EPTNarutO> Mineral sure is vital to terran bio, but you can't deny that it's far easier for terran with flying CC, mules and PF to get mineral than it is for Zerg to get gas. I mean when I see pro players regardless of who's winning/losing/trading efficiently or not I always see both players starving for mineral, but only the zerg starving for gas. Oddly enough when 3-3 is done, even with full mine/medivac production, terran still stock-piles gas.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 722
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PPN
France248 Posts
NarutO> Mineral sure is vital to terran bio, but you can't deny that it's far easier for terran with flying CC, mules and PF to get mineral than it is for Zerg to get gas. I mean when I see pro players regardless of who's winning/losing/trading efficiently or not I always see both players starving for mineral, but only the zerg starving for gas. Oddly enough when 3-3 is done, even with full mine/medivac production, terran still stock-piles gas. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:36 NarutO wrote: Seeker missile is not an instant cast and has travel distance. Irradiation is instant and on the unit immediately. It will damage all mutalisks severly and the area of effect from it does stack / add up. This in addition with medivacspeed and defence matrix. Heaven. This....I will have nightmares tonight. Oh and I never noticed Irradiation can stack :O That and science vessels can irradiate themselves and kill drones on the ground (the vessels aren't biological so they take no damage). Starting BW atm :O | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:41 Big-t wrote: This....I will have nightmares tonight. Oh and I never noticed Irradiation can stack :O That and science vessels can irradiate themselves and kill drones on the ground (the vessels aren't biological so they take no damage). | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:44 MstrJinbo wrote: That and science vessels can irradiate themselves and kill drones on the ground (the vessels aren't biological so they take no damage). I first started watching broodwar sporadically from 2007 onwards, mainly because I had no internet at home, and no idea that pro broodwar even existed. But I remember watching Boxer do that to yellow from memory and thinking it was the most badass thing I had ever seen. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote: It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening. The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are:
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:55 bo1b wrote: The real problem isn't scans, it's that mules can both scale up a terrans income stupidly beyond anything a zerg or protoss can match, and then later on they can rely on mules as a buffer for a while if they lose a mineral line. It makes harassing the economy of a terran almost pointless past the point where they no longer build scvs. So isn't the real problem there that CCs are basically a non-investment? As seen by the typical 3 CC opener these days. It doesn't actually really cost you all that much to just plunk down another orbital command until your ready for your 3rd base. The mule or scan? decision could be seen as a skill = reward scenario but I don't think the idea "CCs are really good, I build CC lol" is as good | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:55 bo1b wrote: The real problem isn't scans, it's that mules can both scale up a terrans income stupidly beyond anything a zerg or protoss can match, and then later on they can rely on mules as a buffer for a while if they lose a mineral line. It makes harassing the economy of a terran almost pointless past the point where they no longer build scvs. Yeah right, if I as terran lose a mineral line I just call down a few mules and everything is even again. If a terran with 65 scvs and 3 OCs loses 20 scvs he loses 26% of his income If a zerg with 77 drones loses 20 drones he also loses 26% of his income The difference is: Zerg can rebuild those 20 workers a lot faster. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
Frankly I find it pretty stupid that a 3cc build/3hatch build/3 nexus bulds are as common as they are, and I think it basically ruins the enjoyment of the game both to play and to watch. I think lower econ games are far more fun. I think watching a terran take probably the most greedy build possible then defend a roach bane all in is just silly. I think watching someone drop mules and then out produce a zerg who has another base then him silly. I think a lot of things are silly tbh, probably why I play random. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
bo1b> I do agree with the fact that harrassing terran eco seems far less effective than against other races. But you can say it's a race design. One thing though is that one of the terran weakness is its production buildings. Maybe giving less health to these building to emphasize the weakness might be worth a try and -I don't know- maybe also give a buff to bunker health to help defend wall bust (because weakening these buildings may have an impact on early all-in). I mean how about countering the endless stream of MMMM with a slightly easier way to cut it short ? | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:06 submarine wrote: Yeah right, if I as terran lose a mineral line I just call down a few mules and everything is even again. If a terran with 65 scvs and 3 OCs loses 20 scvs he loses 26% of his income If a zerg with 77 drones loses 20 drones he also loses 26% of his income The difference is: Zerg can rebuild those 20 workers a lot faster. It could just be me (it's not) but at a certain point I start stockpiling scans for various reasons. If 5-6 banelings roll into my 3rds mineral line and wipes it out, I can generally drop 4-5 or even more mules instantly and then have the same or more economy as a zerg. If I drop 8 marines and wipe out 20 drones yes he can potentially remake them instantly assuming he's floating 1k minerals and has 20 larva, but then he can't remake anything for the next 30 seconds, his income is considerably worse then the terrans for 20+ seconds, and then it snowballs. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 26 2013 22:55 bo1b wrote: The real problem isn't scans, it's that mules can both scale up a terrans income stupidly beyond anything a zerg or protoss can match, and then later on they can rely on mules as a buffer for a while if they lose a mineral line. It makes harassing the economy of a terran almost pointless past the point where they no longer build scvs. Terran can't replenish 200/200 army instantly, so mules kinda make up for protoss' warpin and zerg's larva inject. The problem is... in certain game scenarios (chaotic or baserace) mules (along with building lift up) give some advantage to terrans. But I think its a minor issue, the bigger problem is tvz's midgame, which is basically a slow and painful death of zergs. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:15 saddaromma wrote: Terran can't replenish 200/200 army instantly, so mules kinda make up for protoss' warpin and zerg's larva inject. The problem is... in certain game scenarios (chaotic or baserace) mules (along with building lift up) give some advantage to terrans. But I think its a minor issue, the bigger problem is tvz's midgame, which is basically a slow and painful death of zergs. A lot of the strength of the parade push style tvz is that it doesn't really allow zerg to stock pile larva. Doesn't mean that larva inject can't lead to stupid situations. | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:11 PPN wrote: VayneAuthority> Scan is not an unit, but it is a real ressource in the sense that you're not sending a mule instead. Scan is not a resource but my god, neither is a MULE. A Mule is not wroth 270 minerals it will merely give you 270 minerals faster than usual. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:20 Prog455 wrote: Scan is not a resource but my god, neither is a MULE. A Mule is not wroth 270 minerals it will merely give you 270 minerals faster than usual. Mules are a very real resource. It allowed taeja to comeback vs Nestea in the ipltac despite having fuck all scvs, and then later allowed him to mine more minerals per minute then a zerg maxed out on drones could mine. | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
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Jer99
Canada8157 Posts
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:23 bo1b wrote: Mules are a very real resource. It allowed taeja to comeback vs Nestea in the ipltac despite having fuck all scvs, and then later allowed him to mine more minerals per minute then a zerg maxed out on drones could mine. So would you say that scans never make a difference? My point was that MULEs aren't more of a resource than scan, in that sense it won't add netvalue to your army or your infrastructure. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:35 Jer99 wrote: We don't have the capability to produce nearly as many harvesters as zerg or protoss can due to chrono boost and larva inject, so we heavily rely on not using scans to clear anything that needs detection and instead need mules to keep up the income that Z/P get The problem is that it is done in such a short sighted fashion. If that was all the purpose of the mule was for surely it would be better to have an option to turn energy into scvs, or to provide a buff to the mining rate of scvs in an area, or just something which wouldn't lower the impact of harassing an economy line and later on assured terrans the ability to outproduce both zerg and protoss, and then sac scvs to have an insanely large army. | ||
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