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On August 27 2013 13:52 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 08:08 LSN wrote:
Sure ravens are worth to get, but for sure not before medivacs. The right time for ravens is once terran is on 3 base and everything else has been settled. Then ravens can be easily added with an extra starport. At the costs of 6 marines for the first raven and 2 marines for any additional one.
- the additional starport can also be used to build additional medivacs/vikings when needed (after a loss of many medivacs e.g.)
- missiles deal huge damage to e.g. small units like zergling/baneling groups
- missiles are devestating against infestors, do well against most other zerg units too
- missiles can dispel zergs from a certain position; enaugh time to snipe an expansion while zerg units run away; mutalisks need to instantly retreat once missiles are on them
- if zerg makes a mistake against missiles, it is the instant win for terran
- auto turrets help to tank alot of damage
- building the first raven means that the terran can buy 6 marines less
- building a raven force from then on (after the first raven, when being on 3 base) for the cost of 2 marines/each means that the terran army has 2 marines less every 60 game seconds, which barely is visible. The gas costs dont count as terrans cant/dont build any other gas heavy units instead and have enaugh gas banked already. They will bank more and more gas if not building ravens.
Still terrans don't build ravens at all, not even in the later stages.
TvZ Ravens are maybe the best & most underused units in macrogames.
The first 6 marines missing maybe are visible, but from then on they not really are anymore. Ravens also dont need to be used, once the first has been produced. It is safe to let them behind, gain energy and use them once you have several of them, so a single one doesn't get sniped early on. Why is fungal no longer as powerful? A) Damage, and, B) It's a missile attack. The missile portion makes it much more likely to miss versus skilled opponents. Raven's seeker missiles are -WORSE- than fungals. It has a FIVE SECONDS timer to be out of range. At the ling/bling/muta phase, seeker missiles are worthless. The Zerg army is too mobile at that point.
Well it depends upon the side you are on. You say that it is going to "miss versus a skilled opponent", but you could also say that the Zerg player could learn to "aim better" to increase its efficiency. Instead of hitting where the unit IS people need to become good at aiming for the place where they WILL BE. That really hasnt happened so far and Zerg players can "develop skill" too ...
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On August 27 2013 13:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:32 saddaromma wrote:On August 27 2013 03:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. This post deserves a blue bar. Old but still relevant fact: Forcing a Terran to burn scans costs 270 minerals, half a CC is lost each time you force a T to scan. A burrowed baneling or two detonations along a typical AI a-move path will make any T paranoid. Edit: Content. In theory its good. But when terran starts 11:00 pressure and continues zergs need all forces to stay alive. Killing addons and production buildings, baneling carpet bombs are all possible, but in diamond league I guess. Again I can only say that Baneling carpet bombing is just an idea .... the most important part is that you need to hit the RIGHT TARGET and SCVs gathering minerals isnt it. Carpet bombing probably works best against workers OR a massive amount of Zealots, so it doesnt really apply to ZvT. Dropping a handful of Roaches into the enemy production will probably be the best way to disrupt it AND you need to start ASAP and not later in the game when there are eight Barracks and several Factories producing big waves of stuff. A dozen Roaches in three Overlords probably can take the punishment from an equal amount of Marines while taking down several addons. A key element is to "surprise" the Terran too. Roaches are dealt with more easily by Marauders, BUT if you only show Zerglings to the Terran he wont build them and stick to the pure Marine (and Widow Mine) composition. So the first knowledge of Roaches should come with that first drop. They dont really need any upgrades other than burrow, because they wont need to move much anyways and burrow just adds to the annoyance of having to get rid of them with a scan. As I said before ... I just throw out the "theory" and a few ideas. Those might be junk, but discarding them right from the start is a bad way of trying to solve a problem. Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:13 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 27 2013 03:03 Rabiator wrote:On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg. Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it. If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost. I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything. Idea #1: Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens. Idea #2: What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long. The gist of it all is ... do something ... different! (1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig". Last time i checked, nearly all terrans nowadays use some kind of early pressure be it hellions or stuff Bomber showed in his TvZs use it only to kill 3rd base. Granted, lack of visible third base can scare terran into thinking it might be some all-in, true that. So ninja 3rd can work as trickery in modern TvZ, but not as reliable decision if you ask me. Should i say should it be found, it won't live long? About covering stuff with spine crawlers. I know, it is hard to believe, but hellions are used for guess what... map control. And spine crawlers won't bring it back to you. This "early pressure" is exactly what I mean. Just how do Zerg try to defend against this "pressure before Medivac"? They build Zerglings which mostly die because speed isnt done and the numbers are too few or they line up when running towards the Hellions. Just count them and the expense [early and very valuable larvae!] of it and compare it with a few Spine Crawlers which probably wont be killed by Hellions. Try to use building placement to your advantage ... build one or two Evolution Chambers and block the rest of the entrance with Spine Crawlers. Since you can move the Crawlers later on [and open "the door"] that wont inconvenience you much, but the Hellions can only get in by Medivac now and that delays it a lot and reduces the number of things you have to look for. Sure enough a "hidden third" isnt going to live long enough, BUT if a significant part of his force is doing that you can counterattack his base (and the much more vital production) or pick off reinforcements. In any case he has to "waste reources" [time is a resource too] by looking for the third (which is going to take long on a large map). The biggest problem of the hidden third is that there needs to be viable 2-base strategies which are dangerous to face and it seems that this isnt the case for Zerg. The thing which convinces me of the "power of hidden bases" is that there are often dark spots on the minimap in progames ... where maybe the initial scout went once and no one ever ventures afterwards. Even the middle gold bases on Neo Planet S remain completely dark many times ... just use that to your advantage and NOT IN EVERY GAME (but in a deciding game of a series it could be a strong bonus). Just swap the predictable "3rd at my 3rd base" with the unpredictable location ... sometimes.
lol so zerg should play completely unexpected so that they can win games SOMETIMES?
hidden 3rd base and sealed entrance? lol
Why pro doesn't need to scout the dark corners is because they know something is up when timing from the opponent feels different.
After you fend off the initial 1/1 medivac marine pressure, your hidden 3rd will just be way too far to hold for the next pushes and you can't possible hope to grab a 4th safely if you lose that 3rd.
you seriously do way too much theorycrafting without actually playing and understanding zerg mechanics.
winning games isn't impossible for zerg, suggesting that zerg should do hidden third to win some games etc is just like saying terran should just 2 rax and give a surprise factor to zerg during gglord WoL games. they don't matter when we are talking about balance.
Roach drop? Just think about how gas starved Zerg is in the current metagame. Terran always get 1 to 2 tech lab rax if they go standard quick 3CC build. Mauraders with medivac can kill insane amount of roaches with stim and heal energy.
Even if terran doesn't produce marauders, a medivac with marines will deal with roaches just fine because there is nothing to bring down the medivac count.
what's worse, you might even need to delay upgrades, banelings, muta or roaches production for this strategy.
It would be good if these kinda drop can hit before stim is done but that's just not likely assuming you go fast 3rd yourself.
it's nice of you to think for zerg how to win games but honestly, saying you can just kill off their production facilities etc is just too wishful as in you think zerg can somehow bypass the Terran's army and just attack the building facilities and sniping add ons.
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Roach drops vs bio... we are at the delirium.
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On August 27 2013 13:52 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 08:08 LSN wrote:
Sure ravens are worth to get, but for sure not before medivacs. The right time for ravens is once terran is on 3 base and everything else has been settled. Then ravens can be easily added with an extra starport. At the costs of 6 marines for the first raven and 2 marines for any additional one.
- the additional starport can also be used to build additional medivacs/vikings when needed (after a loss of many medivacs e.g.)
- missiles deal huge damage to e.g. small units like zergling/baneling groups
- missiles are devestating against infestors, do well against most other zerg units too
- missiles can dispel zergs from a certain position; enaugh time to snipe an expansion while zerg units run away; mutalisks need to instantly retreat once missiles are on them
- if zerg makes a mistake against missiles, it is the instant win for terran
- auto turrets help to tank alot of damage
- building the first raven means that the terran can buy 6 marines less
- building a raven force from then on (after the first raven, when being on 3 base) for the cost of 2 marines/each means that the terran army has 2 marines less every 60 game seconds, which barely is visible. The gas costs dont count as terrans cant/dont build any other gas heavy units instead and have enaugh gas banked already. They will bank more and more gas if not building ravens.
Still terrans don't build ravens at all, not even in the later stages.
TvZ Ravens are maybe the best & most underused units in macrogames.
