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On August 26 2013 23:09 bo1b wrote:
There's an investment for sure, though in tvz getting a 3rd cc at 26 pays itself off super quickly and outside of a few roach bane all ins there really isn't a good way to punish it.
Frankly I find it pretty stupid that a 3cc build/3hatch build/3 nexus bulds are as common as they are, and I think it basically ruins the enjoyment of the game both to play and to watch. I think lower econ games are far more fun. I think watching a terran take probably the most greedy build possible then defend a roach bane all in is just silly. I think watching someone drop mules and then out produce a zerg who has another base then him silly.
I think a lot of things are silly tbh, probably why I play random.
Yeah, its a bit stupid, but honestly that type of balance lies on a razor's edge. Make it harder to defend greedy openers and you might end up with only all-in games, or you could end up with overly-safe play that's not very exciting.
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On August 26 2013 23:36 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:23 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2013 23:20 Prog455 wrote:On August 26 2013 23:11 PPN wrote:
VayneAuthority> Scan is not an unit, but it is a real ressource in the sense that you're not sending a mule instead.
Scan is not a resource but my god, neither is a MULE. A Mule is not wroth 270 minerals it will merely give you 270 minerals faster than usual. Mules are a very real resource. It allowed taeja to comeback vs Nestea in the ipltac despite having fuck all scvs, and then later allowed him to mine more minerals per minute then a zerg maxed out on drones could mine. So would you say that scans never make a difference? My point was that MULEs aren't more of a resource than scan, in that sense it won't add netvalue to your army or your infrastructure.
Of course scans are a resource. I disagree with anyone who says other wise. Might not be a limited resource but it's still a resource.
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Jer99> MULE more than allow to keep up with other races' eco, it allows terran's eco to surpass them actually. Just look at the income tab. But again I don't think it's an issue. It's ok to let it be as a race design. See my previous point :
On August 26 2013 23:11 PPN wrote:
VayneAuthority> Scan is not an unit, but it is a real ressource in the sense that you're not sending a mule instead.
bo1b> I do agree with the fact that harrassing terran eco seems far less effective than against other races. But you can say it's a race design. One thing though is that one of the terran weakness is its production buildings. Maybe giving less health to these building to emphasize the weakness might be worth a try and -I don't know- maybe also give a buff to bunker health to help defend wall bust (because weakening these buildings may have an impact on early all-in).
I mean how about countering the endless stream of MMMM with a slightly easier way to cut it short ?
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On August 26 2013 23:40 PPN wrote:Jer99> MULE more than allow to keep up with other races' eco, it allows terran's eco to surpass them actually. Just look at the income tab. But again I don't think it's an issue. It's ok to let it be as a race design. See my previous point : Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:11 PPN wrote:
VayneAuthority> Scan is not an unit, but it is a real ressource in the sense that you're not sending a mule instead.
bo1b> I do agree with the fact that harrassing terran eco seems far less effective than against other races. But you can say it's a race design. One thing though is that one of the terran weakness is its production buildings. Maybe giving less health to these building to emphasize the weakness might be worth a try and -I don't know- maybe also give a buff to bunker health to help defend wall bust (because weakening these buildings may have an impact on early all-in).
I mean how about countering the endless stream of MMMM with a slightly easier way to cut it short ?
It's not ok for it to be like that. That sort of balancing creates situations of massable units vs high tech units, which creates all sorts of issues.
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Prog455> Both scan and mule are ressources then even by your definition. Scan gives info and detection that you would otherwise have to pay with an unit scout sacrifice, a raven or a turret. Mule gives mineral earlier allowing you to build more units or have buildings earlier. But that's beside the point.
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Canada8157 Posts
That's only in the late stages of the game, and if you use burrowed units then i won't have the energy to even use mules
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On August 26 2013 23:36 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:23 bo1b wrote:On August 26 2013 23:20 Prog455 wrote:On August 26 2013 23:11 PPN wrote:
VayneAuthority> Scan is not an unit, but it is a real ressource in the sense that you're not sending a mule instead.
