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On August 27 2013 00:09 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:59 juusoko wrote:On August 26 2013 23:49 Jer99 wrote:
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away Because it's right there, where the Z needs to get new tech out. You don't want to delay mutalisks even a second, if you don't have to. Banelings mines are amazing when they hit, but they are no widow mines - you can't rely on them. If the terran simply scans or walks past them, they're wasted resource. It is easier to try to get a perfect engagement with rolling banelings than using your thoughts on making bmines. No one forces you to stop anything Mutalisk related ... just build four Banelings less than you would and you have the cost of the upgrade. The advantage of forcing scans, being able to save Drones harrassed by a drop, hidden scouts where they dont think you have one and burrow-micro is just sooo big that I am kinda surprised Zerg find it "unnecessary" and "not worth the resources".
So we place lot of baneling mines. What stops you from getting a raven? Is it that huge investment?
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On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran.
Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons:
1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway
2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket
3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used
Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan.
Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away.
Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base.
From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 00:32 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 00:09 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 23:59 juusoko wrote:On August 26 2013 23:49 Jer99 wrote:
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away Because it's right there, where the Z needs to get new tech out. You don't want to delay mutalisks even a second, if you don't have to. Banelings mines are amazing when they hit, but they are no widow mines - you can't rely on them. If the terran simply scans or walks past them, they're wasted resource. It is easier to try to get a perfect engagement with rolling banelings than using your thoughts on making bmines. No one forces you to stop anything Mutalisk related ... just build four Banelings less than you would and you have the cost of the upgrade. The advantage of forcing scans, being able to save Drones harrassed by a drop, hidden scouts where they dont think you have one and burrow-micro is just sooo big that I am kinda surprised Zerg find it "unnecessary" and "not worth the resources". So we place lot of baneling mines. What stops you from getting a raven? Is it that huge investment?
Well, raven is only good investment after you get that critical mass of medivacs IMO, since you will have idle starport and gas.
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Canada8157 Posts
It is a huge investment
It delays our medicacs by over a full minute, costs a decent amount of resources, and is so slow that if we look away from it for 1 second you can pick it off with mutalisks
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On August 27 2013 00:36 Jer99 wrote:
It is a huge investment
It delays our medicacs by over a full minute, costs a decent amount of resources, and is so slow that if we look away from it for 1 second you can pick it off with mutalisks
That's ridiculous. If you ignore your units or leave them out of position, you'll lose them, yes. Keep your raven with your army and baneling mines are harmless. What Z is going to risk his mutas to fly over a marine army after a raven?
The cost of a raven pays for itself in all the useless baneling mines you'll be able to kill, or else it's at least offset by the now-useless burrow tech Z invested in. And it's not like you're forced to get it -- it's just an option you can bring out if you'd rather spend OC energy on mules.
Plus, ravens have useful spells in addition to their detection, so it's not like a dead-weight overseer.
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You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about.
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On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about.
I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources)
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On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources)
The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense.
If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map.
But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though.
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On August 27 2013 02:59 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources) The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense. If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map. But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though.
You're forced to build a raven, but that's a raven who is now part of your army, and can contribute to the game in a meaningful way. The money Zerg spends on baneling mines that get detected are simply lost income.
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On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg.
Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it.
If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost.
I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything.
Idea #1:
Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens.
Idea #2:
What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long.
The gist of it all is ... do something ... different!
(1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig".
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On August 27 2013 03:02 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 02:59 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources) The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense. If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map. But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though. You're forced to build a raven, but that's a raven who is now part of your army, and can contribute to the game in a meaningful way. The money Zerg spends on baneling mines that get detected are simply lost income.
I explained why zerg still has a use for burrow even if terran gets a raven.
You're also ignoring that a raven is two less medivacs....
Are you sure you read my post?
edit: like, I explain why losing 2 medivacs is such a big deal and your reply is "yeah but you get a raven and zerg cant use burrow"
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 03:03 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg. Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it. If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost. I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything. Idea #1: Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens. Idea #2: What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long. The gist of it all is ... do something ... different! (1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig".
Last time i checked, nearly all terrans nowadays use some kind of early pressure be it hellions or stuff Bomber showed in his TvZs use it only to kill 3rd base. Granted, lack of visible third base can scare terran into thinking it might be some all-in, true that. So ninja 3rd can work as trickery in modern TvZ, but not as reliable decision if you ask me. Should i say should it be found, it won't live long?
About covering stuff with spine crawlers. I know, it is hard to believe, but hellions are used for guess what... map control. And spine crawlers won't bring it back to you.
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On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed.
This post deserves a blue bar.
