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WM wasn't nerfed because of balance.... and tanks are still trash on large open maps. 3 base tank allins ftw on maps like yeonsu, screw macro games from now on.
True story I don't understand why they nerf terran because they don't like how its played. Personally I think it was one of the most exciting and Nail biting games to watch ( LIke Polt vs Byul on derelict watcher Season 3 NA WCS) I think we will find ourselves hard pressed to find games like that because of what direction they want this to go in which is Tank / Mech. This style is usually a turtle style that encourages long drawn out games with little action and a slower dynamic of a match up overall ....
Which my games have been overall when I go Mine Tank is my push happens about 1-2 minutes slower if I go the 3cc style now I have adopted into earlier pushes and map control and have taken tanks completely out of the equation and have had more success LOL kinda funny how that works haha
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On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts.
I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba.
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On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba.
that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion?
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On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion? TvZ winrates actually INCREASED the month following the Queen buff. Time is needed for stabilization after any patch.
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On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion?
Well if you really want to know. Lets wait after red-bull and dreamhack. I doubt this is a new "queen patch". There is just no evidence that really holds water yet. If you disagree please show me the evidence.
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On November 23 2013 00:39 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion? TvZ winrates actually INCREASED the month following the Queen buff. Time is needed for stabilization after any patch.
What needs to stabilize, exactly? The queen patch took time because a) zergs needed to learn builds with queen openers (the only one on the market was by that Spanish zerg, I forget his name, Spanishiwa or something?) b) terrans needed to learn how to play against those builds.
In this case, zergs don't need to adapt to anything except for winning more engagements. Terrans only have the same builds they had before. Hoping that winrates stabilize is basically hoping that terrans can come up with viable builds, regardless of the fact that these builds have been tested before and have big glaring holes in them that were not patched up.
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What needs to stabilize, exactly? The queen patch took time because a) zergs needed to learn builds with queen openers (the only one on the market was by that Spanish zerg, I forget his name, Spanishiwa or something?) b) terrans needed to learn how to play against those builds.
In this case, zergs don't need to adapt to anything except for winning more engagements. Terrans only have the same builds they had before. Hoping that winrates stabilize is basically hoping that terrans can come up with viable builds, regardless of the fact that these builds have been tested before and have big glaring holes in them that were not patched up.
Exactly its not like the buff tank was ground breaking it actually doesn't allow pushes to happen faster just slower which is a major thing in TvZ. The slower the push the more time zerg has to mass and tech end of WOL will show you what happens when zerg has time..... The way I have adjusted my play is earlier attack timings on 2 bases which forces zerg to react and stifle their Drone production by forcing units.
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On November 22 2013 23:16 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 22:10 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 21:56 PanzerElite wrote:On November 22 2013 21:49 Vanadiel wrote:On November 22 2013 21:00 Keeemy wrote:
Yeah, mutas should be nerfed a bit. What are some good changes people would suggest? Less hp, regen slower, slower overall, less dps, increase cost...? Let's give top terran some time to figure it out before we can say anything about balance, it tooks 9 month to see the WM nerfed, so I guess we should wait the same amount of time before considering a nerf to mutalisk. WM wasn't nerfed because of balance.... and tanks are still trash on large open maps. 3 base tank allins ftw on maps like yeonsu, screw macro games from now on. Less mad. More skill. Mad? Those are just facts and zergs tend do die easily on small maps when I copy Bomber's wol marine tank builds. You max before 14 minutes and most of them get rolled by sheer production. 16 marines and 3 tanks per cycle ftw. Plz less mad more skill, rolf. Is that all you got to say?
Zergs are building army nowadays at 12-15 min instead of rushing for broodlords. Of course the bomber build which is optimized for killing that fast hive infestor broodlord build doesn't work anymore.
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Guys, pls stop "bashing" the patch that actually saved eSports.. 
I was really pissed before the Queen buff how games went.. I mean - was it really annoying to see how Zergs suffered to the "gayest" possible builds again and again and having a 5-minute pro-game AT MAX, and MAYBE survive by some "miracle" to live another day to be completely destroyed once T2 units started to accompany Bio..
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Here's where the real problem is though:
Terran as a race have too much "special occasion" units.. The only unit that they have that is multi-use and multi-race use is the Marine.. And maybe somewhat a bit the Marauder (but w.e. - that's like Marines again, right ??), and then maybe the Thor..
