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On August 27 2013 03:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. This post deserves a blue bar. Old but still relevant fact: Forcing a Terran to burn scans costs 270 minerals, half a CC is lost each time you force a T to scan. A burrowed baneling or two detonations along a typical AI a-move path will make any T paranoid. Edit: Content.
In theory its good. But when terran starts 11:00 pressure and continues zergs need all forces to stay alive. Killing addons and production buildings, baneling carpet bombs are all possible, but in diamond league I guess.
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On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere  Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example).
Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply.
Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 03:57 Chillypill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example). Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply. Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not.
I know about saccing scvs. I forgot to include it as exception, when terrans have enough orbitals to simply get rid of most of scvs. Also, banking stuff as terran is never as good as zerg, cause queue mechanics. And yes, you can add production, and what? Also last time i checked, terran trades units before maxing out with those parade pushes. I shall repeat it again: mule in mid game is nothing else than ability to get 270 minerals faster.
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On August 27 2013 04:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:57 Chillypill wrote:On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example). Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply. Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not. I know about saccing scvs. I forgot to include it as exception, when terrans have enough orbitals to simply get rid of most of scvs. Also, banking stuff as terran is never as good as zerg, cause queue mechanics. And yes, you can add production, and what? Also last time i checked, terran trades units before maxing out with those parade pushes. I shall repeat it again: mule in mid game is nothing else than ability to get 270 minerals faster.
It's nothing other than the ability to get minerals faster, but that's still a very important mechanic to have. Stating what a mule does doesn't make it any less important.
Mules can be used as a consistent source of income, which defines your production capacity, and has nothing to do with banking resources.
In early game, mules are a big economic boon without the risk of an extra expansion. In late game, it's 50 supply you don't need to spend on workers in order to continue mining, plus the ability to focus all your mining efforts on one base.
That is, in the phase of the game where your resources are limited by your base count, another race needs to get 3 expansions and mine from them to get the same mineral benefit as Terran getting 1 expansion.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 04:39 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 04:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:57 Chillypill wrote:On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example). Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply. Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not. I know about saccing scvs. I forgot to include it as exception, when terrans have enough orbitals to simply get rid of most of scvs. Also, banking stuff as terran is never as good as zerg, cause queue mechanics. And yes, you can add production, and what? Also last time i checked, terran trades units before maxing out with those parade pushes. I shall repeat it again: mule in mid game is nothing else than ability to get 270 minerals faster. It's nothing other than the ability to get minerals faster, but that's still a very important mechanic to have. Stating what a mule does doesn't make it any less important. Mules can be used as a consistent source of income, which defines your production capacity, and has nothing to do with banking resources. In early game, mules are a big economic boon without the risk of an extra expansion. In late game, it's 50 supply you don't need to spend on workers in order to continue mining, plus the ability to focus all your mining efforts on one base. That is, in the phase of the game where your resources are limited by your base count, another race needs to get 3 expansions and mine from them to get the same mineral benefit as Terran getting 1 expansion.
Yes, yet for some reason it is hard to see active usage of mules in mid game TvZ, should i ask why?
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On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
Also, this game has the genius invention of abilities that allow a player to say "That position there? That really, really good one? Click, click, click. Damn, you positioned yourself badly. Guess I win now" which is beyond retarded.
The Sentries in First vs. Jaedong should've been dead meat. Instead the lings died. The story of this game.
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On August 26 2013 17:05 RJ231 wrote:
I'm not a pro player but I've been playing blizzard RTS for around 16-17 years and have always been pretty consistently in the top of the ladder rankings. I dunno about formatting my post correctly but there's a couple things I've observed playing HoTS for a couple months now as a zerg player.
