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On August 26 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 20:15 LSN wrote:On August 26 2013 20:12 NarutO wrote:
Sure, Terran needs to build 2 fusion cores to get 3-3, also 13 ebays to build a turret and 34 barracks to build a factory. Naruto, you are of the opinion that TvZ is all fine. I am not and most other people are not too. A fusion core is 150/150. Maybe the price of fusion cores could be reduced to 100/150 or 100/200 with such a change so it is 4 marines less for being able to make 2x lvl3 upgrades for bio. This wouldnt be a too bad deal for terran at all and at the same time start to fix some of the terran needs not to worry about gas in TvZ issues at least. Z needs hive before being able to 3-3 which is a much more costy switch from muta/ling/bane still. For what reason terran doesnt need anything for their 3-3 bio? We need an armory to upgrade 2-2. Zergs need a lair which is needed to begin with. Going up to hive isn't really that much extra units either, having 3 less mutas is not going to make a difference, having 3-3 is. So you can decide having 3 more mutas and all your units lacking behind in upgrades or having 3 less while all your ground forces gain additional upgrades. Terran isn't all that cheap in terms of gas either. Its right that its CHEAPER than Zerg, but if you believe Terran doesn't need gas at all you are wrong. What makes it 'cheap/cheaper' is the fact that the likes of INnoVation rarely lose medivacs / mines. Bomber on the other hand for example (vs Scarlett) lost tons of shit. Terran vs Zerg has the broodwar-synergie for Terran. Gasheavy (Medivacs+Mines (275 every 40~ seconds) have good synergy and support function to our mineral heavy (marines) style. Its the same with Marine Tank and when Marine/Tank was played, no one did question the value of ressources in Terrans favor. Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals.
I can't understand your point. In TvZ, terran trades minerals for gas, its common accepted fact. Losing bunch of medivacs and mines doesn't justify to say that terran trades gas. Terran never needs to saturate gas in all his bases (2 or 3 is enough). Therefore landing a CC and 5-6 mules is quite enough to provide healthy MMM production, whereas gas is prime resource for zerg. And there are no easy ways to replenish it for them.
In all honesty I lost any faith in blizzard. or david kim must I say. He'll never listen to us. And +50 health to Ultras??? Are you kidding me. wtf is wrong with him?
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On August 26 2013 20:58 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:On August 26 2013 20:15 LSN wrote:On August 26 2013 20:12 NarutO wrote:
Sure, Terran needs to build 2 fusion cores to get 3-3, also 13 ebays to build a turret and 34 barracks to build a factory. Naruto, you are of the opinion that TvZ is all fine. I am not and most other people are not too. A fusion core is 150/150. Maybe the price of fusion cores could be reduced to 100/150 or 100/200 with such a change so it is 4 marines less for being able to make 2x lvl3 upgrades for bio. This wouldnt be a too bad deal for terran at all and at the same time start to fix some of the terran needs not to worry about gas in TvZ issues at least. Z needs hive before being able to 3-3 which is a much more costy switch from muta/ling/bane still. For what reason terran doesnt need anything for their 3-3 bio? We need an armory to upgrade 2-2. Zergs need a lair which is needed to begin with. Going up to hive isn't really that much extra units either, having 3 less mutas is not going to make a difference, having 3-3 is. So you can decide having 3 more mutas and all your units lacking behind in upgrades or having 3 less while all your ground forces gain additional upgrades. Terran isn't all that cheap in terms of gas either. Its right that its CHEAPER than Zerg, but if you believe Terran doesn't need gas at all you are wrong. What makes it 'cheap/cheaper' is the fact that the likes of INnoVation rarely lose medivacs / mines. Bomber on the other hand for example (vs Scarlett) lost tons of shit. Terran vs Zerg has the broodwar-synergie for Terran. Gasheavy (Medivacs+Mines (275 every 40~ seconds) have good synergy and support function to our mineral heavy (marines) style. Its the same with Marine Tank and when Marine/Tank was played, no one did question the value of ressources in Terrans favor. Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals. I can't understand your point. In TvZ, terran trades minerals for gas, its common accepted fact. Losing bunch of medivacs and mines doesn't justify to say that terran trades gas. Terran never needs to saturate gas in all his bases (2 or 3 is enough). Therefore landing a CC and 5-6 mules is quite enough to provide healthy MMM production, whereas gas is prime resource for zerg. And there are no easy ways to replenish it for them. In all honesty I lost any faith in blizzard. or david kim must I say. He'll never listen to us. And +50 health to Ultras??? Are you kidding me. wtf is wrong with him?