Scan is not a resource but my god, neither is a MULE. A Mule is not wroth 270 minerals it will merely give you 270 minerals faster than usual. Mules are a very real resource. It allowed taeja to comeback vs Nestea in the ipltac despite having fuck all scvs, and then later allowed him to mine more minerals per minute then a zerg maxed out on drones could mine. So would you say that scans never make a difference? My point was that MULEs aren't more of a resource than scan, in that sense it won't add netvalue to your army or your infrastructure.
Scans are a very real resource, but only one that minimizes losses (by being able to take out that DT, creep tumor, Benling mine OR not being surprised by the opponents tech switch or army position). Due to the defensive nature people often disregard the importance of scans, but as the saying goes "a dollar saved is a dollar gained" it can add up to wayy more than any MULE can gather. You only need to save 6 Marines from a Baneling mine duo ...
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Canada8157 Posts
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away
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On August 26 2013 23:40 PPN wrote:
Jer99> MULE more than allow to keep up with other races' eco, it allows terran's eco to surpass them actually. Just look at the income tab. But again I don't think it's an issue. It's ok to let it be as a race design.
This view is skewed, since the income tab is often pulled up when the casters/observer notices that a lot of MULEs have been dropped.
A single MULE mines at the same rate as 3-4 SCVs and lasts for approximately the same time you need to regenerate 50 energy on the OC, so with 3 Orbitals, that's 9-12 SCVs worth of income you have thanks to MULEs if you use all your energy on them. Both Z and P should be able to get 10 workers ahead of a T in a 3-base situation if they allocate their larva/CB to worker-production.
Whenever you see crazy income spikes for Terran, they just dropped considerably more MULEs than they have Orbitals, so they were banking energy instead of having "perfect MULE macro". In the periods between, income is much lower, but you don't see those moments on stream nearly as often. The situation is made even more pronounced late-game, when T adds more Orbitals and sacrifices SCVs. After some energy has been banked, a massive MULE drop makes it seem like T has off-the-charts income, but if you average it out over a longer period of time, it's very much comparable to his P or Z opponent.
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Canada8157 Posts
I would honestly love to see terrans without mules, see how they would compare to the other income potentials of the other races
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On August 26 2013 23:49 Jer99 wrote:
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away Because it's right there, where the Z needs to get new tech out. You don't want to delay mutalisks even a second, if you don't have to. Banelings mines are amazing when they hit, but they are no widow mines - you can't rely on them. If the terran simply scans or walks past them, they're wasted resource. It is easier to try to get a perfect engagement with rolling banelings than using your thoughts on making bmines.
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On August 26 2013 23:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 21:45 NarutO wrote:
It will result in the same problems as tankplay has. Lacking mobility. Being out of position is easy and retreat nearly impossible because before they burrow they will be dead as is your army. I for my part would love having them removed for the sake of buffing marine tank but we all know that aint happening.
The mines are Terrans only midgame initiative and having mines burrow 3 seconds in such a fast paced game will once again favor the fast moving swarmy zergs. Widowmines can be one shotted from mutas when burrowed before they can trigger. Ofcourse thats a big risk but my only suggestion I can see working is having the mine not splash air or only splash air in low amounts without killing a unit. After that mutas would not take such a risk in their micro vs mines. What we have to see then is how offensive big muta balls would be handled from Terran Personally I think too many people are totally uncreative and try the same methods for everything. People try to win by killing the enemy army ... which is ridiculously bad against a constantly reproduced swarm of mines and Marines as we saw Bomber demonstrate excellently. To actually make progress a player would have to win decisively AND then rush towards the base of the Terran to do "real damage" ... but that never happens and is halted by the endless train of rebuilt mines and Marines. Soooo ... a different approach to the game is necessary. I tried to explain this a few weeks back, but it kinda fell on some deaf ears. The correct way to deal with the Terran is to do what Terrans have done to Zergs a lot ... HARRASS THEM, but dont go for the economy ... go for the production instead, because Terrans need to build a crapton of buildings to get that production. Bomber needs at least 8 Barracks to get his constant "15 Marine cycle" and 7 of them need Reactors. A reactor takes a shitton of time to build and has only few hit points. Zerg nowadays are too accustomed to "go economy" and they simply dont realize that this allows the Terran to get up his production. So something must be changed ... Do something before that and be aggressive ... especially on large maps! Every tool in the arsenal is needed too and a few underused are: - Baneling mines (get this early and get a clump of Marines and your Terran opponent will become paranoid AND might scan more than is good for him)
- Baneling carpet bombing ... This is exciting to watch AND you could either go for those soft Reactors OR the SCVs. It should force a lot of things to be built and this means units cant really be built. If you dont force those missile turrets you basically allow the Terran to build more Marines or Barracks ... which is bad.