ZvT - this match up feels very difficult as a zerg player, the new widow mine unit feels like it offers far too much power for the amount of effort it takes to handle the unit. Often times it's quite easy to lose the game to a single mine shot that will devastate an entire pack of lings or banes. The part I feel is unfair is that this happens automatically from a unit that's hidden unless you bring detection out and scan the area, even then the mines have pretty decent range and the rest of the zerg army moves too quickly compared to the speed of an overseer so you often come out behind when engaging widow mines as a rule. The fact they cost 75/25 is also quite difficult to accept considering their investment is negligible compared to the profit a single shot can give. As a zerg player it feels like terran has a unit that gets to burrow and shoot out banelings - repeatedly, without any micro needed beyond simply burrowing it in the first place. The mine isn't really the core of the problem though, it comes down to mid-late game when terran is able to keep presenting wave after wave of highly efficient units with very little investment in terms of macro, simply hotkeying all your barracks to a single hotkey and pressing a single key will train 15-20 units at once, on top of this terran can queue up additional waves of units past the first so there's little punishing them for "missing" a production cycle past the first. This problem is also seen with the mule mechanic, terran can expand with impunity often late game because of their ability to simply drop multiple mules at once and recoup any loses they might experience by having the expansion killed even if it is killed almost immediately after. The issue is that there's really nothing to punish terran players for not using command center energy in the mid-late game. On top of all of this is the issue that terran doesn't need gas to be effective vs zerg, often times you'll see top pros in the mid-late game floating 1000+ gas simply because they don't need it which compounds the issue of muling since all you really need to do late game as terran is land a fourth base and use all your orbital command energy on mules and you've put yourself right back into the game even if you're behind and even if the zerg immediately reacts you've already recouped your loses due to how quickly 8-12 mules can mine at once. All of these things together make it extremely difficult to keep up with a terran late game as a zerg player since all of their actions are much more efficient than yours, couple that with their units being more efficient in general and you've got a recipe for a matchup that feels like an uphill climb.
Suggestions:
-Widow mine price increase - this unit is incredibly powerful vs zerg and only costs 75/25 which feels far too cheap for it's power level and required adjustments in game play.
-Increase the gas cost of 3/3 for bio units, this upgrade often just ends games and terran really have no reason to not get it as the rest of their army is relatively gas cheap. This would also help slightly with the whole gas stockpiling you see later on from terrans.
-Mule cooldown timer, this would still allow terrans to drop many mules at a location but it would force them to spend more effort to do so.
- Overseer speed increase, often these lag behind your forces and you take mine shots - if the zerg is prepared to try and handle a strategy by getting detection it would be reasonable to make the detection efficient.
- Infestation pit no longer required to upgrade to Hive - zerg need to have upgrades to stay relevant vs terran late game but there's often no window of opportunity to upgrade to Hive in an even match. You see many pro zergs die once terran hits 3/3 simply because they're still on 2/2 and with the constant pressure there's really no opportunity to expend the resources to get to hive and get all these upgrades.
I liked this post. Seeing one of those suggestions explored would be pretty cool. I'd like to see gas increases somewhere (Zerg gas decreases would probably hurt ZvP), just because the low dependence on gas + terran's ability to boost their mineral harvests lead to an economy that really isn't dependent on base/map control. I think this increases terran's ability to be aggressive, and a bunch of other things. And all the "terrans use minerals zerg use gas!" talk was pretty lol. But it's not as far off balance as we like to say, jaedong just took a jaedump on the world stage  .
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On August 27 2013 04:45 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 04:39 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 04:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:57 Chillypill wrote:On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example). Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply. Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not. I know about saccing scvs. I forgot to include it as exception, when terrans have enough orbitals to simply get rid of most of scvs. Also, banking stuff as terran is never as good as zerg, cause queue mechanics. And yes, you can add production, and what? Also last time i checked, terran trades units before maxing out with those parade pushes. I shall repeat it again: mule in mid game is nothing else than ability to get 270 minerals faster. It's nothing other than the ability to get minerals faster, but that's still a very important mechanic to have. Stating what a mule does doesn't make it any less important. Mules can be used as a consistent source of income, which defines your production capacity, and has nothing to do with banking resources. In early game, mules are a big economic boon without the risk of an extra expansion. In late game, it's 50 supply you don't need to spend on workers in order to continue mining, plus the ability to focus all your mining efforts on one base. That is, in the phase of the game where your resources are limited by your base count, another race needs to get 3 expansions and mine from them to get the same mineral benefit as Terran getting 1 expansion. Yes, yet for some reason it is hard to see active usage of mules in mid game TvZ, should i ask why?