The first 6 marines missing maybe are visible, but from then on they not really are anymore. Ravens also dont need to be used, once the first has been produced. It is safe to let them behind, gain energy and use them once you have several of them, so a single one doesn't get sniped early on. Why is fungal no longer as powerful? A) Damage, and, B) It's a missile attack. The missile portion makes it much more likely to miss versus skilled opponents. Raven's seeker missiles are -WORSE- than fungals. It has a FIVE SECONDS timer to be out of range. At the ling/bling/muta phase, seeker missiles are worthless. The Zerg army is too mobile at that point.
Terrans ONLY dodge fungal (and usually dodging fungal is part of their natural movement as they run back towards their mines). Zerg has to dodge mines, control mutalisks to focus fire mines, baneling detonate mines, surround kiting marines etc. Throwing in something as simple as HSM can really push things over the edge for what the player is capable of doing and either force them to screw up or force them to fall back (either way it is a win as you either gain ground or kill lots of stuff, for a "small" cost). That is just 1 HSM, you can throw in a few when they fully engage and cause some serious mayhem. Plus, like I say... you keep creep spread more under control.
EDIT: BTW, ignore rabiator's concepts of drops and stuff. They are a bit ridiculous. He wants Z to invest 400+ gas and a ton of time into getting roach drops out before the 10 minute mark. Until he actually tries them out against decent players, he really shouldn't keep mentioning it.
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For those who seemed to have missed the point of my ramblings yet again ...
You need to
- STOP trying to go through the endlessly reproducing army of Terran bio/mine,
- STOP trying to "harrass" him by attacking SCVs that gather minerals and
- START hitting the true bottleneck of Terrans: the production facilities. These take AGES to build up and without them even Bill Gates wouldnt be able to get a large army.
How you do it is is YOUR JOB to figure out; I am just pointing out a few things like "dont do the obvious which everyone does to keep him on his toes". Looking at a TvZ I would say that the Terran wins because he has the initiative and pressures the Zerg. If the Terran can start this earlier than the Zerg the only chance is to "take the wind out of his sails" by threatening his backside and his production. Due to the MULE and the low requirement for gas any attacks on 3rd/4th resource gathering bases wont really scare or hinder a Terran, so forget about them! There arent that many ways to really harrass a Terran production, but Mutalisks seems far too costly and risky to use and thus drops is the only viable one IMO. So you can laugh and whine about Roach drops as much as you like, they are probably vastly superior to dropping Zerglings or Banelings and due to the high hit points and super regeneration AND burrowed movement seem to be made for the job.
idea/reminder about Zerg abilities #43
Casters tend to remind us that bio really gets "hard to beat" when they get to the 3/3 upgrade. Well thats probably true, but Zerg can do something about it by using CONTAMINATE on the Engineering Bay. If you manage to do it that will slow the Terran down and alternatively you make the Terran build several Missile Turrets OR park some units back there to prevent it. Win/win ... and all you need to do is use your abilities.
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rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone
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On August 27 2013 15:45 Rabiator wrote:
For those who seemed to have missed the point of my ramblings yet again ...
You need to
- STOP trying to go through the endlessly reproducing army of Terran bio/mine,
- STOP trying to "harrass" him by attacking SCVs that gather minerals and
- START hitting the true bottleneck of Terrans: the production facilities. These take AGES to build up and without them even Bill Gates wouldnt be able to get a large army.
How you do it is is YOUR JOB to figure out; I am just pointing out a few things like "dont do the obvious which everyone does to keep him on his toes". Looking at a TvZ I would say that the Terran wins because he has the initiative and pressures the Zerg. If the Terran can start this earlier than the Zerg the only chance is to "take the wind out of his sails" by threatening his backside and his production. Due to the MULE and the low requirement for gas any attacks on 3rd/4th resource gathering bases wont really scare or hinder a Terran, so forget about them! There arent that many ways to really harrass a Terran production, but Mutalisks seems far too costly and risky to use and thus drops is the only viable one IMO. So you can laugh and whine about Roach drops as much as you like, they are probably vastly superior to dropping Zerglings or Banelings and due to the high hit points and super regeneration AND burrowed movement seem to be made for the job.
idea/reminder about Zerg abilities #43
Casters tend to remind us that bio really gets "hard to beat" when they get to the 3/3 upgrade. Well thats probably true, but Zerg can do something about it by using CONTAMINATE on the Engineering Bay. If you manage to do it that will slow the Terran down and alternatively you make the Terran build several Missile Turrets OR park some units back there to prevent it. Win/win ... and all you need to do is use your abilities.