Yes I agree that you didn't understand my point. Maybe you should re-read. Also I am willing to offrace vs you as Zerg with you as Terran only getting 3 gas. (in case you meant bases, thats 4-6 gas for you and I agree that Terran doesn't need more than 6 gas ever) I am willing to say not only cannot you support 2-2 medivacs and mines, but you will also be delayed as hell. 
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No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well
edit : ninja'd
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On August 26 2013 21:01 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 20:58 saddaromma wrote:On August 26 2013 20:43 NarutO wrote:On August 26 2013 20:15 LSN wrote:On August 26 2013 20:12 NarutO wrote:
Sure, Terran needs to build 2 fusion cores to get 3-3, also 13 ebays to build a turret and 34 barracks to build a factory. Naruto, you are of the opinion that TvZ is all fine. I am not and most other people are not too. A fusion core is 150/150. Maybe the price of fusion cores could be reduced to 100/150 or 100/200 with such a change so it is 4 marines less for being able to make 2x lvl3 upgrades for bio. This wouldnt be a too bad deal for terran at all and at the same time start to fix some of the terran needs not to worry about gas in TvZ issues at least. Z needs hive before being able to 3-3 which is a much more costy switch from muta/ling/bane still. For what reason terran doesnt need anything for their 3-3 bio? We need an armory to upgrade 2-2. Zergs need a lair which is needed to begin with. Going up to hive isn't really that much extra units either, having 3 less mutas is not going to make a difference, having 3-3 is. So you can decide having 3 more mutas and all your units lacking behind in upgrades or having 3 less while all your ground forces gain additional upgrades. Terran isn't all that cheap in terms of gas either. Its right that its CHEAPER than Zerg, but if you believe Terran doesn't need gas at all you are wrong. What makes it 'cheap/cheaper' is the fact that the likes of INnoVation rarely lose medivacs / mines. Bomber on the other hand for example (vs Scarlett) lost tons of shit. Terran vs Zerg has the broodwar-synergie for Terran. Gasheavy (Medivacs+Mines (275 every 40~ seconds) have good synergy and support function to our mineral heavy (marines) style. Its the same with Marine Tank and when Marine/Tank was played, no one did question the value of ressources in Terrans favor. Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals. I can't understand your point. In TvZ, terran trades minerals for gas, its common accepted fact. Losing bunch of medivacs and mines doesn't justify to say that terran trades gas. Terran never needs to saturate gas in all his bases (2 or 3 is enough). Therefore landing a CC and 5-6 mules is quite enough to provide healthy MMM production, whereas gas is prime resource for zerg. And there are no easy ways to replenish it for them. In all honesty I lost any faith in blizzard. or david kim must I say. He'll never listen to us. And +50 health to Ultras??? Are you kidding me. wtf is wrong with him? Yes I agree that you didn't understand my point. Maybe you should re-read. Also I am willing to offrace vs you as Zerg with you as Terran only getting 3 gas. (in case you meant bases, thats 4-6 gas for you) I am willing to say not only cannot you support 2-2 medivacs and mines, but you will also be delayed as hell.
I strongly believe that balance only matters at top level. Sadly we won't be able to provide that level of game no matter how hard we try. So, no, thank you.
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On August 26 2013 21:05 VieuxSinge wrote:
No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well
I said in 2-3 bases. Which is 4-6 gas geisers.
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On August 26 2013 21:06 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:05 VieuxSinge wrote:
No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well I said in 2-3 bases. Which is 4-6 gas geisers.
So? Different race, different design. You said it yourself. Important to Terran: minerals | important to Zerg: gas
We trade minerals vs Gas, so we both lose ressources important to us. There is no advantage being less-gas dependant as we gain nothing from it. Zerg has access to more gas earlier so they can make use of it.