EVERYTHING ELSE is a specialized unit and doesn't have a versatile use.. EVERYTHING ELSE is designed either vs Zerg or vs Protoss and even OVEREFFECTIVE vs one or the other, but not DECENT vs both.. To make matters even worse (this might as well be an issue #2 of the game design IMO) is that --> ALL THE BUY TIME Terran mechanics is in a very high-percentage of time a GAME-ENDER (or at least the next 5 minutes in the game GAME-DEFINER) mechanic as well..
That's where the game-design is flawed - the Terran race overall.. That's why we see Marines all the damn time, and that's why Blizz wants to fix mech in the first place.. For us all to stop seeing only Marines again and again the whole time.. Not just for the sake of mech as if - woulnd't it be cool for Terrans to be able to do what they already did in BW - the "nostalgia thing", but rather there's even a higher and more needed goal --> to increase the possible versatility within the game..
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And EVEN THE VERY NON-MARINE few units that were fairly versatile in BW were replaced with either - more specialized ones, or more expensive and harder to produce ones
Take the Banshee for example - Blizz basically traded a fairly (if not the most other than the Marine) versatile unit in the BW game - i.e. - Wraith to something that does OMG SHIT OWNAGE harass and Cloak bullsh*t but does have ABSOLUTELY NONE usage once Mutalisks (or say like on more broader sentence - opponent air troops) are out..
Thor is one more example, though it's a fairly interesting idea to mix in both units - one that was versatile and one that was veeery specialized into one new unit (talking about the Goliath and the Valkyrie here).. Felt as if they "created" a block for the Zerg to make Mutas, (or at least the Valkyries, if not the Goliaths) did.. The problem that occured by doing that change is mobility though - Thor can't move as fast as Valkyrie did to defend the guys "down below", so now the mech anti-air defence is no longer in use, or at least it's either not versatile (in terms easy to produce) or very slow (or at least lagging behind somewhat)..
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Now - there's that little thing in HotS called the Widow-Mine that does fairly well, or at least has the potential to.. But problem is that Blizz FAILED AGAIN by doing the possibly most-potent 2nd versatile unit in the Terran army other than Marine to be AGAIN too damn specialized..
Instead of making the WM being the new "positional versatile/buy time unit", they made it the ANTI-ZERG Marine supporter, and therefore the mech TvP and the ZvT engagement/struggle problems/issues began..
Now at this very moment - ALL that Blizz needs to do is to make the WM not being a specialized anti-Zerg unit but make it more versatile.. It's also a fairly cheap unit to produce, almost like the Marine 2.0, which is a good thing, but it just needs more versatitly - i.e. - being potentially as potent vs Protoss as vs Zerg already is.. Or at least that's a very STEP 1 to being in a very happy place
The WM nerf was needed, no doubts there, but the unit needs to be buffed in other ways than being a one-blob-splash vs Zerg so it would be useful in more styles of gameplay.. Almost like as if it was the "stepping stone" unit, but it just didn't end up being that.. And there are TONS OF WAYS to fix that, only the problem is that Blizz didn't even bother to make that happen.. They released the WM with the same design-flaws it had from the get-go and from the day1 of release - the unit being a specialized "Zerg killer" of some kind..
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HERE'S a fairly safe to say that it's a relatively true statement though:
--> The META will be completely fixed (or at least feel like that's the case) when Terran gets a versatile unit from all the production structure types.. The "sweet spot" though is make Terran have at least one versatile unit out from 2 of the 3 production building types..
At this point I really don't care if it's a Starport or a Factory unit, as long as there's anything in there that can be semi/massively produced and be versatile and not just being a "Marine-support" - I'm TOTALLY OK with it..
So yah - that's the problem there is and that needs to be fixed
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Here's a short reference to the BW recipe of success though:
BW had COMPLETELY different approach of the issue.. The two TvX matchups were THAT MUCH DIFFERENT that almost none of the units were "mutual" (except the Wraith or the Marine for example, which were the two versatile Terran units in BW.. Science-vessel wasn't a versatile unit, but rather a weird-mixed UNION with one extremely good vs Zerg ability and one extremely good vs Protoss abilitiy.. OK, it had 1 ability that was a fairly versatile and all-situation good though (the D-Matrix)..