In the mid-game, scans become more valuable. Terrans have gotten used to storing some energy on OCs, delaying mules, preparing for a scan to save their life. Or actively scanning to see a tech choice.
It's not that the mules become less useful, it's that the scans become more useful. Also, if you're fighting for an expansion, you're saving your energy for that.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 05:17 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 04:45 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 04:39 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 04:21 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:57 Chillypill wrote:On August 27 2013 03:31 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere Discussion here will most of time look like this. Terrans suggest something. Some random biased zerg will counter it. And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages. EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example). Getting minerals faster is very strong. Its like expanding earlier. Also yes terrans DO mule after 3baser, useally in lategame they will sac alot af SCV's and have alot of mules mining instead, effectively giving them around 50 extra army supply. Your right that in the midgame terrans arent inclined to mule as much before they have taken a 4th because of scanning and know what your opponent is doing is so strong. However you arent limited by your production, the bigger economy you have the more production you should get. Also getting maxed faster and banking means you can start trading units when you have minerals to replace your army and your opponent does not. I know about saccing scvs. I forgot to include it as exception, when terrans have enough orbitals to simply get rid of most of scvs. Also, banking stuff as terran is never as good as zerg, cause queue mechanics. And yes, you can add production, and what? Also last time i checked, terran trades units before maxing out with those parade pushes. I shall repeat it again: mule in mid game is nothing else than ability to get 270 minerals faster. It's nothing other than the ability to get minerals faster, but that's still a very important mechanic to have. Stating what a mule does doesn't make it any less important. Mules can be used as a consistent source of income, which defines your production capacity, and has nothing to do with banking resources. In early game, mules are a big economic boon without the risk of an extra expansion. In late game, it's 50 supply you don't need to spend on workers in order to continue mining, plus the ability to focus all your mining efforts on one base. That is, in the phase of the game where your resources are limited by your base count, another race needs to get 3 expansions and mine from them to get the same mineral benefit as Terran getting 1 expansion. Yes, yet for some reason it is hard to see active usage of mules in mid game TvZ, should i ask why? In the mid-game, scans become more valuable. Terrans have gotten used to storing some energy on OCs, delaying mules, preparing for a scan to save their life. Or actively scanning to see a tech choice. It's not that the mules become less useful, it's that the scans become more useful. Also, if you're fighting for an expansion, you're saving your energy for that.
Fully agreed on that. My point is that during mid game mules become less valuable, since income is pretty much set and it is perfect for 5-6 minute long constant rally (especially considering that due to no usage of mules, you can mine longer, and now that is important thing for rally pushes IMO). They are becoming emergency tool to get a fast income burst should you lose SCVs or get new base up, while scans are the main consumer of OC energy.
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2012: zergs can upgrade to hive too quickly /whine
2013: zergs can upgrade to hive too slowly /whine
yet nothing has changed about the build times
Maybe we need other solutions than adjusting the tech tree?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 05:39 Grumbels wrote:
2012: zergs can upgrade to hive too quickly /whine
2013: zergs can upgrade to hive too slowly /whine
yet nothing has changed about the build times
Maybe we need other solutions than adjusting the tech tree?
You missed the part, where whine was from different sides :D.
Also, quick hive was related to the fact, that most of zergs played ling-festor midgame, so their gas was in few winfestors, upgrades and lings. Now gas is in mutas, banes and upgrades and you can question what is more expensive.