Old but still relevant fact: Forcing a Terran to burn scans costs 270 minerals, half a CC is lost each time you force a T to scan. A burrowed baneling or two detonations along a typical AI a-move path will make any T paranoid.
Edit: Content.
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On August 27 2013 03:03 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 00:34 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 00:01 MasterDrone wrote:On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran. Terran drops are so powerful for three reasons: 1) They use existing tech+units that would be a part of the army anyway 2) They use very consistent high-damage units that must be reacted to or else their damage will skyrocket 3) In most cases, the units can be saved and re-used Baneling carpet bombing does not match any of these three. If Terran reacts to a baneling drop, he doesn't take any damage and Zerg loses the banelings. If Terran doesn't react, Zerg kills a bit more than the banelings cost. Also, spending 200/100 to kill each 50/50 reactor is a dead-end plan. Nydus is like a pylon that costs 300 gas, and as another user said, the slow load/unload makes them absolutely useless when enemy units get involved. With anything but hydra, it's better to just run your units away. Dropping units would be great if zerg could spare the units. In a 4M vs Z game at Lair tech, Zerg is usually scrambling for units to fight off the 4M army and drops. You need to be very far ahead in order to get drop tech + a number of units to drop. We're talking a 400 gas investment for dropping 8 roaches. That money is usually better spent to keep the Terran army out of our base. From the point of view of Terran, it seems like just a macro issue of not having the multitasking to drop. But Marines are really the best unit you could ever imagine dropping, and Terran doesn't need to build/tech anything for drops, it comes naturally with a 4M army. The same cannot be said for Zerg. Kinda "typical" Zerg-post answering my suggestions - a lot of "doesnt work because of XYZ" -, but I have gotten used to it. If you try you might fail;
if you dont try you have already lost. I am no Zerg player, I am just an observer not really connected with any race who is giving you an advice from an outside perspective. What you make of it is your decision ... keep on losing with "the same old junk" or try new (or old) stuff until you solve the problem. Maybe the solution isnt "tactic X" but rather choosing the right path on the fly in the game (and influenced largely by the map). There isnt going to be an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"(1)-tactic which works for everything. Idea #1: Count the number of units you lose very early and consider the larvae and resources spent there. What if you simply cover your bases with Spine Crawlers instead of these early Zerglings? I do mean sufficient numbers of them though so they survive and your investment isnt lost? No one ever tries this, but the early attacks can probably be dealt with more easily if you have one or two Spines at the entrances or ramps as an anchor point for your Zerglings and Queens. Idea #2: What if you were to take your 3rd base on a far away corner position? That should work wonders on larger maps to make sure they wont get harrassed early. Either this OR the opponent spends a large amount of time looking for it and delays any attack on the main / natural bases far too long. The gist of it all is ... do something ... different! (1) German term describing something that "does everything" ... invented in the 50s/60s by the Bundeswehr as a term describing weapon systems which could do many things ... roughly translated: "egg-laying, milk giving and wooly pig".
It´s good to throw in new ideas, but then again not all of them will work. Firstly butting spines in early game might help against aggro, but what if the terran is even semi-competent and just plays more greedy and makes sure you can´t take your fourth as you have just lost all possibility to turn on the aggression and given up huge amount of map presence. Also your spines must be perfect because if hellions etc get in and you have to move them you are in a pickle.
The second idea of taking your third somewhere else is just not really great. That might work once, but then terrans start to look for it with small amount of units and take it down. When this happens you are totally srewed as all of the drones will also go down.
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lol at that burrowed baneling vs raven discussions... we had those since 2011. Zergs wont magically start to use more banelinglandmines or be more successful with them as they are now (and quite some Zergs use them regularily). and Terrans wont magically just build ravens more and never lose anything against landmines anymore. that stuff is so figured out right now... landmines can be scary and scanning can easily be enough. It's a bit wonky for both sides to rely on those tools, but they are better than changing up your whole build to get a raven before medivacs or burrow+banelings before you have a good eco as standard play.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 03:15 Big J wrote:
lol at that burrowed baneling vs raven discussions... we had those since 2011. Zergs wont magically start to use more banelinglandmines or be more successful with them as they are now (and quite some Zergs use them regularily). and Terrans wont magically just build ravens more and never lose anything against landmines anymore. that stuff is so figured out right now... landmines can be scary and scanning can easily be enough. It's a bit wonky for both sides to rely on those tools, but they are better than changing up your whole build to get a raven before medivacs or burrow+banelings before you have a good eco as standard play.
But imo, closer to late game Raven transition could be go0t stuff.
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On August 27 2013 03:02 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 02:59 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources) The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense. If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map. But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though. You're forced to build a raven, but that's a raven who is now part of your army, and can contribute to the game in a meaningful way. The money Zerg spends on baneling mines that get detected are simply lost income.
