EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 792
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Marcinko
South Africa1014 Posts
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
 any other terran feeling the blizzard Nerf gun love? | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway275 Posts
On November 25 2013 23:46 Pirfiktshon wrote: I feel like the new patch just broke the game for me :/ it set me back weeks of learning new builds in every matchup including TvT because I was a Strong bio player. So I'm feeling pretty down any other terran feeling the blizzard Nerf gun love?Yeah i feel ya! Ive been low masters in all seasons of hots. but now im like... mid/top diamond.. i cant beat ppl whit 70 apm cause proxy oracle is really op + its no viable strats against zerg... and im also a bio player so tvt is hard aswell  I am actually thinking of takin a break from sc2. i dont have the motivation to learn a new race. and no matter how much better i play against some players, i lose.. terran is a dyin race. 20% in GM... NERF MUTA FFS NERF TOSS DEATHLBALL FFS Kind regards, Frustrated terran player | ||
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
Blizzard creates the stupid solution of nerfing terran because of high calibre players like Taeja who can utilize the race to its fullest potential who make the race seem overpowered. But the truth is protoss are so poorly designed in terms of skill ceiling that its incredibly difficult to truly distinguish "good" protoss players since skill for protoss is essentially how well they can utilize their spellcasters. Which is either a shot or a miss. Other than that, there is no real micro from protoss aside from blink stalkers | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:44 Nightsz wrote: Terran as a race in itself is perfectly designed, the only problem is that the other races don't have the same skill ceiling as terran. Blizzard creates the stupid solution of nerfing terran because of high calibre players like Taeja who can utilize the race to its fullest potential who make the race seem overpowered. But the truth is protoss are so poorly designed in terms of skill ceiling that its incredibly difficult to truly distinguish "good" protoss players since skill for protoss is essentially how well they can utilize their spellcasters. Which is either a shot or a miss. Other than that, there is no real micro from protoss aside from blink stalkers Or maybe you just lack the skill to distinguish good from bad players. I have no problem identifying good Protoss players: Dear, sOs, Parting was not that hard... | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:47 Big J wrote: Or maybe you just lack the skill to distinguish good from bad players. I have no problem identifying good Protoss players: Dear, sOs, Parting was not that hard... MC has won more than them. HerO, Hero and Trap have had better runs. Oz has recently elevated to higher competition and beaten Dear. Hurricane is the UWC. Rain is widely considered a more solid player, and was considered better than all of them for a long time. I could go on. You might want to overgeneralize the problem away, but Dear's two-tournament streak is the most consistency we've come to expect from Protoss players. Edit: Forgot: Naniwa is a great protoss player. (Now You have to deal with the Faniwas  ) | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:47 Big J wrote: Or maybe you just lack the skill to distinguish good from bad players. I have no problem identifying good Protoss players: Dear, sOs, Parting was not that hard... yes yes, you identified them, but what distinguishes them? (If I and Nightsz lack the skill that you have, surely you can point out what we don't see.) | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:34 MiCroLiFe wrote: Yeah i feel ya! Ive been low masters in all seasons of hots. but now im like... mid/top diamond.. i cant beat ppl whit 70 apm cause proxy oracle is really op + its no viable strats against zerg... and im also a bio player so tvt is hard aswell lol I love blatant hyperboles. With the new ladder MMR mess ups, if you're losing to 70 apm you should be in like Gold tbh. Also this is a balance DISCUSSION thread, not "join me in my whining fellow terrans". On November 26 2013 00:44 Nightsz wrote: Terran as a race in itself is perfectly designed, the only problem is that the other races don't have the same skill ceiling as terran. Blizzard creates the stupid solution of nerfing terran because of high calibre players like Taeja who can utilize the race to its fullest potential who make the race seem overpowered. But the truth is protoss are so poorly designed in terms of skill ceiling that its incredibly difficult to truly distinguish "good" protoss players since skill for protoss is essentially how well they can utilize their spellcasters. Which is either a shot or a miss. Other than that, there is no real micro from protoss aside from blink stalkers People often make the mistake of thinking the more APM needed = the harder the micro. It's not like that. Protoss probably has MORE different micro opportunities in a battle then both other races. Such, stutter step and splitting is hard and requires tons of APM, but in terms of different micro within one battle, protoss have more DIFFERENT things to do. Blink, storm, feedback, force field, guardian shield, time warp, etc.... The micro for toss is definitely there. Micro ability isn't the issue, it's never been imo The problem has always been with the design of the terran race, where the MMM is tier 1 catch-all because tier 3 is awful, but tier 3 toss is basically an MMM meat grinder. But MMM is so damn good you can't buff tier 3/introduce new tier 3 right now without making terran imbalanced. Ppl often argue terran is the best designed race, but I think it's the worst honestly. Honestly, if you can't see the different between amazing protoss army control and great/good army control, you're either not looking or you're turning a blind eye to it. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Much like a 10 gateway MSC zlot stalker rush into a DT attack into a Chargelot / Archon Timing. Thats probably one of the hardest things to stop if you get even slightly behind which is easy when you are not expecting a zlot to show up at your base so soon lol..... Edit: Terran is the highest reward with the most micro potential but even so it feels like an uphill battle everygame because of it LOL | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:59 ffadicted wrote: lol I love blatant hyperboles. With the new ladder MMR mess ups, if you're losing to 70 apm you should be in like Gold tbh. Also this is a balance DISCUSSION thread, not "join me in my whining fellow terrans". People often make the mistake of thinking the more APM needed = the harder the micro. It's not like that. Protoss probably has MORE different micro opportunities in a battle then both other races. Such, stutter step and splitting is hard and requires tons of APM, but in terms of different micro within one battle, protoss have more DIFFERENT things to do. Blink, storm, feedback, force field, guardian shield, time warp, etc.... The micro for toss is definitely there. Micro ability isn't the issue, it's never been imo The problem has always been with the design of the terran race, where the MMM is tier 1 catch-all because tier 3 is awful, but tier 3 toss is basically an MMM meat grinder. But MMM is so damn good you can't buff tier 3/introduce new tier 3 right now without making terran imbalanced. Ppl often argue terran is the best designed race, but I think it's the worst honestly. Honestly, if you can't see the different between amazing protoss army control and great/good army control, you're either not looking or you're turning a blind eye to it. No... blink is way easier than stutter step, storm is easier to cast than emp, forcefields are not even used in the late game. Essentially protoss micro is just making sure you have your army hotkeyed so that all the spellcasters can cast their spells with ease. Even at high masters level this is not hard to achieve. The good protoss are separated from the bad protoss in terms of their decision making. That's why we can point towards the recent winners Dear, Parting and sOs as the top. However, if we made everybody barcode you probably couldn't tell dear from rain or parting from oz.(not saying this is just with protoss, it's actually a problem with sc2) higher APM might not mean harder micro (although in this case I do believe it does), but it does mean harder multitasking, which makes the race harder overall. As a low masters random player I have to say that terran indeed is the best designed race. But that's just my opinion. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:54 DusTerr wrote: yes yes, you identified them, but what distinguishes them? (If I and Nightsz lack the skill that you have, surely you can point out what we don't see.) Comparing Dear to your average GSL Protoss like Avenge is the same as comparing 2011 Mvp to Supernova (at that time). Of course Supernova was a good player, but Mvp simply had more builds, his executions was crisper and he was metagaming opponents more and pushing the metagame. Just watch those topprotoss players... they have their units/buildings in time. They are better positioned. Their timing attacks deal more damage. They macro stronger behind their attacks. Their micro/multitasking is better. Their build choices are deadlier. --> it's the same as with "better Terran" or "better Zerg" players. On November 26 2013 01:52 Ghanburighan wrote: MC has won more than them. HerO, Hero and Trap have had better runs. Oz has recently elevated to higher competition and beaten Dear. Hurricane is the UWC. Rain is widely considered a more solid player, and was considered better than all of them for a long time. I could go on. You might want to overgeneralize the problem away, but Dear's two-tournament streak is the most consistency we've come to expect from Protoss players. Edit: Forgot: Naniwa is a great protoss player. (Now You have to deal with the Faniwas )Yeah, and Mvp has won more than any Terran that is currently good, not sure what you want to say with that "MC was better at some time". Not sure if that HerO, Hero, Trap, Oz stuff is true to begin with, but whatever: There's a bunch of Terran players who also had great runs somewhen this year. Yoda, Flash, Mvp, MMA. Not one of them has been consistently good however. Yeah, Rain was considered better than other Protoss'. And he has done very well in the last half year. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Rain_(Korean_Protoss)/Results I dont' see how you can call sOs inconsistent this year (and Dear more consistent): sOs: Ro4 WCS Korea Season 1 2nd WCS Finals 1 Ro32 WCS Korea Season 2 Ro16 WCS Korea Season 3 1st WCS Blizzcon Finals Also: 4th place in the proleague statistics (2nd if you go by winrate). And that without being the undisputed Ace of his Team (Hello Soulkey), while the players around him (Flash, INnoVation, Rain, JangBi, Hydra) all were sent out more. I don't see what you want. You put it as if players that won multiple tournaments and and/or are consistently in the top places of the Premier Tournaments that they attend are not the best of their race currently and could be exchanged with some others easily. I don't think so. I don't think duckdeok is as good as Rain or Trap could easily achieve what Dear has done. But yes, sometimes some players overtake others. Happens within every race. Maru is the best Korean Terran currently. Polt has come back with 3championships this year, after quite a bad 2012. Bomber has suddenly overcome his curse. --> INnoVation has fallen too. So time to go on a rampage about inconsistent Terrans? | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 26 2013 02:09 fighter2_40 wrote: No... blink is way easier than stutter step, storm is easier to cast than emp, forcefields are not even used in the late game. Essentially protoss micro is just making sure you have your army hotkeyed so that all the spellcasters can cast their spells with ease. Even at high masters level this is not hard to achieve. The good protoss are separated from the bad protoss in terms of their decision making. That's why we can point towards the recent winners Dear, Parting and sOs as the top. However, if we made everybody barcode you probably couldn't tell dear from rain or parting from oz.