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Sure ravens are worth to get, but for sure not before medivacs. The right time for ravens is once terran is on 3 base and everything else has been settled. Then ravens can be easily added with an extra starport. At the costs of 6 marines for the first raven and 2 marines for any additional one.
- the additional starport can also be used to build additional medivacs/vikings when needed (after a loss of many medivacs e.g.)
- missiles deal huge damage to e.g. small units like zergling/baneling groups
- missiles are devestating against infestors, do well against most other zerg units too
- missiles can dispel zergs from a certain position; enaugh time to snipe an expansion while zerg units run away; mutalisks need to instantly retreat once missiles are on them
- if zerg makes a mistake against missiles, it is the instant win for terran
- auto turrets help to tank alot of damage
- building the first raven means that the terran can buy 6 marines less
- building a raven force from then on (after the first raven, when being on 3 base) for the cost of 2 marines/each means that the terran army has 2 marines less every 60 game seconds, which barely is visible. The gas costs dont count as terrans cant/dont build any other gas heavy units instead and have enaugh gas banked already. They will bank more and more gas if not building ravens.
Still terrans don't build ravens at all, not even in the later stages.
TvZ Ravens are maybe the best & most underused units in macrogames.
The first 6 marines missing maybe are visible, but from then on they not really are anymore. Ravens also dont need to be used, once the first has been produced. It is safe to let them behind, gain energy and use them once you have several of them, so a single one doesn't get sniped early on.
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On August 27 2013 02:59 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources) The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense. If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map. But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though.
A raven gives HSM vs the zerg army, which will either cause mutalisks to stall back or you kill at least a few banes and force the zerg to do even more micro at the cost of 1 click (and a little extra micro can result in a big mistake vs mines). It also means you can clear up creep without burning scans, and since T is mineral starved and not gas starved this means each scan you save actually completely makes up for the cost of the raven. Technically, it might be worth it for T to get all 6 or more gas and an extra starport to make raven's throughout the game. Really though, a majority of terrans commenting about zerg are almost completely clueless about playing zerg at a high level (or seem to be).
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For sure it is worth to add an extra starport for the raven production. The earlier terrans start the earlier they have a critical number of them. But for sure not before medivacs and against early baneling burrow! 2 Marines less per 60 seconds isnt even visible. I even dare to say that a few marines less in every terran army/push means that banelings can only connect to a fewer number of marines and the marines are more easily splitable which equalizes the few missing marines. Then you still have the extra ravens.
Also I believe, that once ravens are fully used as intended in TvZ, they will appear to be op because the missile is too strong vs banelings, infestors, corruptors and broodlords while it is at least decent against any other Z unit. It is once again a mechanic that can lose games for zergs instantly when doing a tiny mistake, similar to mines and high dps bio push/snipe & drop play.
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On August 27 2013 05:39 Grumbels wrote:
2012: zergs can upgrade to hive too quickly /whine
2013: zergs can upgrade to hive too slowly /whine
yet nothing has changed about the build times
Maybe we need other solutions than adjusting the tech tree?
Truth be told, if I was David Kim for a day, I'd remove Terran building armor and give it to the zergs. Even on the evo chamber, we'd get it every damn game.
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ZvT has kind of reversed roles. Terran units/buildings/upgrades have a design that support the defensive style of play. But metagame is the exact opposite. +2 armour upgrade for buildings, +2 marines per bunker, +ranke for turrets and PF just to name the upgrades.
This can also be seen as the reason why metal is not viable, cause metal has its strengths more in defense than in offense.
Obvisouly alot of things dont work as intended yet, and never have been. Probably wont ever!
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While we are talking about mules, Terran often lose 30minerals per mule which adds up. Basically, a muled base brings in less total minerals than Zerg or Protoss.