Now - Blizz KINDA goes from THAT BW starting point, but with making the feel of having a bit more "versatility" (to encourage the a bit more "freedom to explore" spirit), but the problem is that they ended in none of the working ends.. They neither ended up in the "all-productions being able to produce a fairly easy to mass decent/versatile unit", nor the other extreme (the half & half BW working recipe), the "one production specialized for one matchup and the other one for the other" spot..
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Therefore the conclusion:
--> Either SPECIALIZE HALF of the units/abilities that Terran has into strictly only vs Zerg or only vs Protoss working but never both (the good ol' BW recipe), and therefore end up in 2 completely different unit/ability usages that half of the units available you never make vs a certain race (depending on the matchup), OR
--> Make at least ONE versatile unit out of at least TWO production facilities and end up in a place where unit transitions will feel and will work more "smoothly"..
Or at least try the #2 issue that I stated about briefly above.. Make the "buy-time" mechanics less destructive and more "buy-time" based.. At least start with that and see how it ends up.. Though I think that the issue #1 is far more important ATM
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The easier approach to fix the issue though lies in the increase versatility IMO
I think that HotS as a game is far more to the "able to all versatile" end, all they need is to make Banshee being able to defend itself from air but reduce either it's DPS vs ground or at least remove the cloak, or (which is far more easy doable ATM) make the WM be fairly good unit vs Protoss as well and being a fairly versatile unit and not just a "big-cd-big-blob" that works vs Zerg only..
A small sidenote though --> ofc. - the BC is a veeeeeeeeeery versatile unit, don't get me wrong, but the problem is that #1 - it is too expensive and it's a highest-tier unit.. and #2 - Protoss (and even Zerg) has far too effective abilities/mechanics to deal with them.. So having that in mind - by saying VERSATILE I also think of FAIRLY EASY TO MASS as well..
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Additionally here's one more thing that Terran differs from the other 2 races (mentioned a bit about it - the #2 issue above) but unfortunately "breaks" (or at least the potential is there to break) the game
IDK if completely true or not, but feel like it is, and IMO it really makes sence TBH -
--> TERRAN has NONE of the "buy-time" units that aren't a game-ender in the same time as well.. BOTH the Bio-drops and the Banshees aren't just a "time-buy" unit/mechanic, but a potential (if not veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery often) a game-ender that ends it all RIGHT THEN AND THERE as well..
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To summarize - to me seems like ALL the game-design level flawsand game-flow issues in HotS (except the Swarm-Host late-game PvZ, but that's a different matter..) lie on the Terran soil ATM..
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So yah - guys, pls stop "bashing" the patch that actually saved eSports, if nothing it actually made it possible to see longer TvZ (or even more precisely said - being able to have longer ZvT games) that we all love & play, or at least - watch..
I personally don't wanna see the "stone-age" games where 2 rax vs 2-spines blindly built games TBH.. And really doubt that anyone would..
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On November 23 2013 02:22 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 23:16 PanzerElite wrote:On November 22 2013 22:10 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 21:56 PanzerElite wrote:On November 22 2013 21:49 Vanadiel wrote:On November 22 2013 21:00 Keeemy wrote:
Yeah, mutas should be nerfed a bit. What are some good changes people would suggest? Less hp, regen slower, slower overall, less dps, increase cost...? Let's give top terran some time to figure it out before we can say anything about balance, it tooks 9 month to see the WM nerfed, so I guess we should wait the same amount of time before considering a nerf to mutalisk. WM wasn't nerfed because of balance.... and tanks are still trash on large open maps. 3 base tank allins ftw on maps like yeonsu, screw macro games from now on. Less mad. More skill. Mad? Those are just facts and zergs tend do die easily on small maps when I copy Bomber's wol marine tank builds. You max before 14 minutes and most of them get rolled by sheer production. 16 marines and 3 tanks per cycle ftw. Plz less mad more skill, rolf. Is that all you got to say? Zergs are building army nowadays at 12-15 min instead of rushing for broodlords. Of course the bomber build which is optimized for killing that fast hive infestor broodlord build doesn't work anymore.
Actually it still works wonders just like you can pull off almost every half-assed strat including mech since master isn't pro lvl. Yes I know it was designed as a pre hive timing, but still it's quite ok on smaller maps especially on yeonsu. Most zergs won't even have that much supply when you commence your assault, because sometimes players are so greedy by the time you have 200/200 they just hover around 130-50 supply.
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On November 23 2013 00:39 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion? TvZ winrates actually INCREASED the month following the Queen buff. Time is needed for stabilization after any patch.