(not saying this is just with protoss, it's actually a problem with sc2) higher APM might not mean harder micro (although in this case I do believe it does), but it does mean harder multitasking, which makes the race harder overall. As a low masters random player I have to say that terran indeed is the best designed race. But that's just my opinion. I wasn't trying to say protoss micro is harder, just saying that there's a lot of micro protoss has to do, and more different micro than the other two races. I'm going to disagree with your take on toss micro tbh. And you also have to take other things into account when speaking of micro, sure, terran needs to stutter step, but they also have queue on production where toss has to look away from army to warp in, but on the flipside warp in-s come in faster from a maxed army then terran production, etc etc... it's not as black and white as "stutter step needs more clicking so this race has more multi task". It really depends entirely one what you're doing as a player. I also disagree with terran being the best designed race. When your tier 3 is essentially NEVER used, you can't really argue that a race is well designed. Terran is well designed in terms of early/mid game aggression and harrassment, but I just don't see it in terms of early->mid->late game flow at all. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12584 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:59 ffadicted wrote: lol I love blatant hyperboles. With the new ladder MMR mess ups, if you're losing to 70 apm you should be in like Gold tbh. Also this is a balance DISCUSSION thread, not "join me in my whining fellow terrans". Ppl often argue terran is the best designed race, but I think it's the worst honestly. It's not so much "best" or "worst", it's just a different approach. What happens is their design doesn't interact well. Terran design works fine in a vacuum, as you can see, TvT being a really well liked match-up. If your perspective is terran, obv terran is the well designed race, since that's what you like to play. If your perspective is non-terran, the opposite is true just as obv. This being TL, of course you hear the terran version more often. | ||
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Slydie
2015 Posts
I think terran is the far best designed race, it is just that the other races have badly designed and OP counters available: neuro, yank, blinding cloud, feedback, op-nexus, charge, muta regen, while the terran counters to those units/spells are not effective enough... Maybe a buff to ghosts could solve some problems? | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
Problem with mutas - let's create ultimate counter in phoneix Problem with broodlors - let's create ultimate counter in tempest Problem with early game defense - give them good againts everything easy ot get early game defence Now other races are just heavily limited in what they can do againts Protoss. I expect some balance changes soon since i think P will be above 50% in both matchups in tournamnets in november( which will make them strongest race in 4 of 5 of last months) + on ladder Protoss distribution goes 30->33>36->42 from platinum->gm | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 26 2013 03:52 keglu wrote: One problem with Protoss it's that they receieved easy way out of their problems Problem with mutas - let's create ultimate counter in phoneix Problem with broodlors - let's create ultimate counter in tempest Problem with early game defense - give them good againts everything easy ot get early game defence Now other races are just heavily limited in what they can do againts Protoss. The simplicity of your solutions is quite funny. It doesn't work like that sorry. Anybody can do that Problem with zealots - let's create ultimate counter hellbat! Problem with colossus - let's create ultimate counter viking! Problem with HTs - let's create ultimate counter ghost! Problem with early game defense - give them free siege research and bunker good against everything easy to get early game defense! Cmon lol We did have recent balance changes. Protoss got buffed. | ||
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stratmatt
United States913 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On November 26 2013 03:55 ffadicted wrote: The simplicity of your solutions is quite funny. It doesn't work like that sorry. Anybody can do that Problem with zealots - let's create ultimate counter hellbat! Problem with colossus - let's create ultimate counter viking! Problem with HTs - let's create ultimate counter ghost! Problem with early game defense - give them free siege research and bunker good against everything easy to get early game defense! Cmon lol We did have recent balance changes. Protoss got buffed. What's the counter of ghosts already ? Oh, right... HTs. Anyway, I really like players who thinks "you have siege tanks to defend allin (blink). Like in their minds we HAVE to open factory. It's not like it's the best hardcounter to Blink, it is not. + When you scout some shit like that it's already too late to make a factory for tank production, don't forget, we can't warp or chrono units. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On November 26 2013 03:52 keglu wrote: One problem with Protoss it's that they receieved easy way out of their problems Problem with mutas - let's create ultimate counter in phoneix Problem with broodlors - let's create ultimate counter in tempest Problem with early game defense - give them good againts everything easy ot get early game defence Now other races are just heavily limited in what they can do againts Protoss. I expect some balance changes soon since i think P will be above 50% in both matchups in tournamnets in november( which will make them strongest race in 4 of 5 of last months) + on ladder Protoss distribution goes 30->33>36->42 from platinum->gm Those don't actually "counter" those units... Once mutalisks reach critical mass you need stalkers (because they're cheap) and Templars (aoe) since the Phoenix will die too quickly to worm bounce and can't keep up with Zerg production. Brood lord Transitions hits timings where they have a swathe of corruptors stopping Protoss from going air and suddenly shifting to brood lords before tempest production gets going. Etc... Not saying that tempests and Phoenix aren't good vs those units, it's just that saying A counters B is a dishonest way of analyzing the game. | ||
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