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On August 27 2013 03:32 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. This post deserves a blue bar. Old but still relevant fact: Forcing a Terran to burn scans costs 270 minerals, half a CC is lost each time you force a T to scan. A burrowed baneling or two detonations along a typical AI a-move path will make any T paranoid. Edit: Content. In theory its good. But when terran starts 11:00 pressure and continues zergs need all forces to stay alive. Killing addons and production buildings, baneling carpet bombs are all possible, but in diamond league I guess.
Again I can only say that Baneling carpet bombing is just an idea .... the most important part is that you need to hit the RIGHT TARGET and SCVs gathering minerals isnt it.
Carpet bombing probably works best against workers OR a massive amount of Zealots, so it doesnt really apply to ZvT. Dropping a handful of Roaches into the enemy production will probably be the best way to disrupt it AND you need to start ASAP and not later in the game when there are eight Barracks and several Factories producing big waves of stuff. A dozen Roaches in three Overlords probably can take the punishment from an equal amount of Marines while taking down several addons.
A key element is to "surprise" the Terran too. Roaches are dealt with more easily by Marauders, BUT if you only show Zerglings to the Terran he wont build them and stick to the pure Marine (and Widow Mine) composition. So the first knowledge of Roaches should come with that first drop. They dont really need any upgrades other than burrow, because they wont need to move much anyways and burrow just adds to the annoyance of having to get rid of them with a scan.
As I said before ... I just throw out the "theory" and a few ideas. Those might be junk, but discarding them right from the start is a bad way of trying to solve a problem.
On August 27 2013 03:13 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:03 Rabiator wrote:On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg. Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it. If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost. I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything. Idea #1: Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens. Idea #2: What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long. The gist of it all is ... do something ... different! (1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig". Last time i checked, nearly all terrans nowadays use some kind of early pressure be it hellions or stuff Bomber showed in his TvZs use it only to kill 3rd base. Granted, lack of visible third base can scare terran into thinking it might be some all-in, true that. So ninja 3rd can work as trickery in modern TvZ, but not as reliable decision if you ask me. Should i say should it be found, it won't live long? About covering stuff with spine crawlers. I know, it is hard to believe, but hellions are used for guess what... map control. And spine crawlers won't bring it back to you.
This "early pressure" is exactly what I mean. Just how do Zerg try to defend against this "pressure before Medivac"? They build Zerglings which mostly die because speed isnt done and the numbers are too few or they line up when running towards the Hellions. Just count them and the expense [early and very valuable larvae!] of it and compare it with a few Spine Crawlers which probably wont be killed by Hellions.
Try to use building placement to your advantage ... build one or two Evolution Chambers and block the rest of the entrance with Spine Crawlers. Since you can move the Crawlers later on [and open "the door"] that wont inconvenience you much, but the Hellions can only get in by Medivac now and that delays it a lot and reduces the number of things you have to look for.
Sure enough a "hidden third" isnt going to live long enough, BUT if a significant part of his force is doing that you can counterattack his base (and the much more vital production) or pick off reinforcements. In any case he has to "waste reources" [time is a resource too] by looking for the third (which is going to take long on a large map). The biggest problem of the hidden third is that there needs to be viable 2-base strategies which are dangerous to face and it seems that this isnt the case for Zerg. The thing which convinces me of the "power of hidden bases" is that there are often dark spots on the minimap in progames ... where maybe the initial scout went once and no one ever ventures afterwards. Even the middle gold bases on Neo Planet S remain completely dark many times ... just use that to your advantage and NOT IN EVERY GAME (but in a deciding game of a series it could be a strong bonus). Just swap the predictable "3rd at my 3rd base" with the unpredictable location ... sometimes.
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On August 27 2013 08:08 LSN wrote:
Sure ravens are worth to get, but for sure not before medivacs. The right time for ravens is once terran is on 3 base and everything else has been settled. Then ravens can be easily added with an extra starport. At the costs of 6 marines for the first raven and 2 marines for any additional one.
- the additional starport can also be used to build additional medivacs/vikings when needed (after a loss of many medivacs e.g.)
