar to what TvZ was towards the end of WOL, nearly impossible to put on pressure and all you could do was a pre-hive timing attack and hope the game snowballs in your favor. Even if it creates for even winrates its the design and flow of the match-up thats the problem.
They were okay near the start of BL/Infestor, but they slowly spiraled downhill from there.
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^The obvious solution is to make mech viable, and I mean really viable and not just a gimmick that can work once in a blue moon when the opponent doesn't see it coming.
Considering the balance team thought cutting the tank attack cooldown to 2.7 was too much, I'm not holding my breath. Much bigger things need to be happening to this game than what Blizzard is willing to do right now. We've been almost 2 months without WCS now and there has been zero communication from Blizzard regarding balance/design during it. I'm going to have to assume they are preoccupied with Heroes considering the reaction to its reveal was pretty lukewarm.
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We were the ones to tell them stop with overpatching.
Now it is no word no action patching attitude.
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On January 02 2014 04:06 ETisME wrote:
We were the ones to tell them stop with overpatching.
Now it is no word no action patching attitude.
and if you read through the threads, some people still act as if blizzard would overhaul the game every week...
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On January 01 2014 20:43 YyapSsap wrote:
Maps are quite an interesting idea.. but I think they aren't being used enough to really affect "balance".
E.g.
TvP, the main cannot be blinked onto other than from the frontal ramp/natural.
PvZ, it doesn't have exposed non movable areas around its main e.g. Polar night so that mutalisks can't attack at literally all angles.
TvZ, no sensor towers meaning you can't just have 2 lings spawned to take map control for a very long time or futher away thirds.
I think Day9 is a big proponent of using maps to balance while leaving the unit stats alone.
I'd like to see more variety in the ladder map pool in 2014. And by this I mean maps that enable a diversity of play. This would mean maps favouring blink play, maps favouring drop play, maps conducive to turtle-ing Mech style and so on. In my wackier thoughts, I'd even like (for example) maps with a distant third but, say, three gas geysers. Balanced maps, all the time, are boring. As to competitive play, I don't know. I'd like to think that after these maps are played on ladder they can be tweaked and added to competitive play. But, even then, maps should advantage a race or a strategy (as real life maps do). As long as the map pool does not advantage a race or a strategy over much or all of the time, I don't see the problem. SC2 will be better for it.
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On January 01 2014 20:31 ZenithM wrote:
That's all the same things we've said for years about lategame Protoss. In fact, I think lategame PvT is fine. The problem nowadays is the decidedly one-sided early-game. I can't recall the last time I've seen a somewhat aggressive build from Terran work on Protoss. On the other end, I can't list all the shit that is very threatening for a Protoss to do to a Terran in the first 8-9 minutes.
Terran not having the stronger lategame potential in the matchup (feel free to try to correct me), it would be normal if Terran had some sort of timing window where it is actually stronger than Protoss army and tech-wise, right? (the so-called asymmetrical balance Blizzard is content with). In WoL you could argue that it was the full first 10 minutes, and the matchup wasn't ridiculously Terran favored. Nowadays, the sole reason the winrates haven't gone down to 20% is the 30s-1minute window when medivacs, +1 and stim are up. That's a pretty thin window.
Edit: As for the other matchups:
TvZ seems fine to me, even if the last nerf was pretty unnecessary.
And I hope TvT isn't leaning toward full-on mech vs mech, I don't like to play it :D
I fully agree with you when in comes to TvP. The late game armies clearly favor Protoss, and with them controlling the early game in allows them to safely get to that army. Its the same problem that the queen buff introduced into WOL; the Zerg army was favored in the late game, and the queen buff allowed them to better thwart aggression and to safely transition to the late game. Thats the real problem with the matchup. Sure oracles and blink "all-ins" are annoying and strong, but its the fact that Toss can just fall back into a normal macro game if they don't work that makes them OP.
I disagree on TvZ though. The MU is no where near as broken as TvP, and I would say is still fun to play, but I think it is decidedly moving towards favoring Zerg. When there are 30+ mutas on the field, its basically gg. They are so easy to control now, and regen so fast, that its almost impossible to even kill one anymore if the Zerg is focusing solely on harassing tech and workers. Zergs have been able to build these ridiculous flocks because the wm nerf has allowed them to keep the mutas basically out of army fights, as ling/bling trades so efficiently with mmm on its own now that mutas just arent needed for anything other than mop up duty. That also means that when zerg gets enough mutas out, they can just wait for the Terran to move out and base race to win, because while the mutas are ravishing production capabilities the ling/bling can virtually neutralize the mmm on its own. Even if it doesnt completely wipe the army out, it will probably cripple it to the point that Terran cant possible hope to win a base race.
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On January 02 2014 02:43 keglu wrote:Aligulac results are up PvT most balanced matchup , Zerg imba PvT: 51,74% PvZ: 47,02% TvZ : 45,65%
Is it really ever worthwhile looking at these numbers? Blizzard, after all, have their own "adjusted" stats which they use to guide their balance decisions. Poring over these numbers often seems an exercise in irrelevance, IMO.
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On January 02 2014 03:43 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2014 03:29 Bagi wrote:
Weren't winrates pretty good during the BL/infestor era too?
Not trying to say that makes them irrelevant but TvP right now is similar to what TvZ was towards the end of WOL, nearly impossible to put on pressure and all you could do was a pre-hive timing attack and hope the game snowballs in your favor. Even if it creates for even winrates its the design and flow of the match-up thats the problem. The Problem with winrates is the same as with every other statistc: Without further knowledge how the data is collected and how it was generated it is useless. Imagine a Tournament with 100 players, 48 Protoss, 49 Zerg and 3 Terrans. The numbers say that there is no chance for Terran but if the 3 T´s are Teaja, Maru and Innovation you will most likely have 3 of them in the Ro8. That was always the problem and thats why Terran is hard to balance. Look what innovation did with hellbats. I think to "help" Terran on a "normal player/pro" base there has to be a solution that "buffs" without making the absolute top tier players imba. I know it was a half parody but this remembers me of the "rise of the patchzerg" article on TL. What we need is a Terran buff for "white people" like back then with the queen buff. It´s kinda sad that the best foreign Terran left couldn´t celebrate his dreamhack victory because it would be illigal to hand him over the champagne (talking about HeroMarine he is like 15 or so).
The problem with balancing Terran is that it is almost impossible to not buff those top tier players when buffing the race. Idk what it is, be it someway in which the race is designed (meaning a higher skill ceiling with the race) or just the pros who play it (i.e. more talented players), but it always seems that when the majority of Terran players are doing even with the other races, there are always a few top Terrans making things look so easy. And so the game always gets balanced around those few top players, and the rest of the race suffers as a result.
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EPT