No, we got that point. We just think your ideas are dumb and that you should stop saying them over and over. Roach drops you cant get out in time unless it is a 2 base allin. Carpet bombing isnt really a great one. Nydus just cant work vs terran because their buildings are always spread all around their base so they see it.
I do find it humorous that your post seems to suggest that zerg has the disadvantage in a standard game though.
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On August 27 2013 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:
rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone
While I agree he should stay away, you should join him because you would still cry when the winrates are 120% for Zerg Tsubbi 
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On August 27 2013 15:57 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:
rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone While I agree he should stay away, you should join him because you would still cry when the winrates are 120% for Zerg Tsubbi
dont know why you pick a fight with me all the time when im using nothing but stats to discuss balance and want 50% winrates across all matchups with design that allows the better player to win usually, its obvious that there have been problems in the zvt matchup lately which blizzard acknowledge by now as well so why dont you stop denying this in here all the time?
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I wonder if the game would be broken if they just made widowmines not shoot up.
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On August 27 2013 16:02 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 15:57 NarutO wrote:On August 27 2013 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:
rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone While I agree he should stay away, you should join him because you would still cry when the winrates are 120% for Zerg Tsubbi dont know why you pick a fight with me all the time when im using nothing but stats to discuss balance and want 50% winrates across all matchups with design that allows the better player to win usually, its obvious that there have been problems in the zvt matchup lately which blizzard acknowledge by now as well so why dont you stop denying this in here all the time?
Because the problems that occur in the match up are not as you mention they are. Its on the very highest level or if the Terran is is better that he can show domination. If they are on equal footing, the Terran doesn't look as dominant. You make it sound like Terran needs neither skill nor can he potentially lose if he playes well. Thats what pisses me off. You are by no means as good as you think you are neither do you understand the match up well (I could quote various bullshit things, but really I don't want to go through all your dumb posts again).
If it would be as broken as you said, TvZ would be out of control at any level, but as you can see, it is not. You cherry pick statistics you like, while ignoring those tournaments and statistics that do no favor Terran. Thats why I pick "a fight" 
I mentioned going 3-3 cutting 3 mutas to get to give. Makes no real difference in the fights, does make a difference in game. Yet Jaedong who had ressources to get 3-3 long ago vs Bomber didn't do so.
OR you could read my other suggestions that would help Zerg, but you choose to whine without providing anything to the discussion.
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On August 27 2013 16:03 bo1b wrote:
I wonder if the game would be broken if they just made widowmines not shoot up.
isnt countering mass muta their purpose though? terran would need something to make up for the ensuing complete lack of splash antiair. Science Vessel and Irradiate would be my favorite solution but but...
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There's a discussion a couple pages back about irradiate and science vessel in sc2. Would be lolzish to have something that powerful with smart cast though at the very least.
In any event it's not the splash to air which makes zerg players sometimes just flop over and die
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On August 27 2013 16:07 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 16:02 Tsubbi wrote:On August 27 2013 15:57 NarutO wrote:On August 27 2013 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:
rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone While I agree he should stay away, you should join him because you would still cry when the winrates are 120% for Zerg Tsubbi dont know why you pick a fight with me all the time when im using nothing but stats to discuss balance and want 50% winrates across all matchups with design that allows the better player to win usually, its obvious that there have been problems in the zvt matchup lately which blizzard acknowledge by now as well so why dont you stop denying this in here all the time? Because the problems that occur in the match up are not as you mention they are. Its on the very highest level or if the Terran is is better that he can show domination. If they are on equal footing, the Terran doesn't look as dominant. You make it sound like Terran needs neither skill nor can he potentially lose if he playes well. Thats what pisses me off. You are by no means as good as you think you are neither do you understand the match up well (I could quote various bullshit things, but really I don't want to go through all your dumb posts again). If it would be as broken as you said, TvZ would be out of control at any level, but as you can see, it is not. You cherry pick statistics you like, while ignoring those tournaments and statistics that do no favor Terran. Thats why I pick "a fight" I mentioned going 3-3 cutting 3 mutas to get to give. Makes no real difference in the fights, does make a difference in game. Yet Jaedong who had ressources to get 3-3 long ago vs Bomber didn't do so. OR you could read my other suggestions that would help Zerg, but you choose to whine without providing anything to the discussion.