- missiles deal huge damage to e.g. small units like zergling/baneling groups
- missiles are devestating against infestors, do well against most other zerg units too
- missiles can dispel zergs from a certain position; enaugh time to snipe an expansion while zerg units run away; mutalisks need to instantly retreat once missiles are on them
- if zerg makes a mistake against missiles, it is the instant win for terran
- auto turrets help to tank alot of damage
- building the first raven means that the terran can buy 6 marines less
- building a raven force from then on (after the first raven, when being on 3 base) for the cost of 2 marines/each means that the terran army has 2 marines less every 60 game seconds, which barely is visible. The gas costs dont count as terrans cant/dont build any other gas heavy units instead and have enaugh gas banked already. They will bank more and more gas if not building ravens.
Still terrans don't build ravens at all, not even in the later stages.
TvZ Ravens are maybe the best & most underused units in macrogames.
The first 6 marines missing maybe are visible, but from then on they not really are anymore. Ravens also dont need to be used, once the first has been produced. It is safe to let them behind, gain energy and use them once you have several of them, so a single one doesn't get sniped early on.
Why is fungal no longer as powerful? A) Damage, and, B) It's a missile attack.
The missile portion makes it much more likely to miss versus skilled opponents. Raven's seeker missiles are -WORSE- than fungals. It has a FIVE SECONDS timer to be out of range. At the ling/bling/muta phase, seeker missiles are worthless. The Zerg army is too mobile at that point.
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On August 27 2013 03:15 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:03 Rabiator wrote:On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg. Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it. If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost. I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything. Idea #1: Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens. Idea #2: What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long. The gist of it all is ... do something ... different! (1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig". It´s good to throw in new ideas, but then again not all of them will work. Firstly butting spines in early game might help against aggro, but what if the terran is even semi-competent and just plays more greedy and makes sure you can´t take your fourth as you have just lost all possibility to turn on the aggression and given up huge amount of map presence. Also your spines must be perfect because if hellions etc get in and you have to move them you are in a pickle. The second idea of taking your third somewhere else is just not really great. That might work once, but then terrans start to look for it with small amount of units and take it down. When this happens you are totally srewed as all of the drones will also go down.
First off I am not claiming that my ideas work. All I am saying is that the "typical Zerg player" seems to be very lazy and complacent AND unimaginative. They have great tools in their arsenal but dont use them because they like to go through a solid brick wall head first. The whole situation reminds me of this:
+ Show Spoiler +
early resource management
Building Spine Crawlers is meant as a method of saving larvae, because Zerglings usually die in greater numbers against early Terran harrassment and it might even remove the need to get a third base very early if you wall in at your natural. This should be very cheap on Neo Planet S for example, because the choke at the natural is very narrow. The saved resources could be turned into extra Drones or saved for later on when you have established a greater economy and are able to produce a much bigger clump of units at once. This could even help a 2-base strategy ... who knows. Bomber seemed to play "without Medivacs" for quite some time and if that catches on it could be a cheap trick to wall off and be safe behind it.
hidden/unpredictable base locations
The "take your third elsewhere" idea does not only apply to the third, but also the following bases. There are many many many (I would say all of them) progames, where the next base is always literally the next base even though two more "starting locations" in the very corners of the map are still available. Since the timing of your fourth and fifth base isnt going to be easy to tell you might want to get them "over there" instead of "right next to me". The only problem is to get those workers over there without anyone spotting it, but Overlord drop upgrade could help hiding that. Oh and dont rally units from those bases to your army for the same reason ... keep them for building Overlords and Drones and maybe emergency stockpiles of larvae.
The idea is also meant to be used sometimes to make yourself unpredictable and possibly even waste the time of the Terran in a game when you play "straight up". So far no one ... really no one ... is ever going for hidden bases and thus no one needs to look for them. Make them do it and make them pay if they dont ...
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EPT