Nope.
From 51,15% to 45,39% from Apeir to May 2012.
http://aligulac.com/reports/
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@VArsovskiSC I don't think you played Zerg very much prior to the queen patch. Long games happened all the time. Some of the best ZvT games of all time were played with range 3 queens. There was no glaring imbalance that the queen patch fixed. By that time zergs had figured out defending 2 Rax pressure and most of the other 2 base builds. Queen patch allowed them to push the creep out and defend with less. Now I like the queen patch and don't want it to go away but lets not mischaracterize how sc2 was before the infamous patch. I find it interesting how in hots zergs are going for roaches or faster speedlings against Terran which reminds me a lot of how zergs played back before the queen patch. Although we have nicer creep spread too.
Also, if you are a Zerg and are getting two raxed you would know before your hatch finishes. The spines aren't blind.
Actually it still works wonders just like you can pull off almost every half-assed strat including mech since master isn't pro lvl. Yes I know it was designed as a pre hive timing, but still it's quite ok on smaller maps especially on yeonsu. Most zergs won't even have that much supply when you commence your assault, because sometimes players are so greedy by the time you have 200/200 they just hover around 130-50 supply.
Yeah I misread what you actually said.
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On November 23 2013 03:14 MstrJinbo wrote:@VArsovskiSC I don't think you played Zerg very much prior to the queen patch. Long games happened all the time. Some of the best ZvT games of all time were played with range 3 queens. There was no glaring imbalance that the queen patch fixed. By that time zergs had figured out defending 2 Rax pressure and most of the other 2 base builds. Queen patch allowed them to push the creep out and defend with less. Now I like the queen patch and don't want it to go away but lets not mischaracterize how sc2 was before the infamous patch. I find it interesting how in hots zergs are going for roaches or faster speedlings against Terran which reminds me a lot of how zergs played back before the queen patch. Although we have nicer creep spread too. Also, if you are a Zerg and are getting two raxed you would know before your hatch finishes. The spines aren't blind. Show nested quote +Actually it still works wonders just like you can pull off almost every half-assed strat including mech since master isn't pro lvl. Yes I know it was designed as a pre hive timing, but still it's quite ok on smaller maps especially on yeonsu. Most zergs won't even have that much supply when you commence your assault, because sometimes players are so greedy by the time you have 200/200 they just hover around 130-50 supply. Yeah I misread what you actually said.
Hmmmmmmm, OK.. I admit, didn't play WoL, but only watched.. Got (and play) only HotS
Still - what do you think about the other part of the post:
The 2 issues I identified in the Terran: the not having a 2nd versatile unit and not having a buy-time mechanic that isn't destructive in the same time as well ??
// I know I got a little too long on those though..
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On November 23 2013 03:10 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 00:39 RampancyTW wrote:On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion? TvZ winrates actually INCREASED the month following the Queen buff. Time is needed for stabilization after any patch. Nope. From 51,15% to 45,39% from Apeir to May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/
April was the ghost nerf patch... Queen buff was later
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On November 23 2013 03:23 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:14 MstrJinbo wrote:@VArsovskiSC I don't think you played Zerg very much prior to the queen patch. Long games happened all the time. Some of the best ZvT games of all time were played with range 3 queens. There was no glaring imbalance that the queen patch fixed. By that time zergs had figured out defending 2 Rax pressure and most of the other 2 base builds. Queen patch allowed them to push the creep out and defend with less. Now I like the queen patch and don't want it to go away but lets not mischaracterize how sc2 was before the infamous patch. I find it interesting how in hots zergs are going for roaches or faster speedlings against Terran which reminds me a lot of how zergs played back before the queen patch. Although we have nicer creep spread too. Also, if you are a Zerg and are getting two raxed you would know before your hatch finishes. The spines aren't blind. Actually it still works wonders just like you can pull off almost every half-assed strat including mech since master isn't pro lvl. Yes I know it was designed as a pre hive timing, but still it's quite ok on smaller maps especially on yeonsu. Most zergs won't even have that much supply when you commence your assault, because sometimes players are so greedy by the time you have 200/200 they just hover around 130-50 supply. Yeah I misread what you actually said. Hmmmmmmm, OK.. I admit, didn't play WoL, but only watched.. Got (and play) only HotS Still - what do you think about the other part of the post: The 2 issues I identified in the Terran: the not having a 2nd versatile unit and not having a buy-time mechanic that isn't destructive in the same time as well ?? // I know I got a little too long on those though..