no thats exactly what you do, you go into detail about how this or that while im just using stats, if across all leagues and tounrnaments in korea the winrates are around 60% for tvz there might be a problem
what you do is come in here and try to defend these winrates in favor of terran with all kinds of arbitrary arguments
while i do like that youre participating here as a gm player (im high master / low gm btw) i think youre too biased sometimes (as am i in favor of zerg) which is why i think its best to use objective data as much as possible when discussing balance
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On August 27 2013 16:14 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 16:07 NarutO wrote:On August 27 2013 16:02 Tsubbi wrote:On August 27 2013 15:57 NarutO wrote:On August 27 2013 15:54 Tsubbi wrote:
rabiator usually i just skip your posts but today i read one of them again and no offense but i suggest you to stay away from and design / balance thread and actually play the game for like a month or two and then come back, while your persistance in writing and discussing is admirable if you actually had a bit more knowledge the content would be way more interesting for everyone While I agree he should stay away, you should join him because you would still cry when the winrates are 120% for Zerg Tsubbi dont know why you pick a fight with me all the time when im using nothing but stats to discuss balance and want 50% winrates across all matchups with design that allows the better player to win usually, its obvious that there have been problems in the zvt matchup lately which blizzard acknowledge by now as well so why dont you stop denying this in here all the time? Because the problems that occur in the match up are not as you mention they are. Its on the very highest level or if the Terran is is better that he can show domination. If they are on equal footing, the Terran doesn't look as dominant. You make it sound like Terran needs neither skill nor can he potentially lose if he playes well. Thats what pisses me off. You are by no means as good as you think you are neither do you understand the match up well (I could quote various bullshit things, but really I don't want to go through all your dumb posts again). If it would be as broken as you said, TvZ would be out of control at any level, but as you can see, it is not. You cherry pick statistics you like, while ignoring those tournaments and statistics that do no favor Terran. Thats why I pick "a fight" I mentioned going 3-3 cutting 3 mutas to get to give. Makes no real difference in the fights, does make a difference in game. Yet Jaedong who had ressources to get 3-3 long ago vs Bomber didn't do so. OR you could read my other suggestions that would help Zerg, but you choose to whine without providing anything to the discussion. no thats exactly what you do, you go into detail about how this or that while im just using stats, if across all leagues and tounrnaments in korea the winrates are around 60% for tvz there might be a problem what you do is come in here and try to defend these winrates in favor of terran with all kinds of arbitrary arguments while i do like that youre participating here as a gm player (im high master / low gm btw) i think youre too biased sometimes (as am i in favor of zerg) which is why i think its best to use objective data as much as possible when discussing balance
If I am biased I would not make the suggestions I did on the last few pages. But reading is not your strength we all know. Probably next person to be ignored alongside LSN
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
NarutO, how many pages of posts do you have in this thread if I may ask? (filter yourself to find out)
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On August 27 2013 16:03 bo1b wrote:
I wonder if the game would be broken if they just made widowmines not shoot up. Oracles.
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On August 27 2013 16:22 lichter wrote:
NarutO, how many pages of posts do you have in this thread if I may ask? (filter yourself to find out)
10 - why?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 27 2013 16:34 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 16:22 lichter wrote:
NarutO, how many pages of posts do you have in this thread if I may ask? (filter yourself to find out) 10 - why?
I dunno, whenever I stumble into this thread (I am a masochist it seems) it's always you in an argument :p
I'm surprised you're only 1.4% of the thread
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On August 27 2013 16:36 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 16:34 NarutO wrote:On August 27 2013 16:22 lichter wrote:
NarutO, how many pages of posts do you have in this thread if I may ask? (filter yourself to find out) 10 - why? I dunno, whenever I stumble into this thread (I am a masochist it seems) it's always you in an argument :p I'm surprised you're only 1.4% of the thread
I long wanted to give up on this thread (basically like TheDwf) but the problem is, if only the whine is left, the buffs will come ! I had a discussion with TargA at ATC (with Harstem, TargA, Salt etc) and TargA even mentioned that broodlord/infestor was fine :D:D (<3 TargA if you read this) but that shows that even very good players sometimes are a bit nuts. So ofcourse I will stand strong for my race, but I made suggestions to buff/nerf Terran aspects around the widowmine as buffing Zerg will obviously have impact on ZvP as well, while working on mines will most likely just change TvZ because we rarely see them outside TvZ (besides minedrop/minedefence early)
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EPT