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I think the game is in general to fast paced. In general it would be good not to reach 200/200 so fast, not to reach max upgrades so fast etc. For zerg it is working out well, at least on the upgrade side, as hive is a big step to do. The problem is not that zerg can go to hive and build a few units less, the problem is that terran doesnt have to do it. Minerals are much less scarce than gas, especially with mules that can all be dropped on one base. All these mechanics make it almost impossible to damage a terran cost efficiently in the course of the game before one of the players is doing the killing blow.
btw: Saying to be dependent on minerals, including the mule mechanic is no advantage instead of gas, what is zerg, is pure terran bias. It is in fact a big disadvantage for Z. If zergs lose one gas base they cant keep up with terran anymore. If terrans ever lose a base vs a zerg they just drop mules elsewhere, but it anyway barely happens. Why does it barely happen? Because it is not cost efficient to attack terran expansions that have little defense set up because if you crush it the mules will get dropped elsewhere and you lose a bunch of units usually and get just killed. In contrast it is quite cost efficient for terran to attack wherever and whenever he can. Losing a few marines doesn't compare to what potential damage can be and frequently is done.
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On August 26 2013 21:08 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:06 saddaromma wrote:On August 26 2013 21:05 VieuxSinge wrote:
No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well I said in 2-3 bases. Which is 4-6 gas geisers. So? Different race, different design. You said it yourself. Important to Terran: minerals | important to Zerg: gas We trade minerals vs Gas, so we both lose ressources important to us. There is no advantage being less-gas dependant as we gain nothing from it. Zerg has access to more gas earlier so they can make use of it.
Your words: "Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals."
I merely pointed that its actually true that zerg trades gas for minerals, which you were calling void. Now you talk otherwise.
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On August 26 2013 21:10 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:08 NarutO wrote:On August 26 2013 21:06 saddaromma wrote:On August 26 2013 21:05 VieuxSinge wrote:
No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well I said in 2-3 bases. Which is 4-6 gas geisers. So? Different race, different design. You said it yourself. Important to Terran: minerals | important to Zerg: gas We trade minerals vs Gas, so we both lose ressources important to us. There is no advantage being less-gas dependant as we gain nothing from it. Zerg has access to more gas earlier so they can make use of it. Your words: "Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals."I merely pointed that its actually true that zerg trades gas for minerals, which you were calling void. Now you talk otherwise.
I said his argument is void that Zerg DIES due to that. Zerg doesn't die because they value Gas while Terrans value minerals. They die when the trades are not cost-efficient by a large margin.
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On August 26 2013 21:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:10 saddaromma wrote:On August 26 2013 21:08 NarutO wrote:On August 26 2013 21:06 saddaromma wrote:On August 26 2013 21:05 VieuxSinge wrote:
No terran needs at least 5 gaz (2 in the main, 2 in the natural and 1 on the third), see polt TvZ for example. While it's not much compared to zerg, saying lies like "terran only needs 2 or 3 gas derpy derp" won't lead anywhere.
I feel like zerg is doing fine at pro level, but not at the very top10. This could be justified by the high skill cap terran has. Zerg could need some minor buff; The overseer buff is good, maybe reducing the hatching time for banelings will do as well I said in 2-3 bases. Which is 4-6 gas geisers. So? Different race, different design. You said it yourself. Important to Terran: minerals | important to Zerg: gas We trade minerals vs Gas, so we both lose ressources important to us. There is no advantage being less-gas dependant as we gain nothing from it. Zerg has access to more gas earlier so they can make use of it. Your words: "Just because Terrans value Minerals more than gas, just makes your argument about "Zerg is trading gas vs minerals" void, as the critical ressource for Terran is actually not gas, but minerals."I merely pointed that its actually true that zerg trades gas for minerals, which you were calling void. Now you talk otherwise. I said his argument is void that Zerg DIES due to that. Zerg doesn't die because they value Gas while Terrans value minerals. They die when the trades are not cost-efficient by a large margin.
Many zergs are trading cost-innefeciently lately. Maybe its due to imbalance? Or are terrans just better players?
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I think the biggest thing in TvZ right now is that bio mine offers a constant stream of pressure while gaining cost efficiency throughout the game. Part of this can be attributed to medivac speed boost making it easier to save medivacs. Zergs cost efficiency got pushed back with the infestor role change towards a more supportive role making it difficult to rely on pumping out a ton of winfestors. The holy infestor,queen,ultra trinity is incredibly potent when utilized properly, but the transition is difficult because of the time you need to build energy and save that gas.