If a time buying maneuver wasn't destructive then it wouldn't buy time. A dozen Zerglings can run into your mineral line when your wall is down can cause you to lose the game just as easily as a drop or banshee. An oracle that isn't dealt with can do the same.
The vast majority of SC2 units are super versatile. There are very few cases when opening with a banshee is bad unless you fly it into a mine or spore crawler because it has more purposes than just killing workers. Ultralisks are really versatile as are zealots and zerglings too. It's more the exception that a unit is not used for a given matchup rather than a rule.
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On November 23 2013 03:26 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:10 keglu wrote:On November 23 2013 00:39 RampancyTW wrote:On November 23 2013 00:35 TeeTS wrote:On November 22 2013 23:47 RaFox17 wrote:On November 22 2013 23:34 Ghanburighan wrote:
RaFox17 is just a troll. He hasn't made a constructive post since the patch notes came out. It's just a combo of "umad" and "more gg, more skill" trolling. Ignoring him means that we don't get spammed with useless posts. I just can´t understand how you can definitely say that the patch has caused some imbalance when it has been out only so little time? I think we should give it more time. Thats what many terranes used when terran was accused of being imba. that´s what zergs were telling us after the queen buff. Just give it more time. 10months were not enough last time, how many months should we wait this time around in your opinion? TvZ winrates actually INCREASED the month following the Queen buff. Time is needed for stabilization after any patch. Nope. From 51,15% to 45,39% from Apeir to May 2012. http://aligulac.com/reports/ April was the ghost nerf patch... Queen buff was later
Ghost february, queen 9th of May.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4487503
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5393885
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-- sorry, mistake --
@mstrJinbo, thx
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Tvz
creep is imbalanced and boring
What can a terran do when he fights on creep? All micro potential gets even smaller. Alot smaller.
Building a raven, if it was "viable", sure. Could be fun actually but the way the raven is build. He is just useless against lings/banelings/muta. In a "real" game, terran needs to spend scans to clear creeps.
No spell such as irradiate.
Nothing effective at all against mutas in this game.
I dont like tvz anymore.
It was imbalannced prepatch in favor of terran, now its favor of zerg.
So with favor of zerg, lets add the creep to that race and voila, bigger advantage without doing anything.
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If you think TvZ is imbalanced what do you think about TvP lol
TvP is the most ridiculous matchup these days, unbelievable hard.
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On November 23 2013 03:14 MstrJinbo wrote:@VArsovskiSC I don't think you played Zerg very much prior to the queen patch. Long games happened all the time. Some of the best ZvT games of all time were played with range 3 queens. There was no glaring imbalance that the queen patch fixed. By that time zergs had figured out defending 2 Rax pressure and most of the other 2 base builds. Queen patch allowed them to push the creep out and defend with less. Now I like the queen patch and don't want it to go away but lets not mischaracterize how sc2 was before the infamous patch. I find it interesting how in hots zergs are going for roaches or faster speedlings against Terran which reminds me a lot of how zergs played back before the queen patch. Although we have nicer creep spread too. Also, if you are a Zerg and are getting two raxed you would know before your hatch finishes. The spines aren't blind. Show nested quote +Actually it still works wonders just like you can pull off almost every half-assed strat including mech since master isn't pro lvl. Yes I know it was designed as a pre hive timing, but still it's quite ok on smaller maps especially on yeonsu. Most zergs won't even have that much supply when you commence your assault, because sometimes players are so greedy by the time you have 200/200 they just hover around 130-50 supply. Yeah I misread what you actually said.
the patch was not to fix 2 rax pressure. The bunker contain was only patched when hots "fixed" ramp blocked with bunkers/pylons cannon
Pre-queen patch (also overlord speed) in ZvT there were:
2 port banshee
cloak banshee
mass hellion runby
blueflame hellion runby
marauder hellion all in
a tonnes of games were won by roach ling baneling all in vs terran different all ins/third up earlier than zergs'
Not to mention how some games were instantly over because while terran was poking with hellions, they slip through into the drone line and gain a massive worker lead with a faster 3rd landed.
Then there are games where basically it was a 15 mins death animation including a Nestea game where he didn't scout the 2 port banshee due to scout got denied and it was over once there were 4 banshees.
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EPT