- Nydus Worm ... just use it as Protoss use an advance Pylon ... for faster assault and withdraw moves. If you can get a Queen through for a Tumor or two its going to be even better.
- Overlord drops ... just try to get a decent combination of Roaches and Zerglings/Banelings to take down some Reactors. They take a long time to build and during that time the building cant produce anything. That should be worth 2-3 Overlords full of them ... and if he burrows some mines in his base as defense against the next drop they arent at the front to fight your army. Alternatively he will build missile turrets, which have to be paid for as well.
The whole point is to make the Terran spend his resources on "other stuff" and to make him waste scans on looking for Baneling mines which might be there or which might not be there. Obviously you should burrow them OFF CREEP so he doesnt get the tumors "for free" together with the scan. Due to the MULE the bottleneck for the Terran is NEVER minerals. Due to the structure of the production the bottleneck for the Terran is his production buildings (including the addons). Disrupt this BEFORE it gets too strong and wayyy before the Terran starts building extra OCs for endless MULE/scan energy! That is just as broken as the Infestor was ... but it cant be fixed.
The point you brought about harassing production line of Terran is true. However, I wouldn't believe your solution is viable as they are easily hard countered by Terran.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 26 2013 23:49 Jer99 wrote:
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away
Burrow is really good upgrade with nice utility in form of maphack, as Soulkey have shown us. Yet baneling mines are really attention dependent, because you have to catch middle of pack for it to be really effective. Forgot about 'em and mines lose utility and you die because those 2 banelings were not with army /sarcasm .
Also, @Rabiator's suggestion of going for production. Okay, how many lings you think someone should dedicate to kill reactors and do not get completely cleaned up by 10+ marines from production cycle? I won't count overlord drop upgrade as it is 'only' 2 mutas or 8 banelings. Nydus worm as pylon? Well, unlike pylon it costs gas, should i say more? And no, since it only loads units 1 by 1 (and unloads so) it is worse way to get out than running away on move command. While i am at it: buff Nydus worm (removing gas requirement could be a good start /sarcasm), make it only spawnable on creep. Nydus all-ins kinda nerfed, nydus defensive utility kinda buffed.
P. S.
Some math: IIRC typical parade push is double-digit marine, 3 mines and 2 med-vs per production cycle, right? So to produce only this (neglecting production and upgrades) you need around 400 gas per minute (IIRC it is approximately gas income from 4 gases, since i remember that from 10 geysers you get 1,1k gas income).
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Decrease mine splash damage.
Tanks are too immobile, so I see that mines are important for T to have in TvZ, but they are too devastatingly effective at the moment, imo. If the splash damage was slightly reduced (not the target damage), for example instead of killing 12 zerglings they killed 8 and damaged 4, mines would still be super effective but there would be less tendency for 1 shot to change everything. It would help zerg retain just a couple lings/banes (units with low hp, i.e. units where mine damage is a high proportion of total health), and wouldn't really mess up the role of mines in other situations.
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Canada8157 Posts
Have you ever ran into a terrans main base and attacked their buildings with lings? Ever notice how the marines don't actually attack while they rally to somewhere stupid while your lings eat away at them? Odds are too that the 10+ marines don't spawn at the exact same time at the exact same place so your lings just kill them as they spawn.
And you are forgetting about upgrades and other infrastructure that costs gas, so it takes much more like 6 geysers to keep that production up
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On August 26 2013 23:59 juusoko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 23:49 Jer99 wrote:
I honestly don't see why zergs are not investing into burrowed banelings every game they play, its such a cheap upgrade and forces either a scan or ravens out of terran, and if not then it has the potential to end the game right away Because it's right there, where the Z needs to get new tech out. You don't want to delay mutalisks even a second, if you don't have to. Banelings mines are amazing when they hit, but they are no widow mines - you can't rely on them. If the terran simply scans or walks past them, they're wasted resource. It is easier to try to get a perfect engagement with rolling banelings than using your thoughts on making bmines.