What... a single raven is a massive loss of resources, need minimum of 6 to make any difference in a composition. That's gas not used to go for 3-3, drilling claws, marauder production, ghost production, a starport that only make one unit at a time; hope you get my point, it's as easy as you make it out to be.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 03:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2013 03:02 fdsdfg wrote:On August 27 2013 02:59 Clarity_nl wrote:On August 27 2013 02:38 RaFox17 wrote:On August 27 2013 02:21 Thezzy wrote:
You can't really compare a Raven to an Overseer.
An Overseer can be morphed from ANY Overlord once the Lair is finished and only costs 50/50 and 17 seconds to morph.
They also have 200 health, allowing them to soak a Widow Mine hit if needed (although this is somewhat redundant as they can detect them anyway).
Their speed and health allow them to be decent scouts and I saw them used as such plenty in the recent WCS.
An Overseer is much more of an Observer than it is a Raven.
A Raven by comparison (if we're going to do it) requires a full Starport with Tech-Lab add-on, 100/200 in resources and takes 60 seconds to build. For one. You can't quickly make multiple Ravens like you can quickly make 3 Overseers if you suddenly need the detection.
Sure it has spells but the tech requirements, cost, build time and lower health are all rolled into that.
Since we're going on about spells, Changelings and Contaminate aren't useless either.
I noticed several Zergs in WCS spawning Changelings constantly (free source of scouting) and I've seen Contaminate used once or twice as well (bit underused I think).
Since most Terrans will have only one Starport with a Reactor for Medivacs (for 4M), they'd have to separately get another Starport with a Tech-Lab just to get out the one Raven.
An Overseer is also not dead weight as it will always provide a source of mobile detection and scout on top of its spells, something any Zerg against 4M shouldn't shy away from.
As for 4M vs Zerg in general, I've seen Scarlett deal with it just fine using Ling/Bling/Muta, only losing to Bomber.
Bomber in each of his games goes up to his insane macro of 15 marines, 3 widow mines and 2 medivacs at a time all the while splitting the marines and burrowing the mines like a god.
Under those circumstances I have no doubt it is hard as hell for Zerg, but whether that can be solely attributed to 4M alone is something I'm not so sure about. I do understand that it is a investment for terran but is it possible that you are so used to only making 4M that you consider even a slight deviation as a huge deal. In comparison some terrans are saying that zerg should get burrow, oviespeed, nudys and oviedrop to deal with terran. In summary i really don´t think its that huge of an investment or travesty that terran´s may sometimes have the need to make a detector.(as zerg´s MUST do multiple during the whole game, which add up a ton of resources) The thing is that most zergs dont use baneling mines. When zergs do use baneling mines then yeah, getting a raven is good ofcourse, but it's a huge investment. You basically have 2 less medivacs if you get a raven, time and cost wise, which means your main army is less strong OR you can't do drops and push at the same time (and if you're not going to push why get a raven). The worst part is that when terran gets a raven, zerg just stops placing baneling mines, and can still use burrow to delay expansions etc. The difference between 2-4 and 4-6 medivacs at like 12-13 minutes gametime is immense. If it's super lategame you generally just use scans when crossing the map. But basically, if more zergs start using baneling mines then more terrans will find a way to squeeze a raven out in the midgame, which will favor zerg. I'm not claiming anything as balanced or unbalanced though. You're forced to build a raven, but that's a raven who is now part of your army, and can contribute to the game in a meaningful way. The money Zerg spends on baneling mines that get detected are simply lost income. What... a single raven is a massive loss of resources, need minimum of 6 to make any difference in a composition. That's gas not used to go for 3-3, drilling claws, marauder production, ghost production, a starport that only make one unit at a time; hope you get my point, it's as easy as you make it out to be.
See, and burrowed banelings are the gas that could be used for getting hive tech and 3-3. Haha. 1 Raven makes a ton of difference from making baneling mines nearly (!) useless to actually being able to temporarily disable mutas in area, and now imagine how funny attempts to snipe mine under PDD will look? 1 volley get's blocked and then bam, mine shot = -1 mutalisk and 40 damage to others.
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Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere 
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 03:30 RaFox17 wrote:Maybe we should move on from this discussion. I don´t see this going anywhere
Discussion here will most of time look like this.
Terrans suggest something.
Some random biased zerg will counter it.
And exchange of shots shall continue for 700 more pages.
EDIT: And no, mule is not 270 minerals. It is ability to get 270 minerals sooner and nothing else. Okay? There is a reason nearly no good player drops mules regularly (!) after saturating 3 bases. Why? You are limited by production at this point, not mineral income and mining out sooner is not good. Hence the reason most of players use CC energy for scans and emergency mules (after losing scvs to runby for example).
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EPT