I think that setting a timer for bio play by buffing the ultra is an interesting idea, but that transition is the most problematic.
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well the gas mechanic is a huge one for terran. It does not only allow terran to use less SCVs on gas production and use less assimilators but also a huge bank of gas allows the terran to switch to whatever gas heavy units he wants in the endgame, no matter what happened before. Thus ravens is a cheap and effective techswitch that terrans still don't consider enaugh - because its actually not needed yet. 40 Mutalisk play of scarlet would give a good use for ravens actually.
This is also for sure not working as intended. In a strategy game where 2 ressources are provided and one of the three races does rely on only one in one certain matchup, it can be defenitely considered broken.
What you all forget about, naruto, is that Z also needs alot of minerals, not only gas. So it is not like Z needs only gas and terran needs only minerals. Z needs alot of minerals for unit production as well but terran barely needs gas for bio/mine rally play. This is why a single medivac drop can throw a zerg out of the game completely (not cause of the gas, but cause of the lost minerals). In contrast, harrassing the terran mineral economy with e.g. banelings is cost inefficient and throws the Z back more than the terran most of the times. Mutalisk defense is quite easy and usually established (MMA does not need it tho) when Z ever tries to harrass with mutalisks. Also mutalisks cant easily be moved out of position because then you are lacking drop defense and your ling/bane alone might not be able to stop a terran engagement.
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Regarding TvZ:
I am a high ranked Master Terran.
While watching tournaments it feels like the TvZ matchup just aint fair at the moment at the highest level. My own winratio goes around 50-55%. Mostly because my macro slips a bit during battles and I know I aint doing the perfect endless pushes as many Terrans are able to do.
Problem in TvZ:
At the highest level it seems to be extremly hard for the Zergs to handle the 3/3 upgrades from Terran.
What do Zerg need to do better?
I think Zerg needs to use their Mutas a lot better with Scarlett as an example of extremly good Muta-play. Her creep spread allows her to constantly be in the Terrans face with Mutalisk and have full knowledge of when to pull them pack.
Compare her to Jaedong who never crossed the maps with his Mutas, using them as a flying DPS-unit and the difference is quite obvious.
What can be done balance wise?
Widow Mines is in my opinion supposed to be more of a defensive unit rather then the offensive weapon it is in TvZ right now. I suggest that Widow Mines Burrows and Unborrows a lot Slower while they are on creep. This would push Zerg players to spread creep more activley and reward those who are good at it. It would also make it harder for Terran to walk out on Creep and instant burrow mines.
Still, the mines would be as good defensivle as they were before.
I have not thought of exact stats.
Also I consider it to be weird Zerg cannot reach Hive from Spire-tech.
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The idea is good, but mines usually dont get burrowed on creep anyway, because the Z then sees them. Terrans usually also dont engage on creep but clear creep up and then engage. In some engagement it can matter tho, if terran wants to engage on creep (what they actually dont). It wont change too much I am afraid
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On August 26 2013 21:31 LSN wrote:
The idea is good, but mines usually dont get burrowed on creep anyway, because the Z then sees them. Terrans usually also dont engage on creep but clear creep up and then engage. In some engagement it can matter tho, if terran wants to engage on creep (what they actually dont). It wont change too much I am afraid
Id say alost every engagenment in Bomber vs Jaedong was taking place on creep.
Bomber macroed up to almost 200 supply and pushed out vs Jaedong who had all time in the world to spread creep without any kind of interference from Bomber. In game one and two, they only fought on creep.
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Glorfindel, I remember CatZ talking about that specific thing on an early episode of the meta. He simply suggested removing drilling claws
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On August 26 2013 21:35 Jaigar wrote:
Glorfindel, I remember CatZ talking about that specific thing on an early episode of the meta. He simply suggested removing drilling claws
I dont know if removing the upgrade is needed if its ability to work on creep is changed. But yeah, removing it is a step in the same direction I am thinking. However that would effect all the three matchups and the work of defensive mines (even though they are hardly used outside of TvZ).
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wouldn't mind seeing an hp nerf on widow mines either, 90 or whatever they have is absurd. To compensate I'd give the ghost or viking (some late TvP unit) a small hp upgrade or something.
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It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran
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EPT