No one forces you to stop anything Mutalisk related ... just build four Banelings less than you would and you have the cost of the upgrade. The advantage of forcing scans, being able to save Drones harrassed by a drop, hidden scouts where they dont think you have one and burrow-micro is just sooo big that I am kinda surprised Zerg find it "unnecessary" and "not worth the resources".
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On August 27 2013 00:05 SecondSandwich wrote:
Decrease mine splash damage.
Tanks are too immobile, so I see that mines are important for T to have in TvZ, but they are too devastatingly effective at the moment, imo. If the splash damage was slightly reduced (not the target damage), for example instead of killing 12 zerglings they killed 8 and damaged 4, mines would still be super effective but there would be less tendency for 1 shot to change everything. It would help zerg retain just a couple lings/banes (units with low hp, i.e. units where mine damage is a high proportion of total health), and wouldn't really mess up the role of mines in other situations.
Tanks arent too immobile ... they deal crappy damage to light and thus they scare no one .... not even Zerglings.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 00:08 Jer99 wrote:
Have you ever ran into a terrans main base and attacked their buildings with lings? Ever notice how the marines don't actually attack while they rally to somewhere stupid while your lings eat away at them? Odds are too that the 10+ marines don't spawn at the exact same time at the exact same place so your lings just kill them as they spawn.
And you are forgetting about upgrades and other infrastructure that costs gas, so it takes much more like 6 geysers to keep that production up
Odds are that terran with good reaction will make sure his marines will not waste time walking all the way to other side of map before attacking. And then again, how many lings? Do not forget, that usually zerg has that little annoying army in form of 30+ marines with 5+ medivacs and 5+ mines to deal with too.
Infrastructure and upgrades are 1-time thing, hence i was not counting 'em for gas that marine-mine-medivac rally eats. Ofc if i will remember times on upgrades (3-3 220, 2-2 190 1-1 160, right?) and their costs then we will have that if we do not count armory upgrades eat (in total) around 120 gas per minute aka gas from 5 geysers for 8 minutes. With infrastructure if form of 2 factories, 1 starport, 8 or so reactors and 2 tech labs (right?) + armory we get even more gas, but then again, it is 1-time(!) thing, unless terran somehow lets bunch of mutas in his base (well, it is possible, true that). See, once infrastructure is built and upgrades are done terran has overhead of around 200 gas per minute from 6 geysers.
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Zerg will always be able to be greedier than Terran and get a better income before 3 base saturation (12 mins typically), after that Terran will often have to save energy for scans, and muling is often counter productive on 3 fully saturated bases since the production is limited typically to production facilities available. Full 6 gase income is required until the 15 minute mark typically, in order to get 2nd factory and upgrades.
Instead of trying to kill scvs, Zerg needs to aim to deny fourth, and trying banelings for a fully mining CC is definitely worth it. It is incredibly difficult for Terran to stop a baneling train rolling into a base, particular at the fourth since it's usually a planetary.
Also, once muta are out, a lot of the fourth is an easy snipe if the marines are even slightly out of position.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 27 2013 00:19 Lock0n wrote:
Zerg will always be able to be greedier than Terran and get a better income before 3 base saturation (12 mins typically), after that Terran will often have to save energy for scans, and muling is often counter productive on 3 fully saturated bases since the production is limited typically to production facilities available. Full 6 gase income is required until the 15 minute mark typically, in order to get 2nd factory and upgrades.
Instead of trying to kill scvs, Zerg needs to aim to deny fourth, and trying banelings for a fully mining CC is definitely worth it. It is incredibly difficult for Terran to stop a baneling train rolling into a base, particular at the fourth since it's usually a planetary.
Also, once muta are out, a lot of the fourth is an easy snipe if the marines are even slightly out of position.
Point about denying fourth is good, but underneath it lies that zerg somehow dealt with 4M rally already. Care to elaborate  ? Also, not many people have 20 spare banelings. For one guy those 20 banelings lost him the game (Savage vs Innovation, when Savage butchered good portion of his army to kill Inno's 4th, then he died to counter-attack).
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