EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 702
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
E: teamgames have a lot more problems than just WM and while it's hard to balance 1v1, teamgames are just much much harder to balance. it's also that the level of competetion is lower than for 1v1. Also: 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4, which league? are you playing RT or AT? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Or maybe we need to do away with the concept of an easier 3rd? Or even the concept of an easy natural base? | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:03 Hryul wrote: sorry pal, but teamgames are off the chart. E: teamgames have a lot more problems than just WM and while it's hard to balance 1v1, teamgames are just much much harder to balance. it's also that the level of competetion is lower than for 1v1. Also: 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4, which league? are you playing RT or AT? i was playing RT 4v4 masters NA server (lulz) and yes i realize team games are a worthless measure, but i was still topping the units killed chart every game with only widow mines (largely because i was obliterating unattended armies). They are still extremely powerful in TvZ atm 1v1, especially against banelings/lings. We haven't seen much blinding cloud from korean pros so maybe it is good enough to combat widow mines, I'm not sure... but having blinding cloud disrupt widow mine range seems like a reasonable change to me. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 17 2013 23:06 Grumbels wrote: Keep in mind that if you were to ask TL if they would like to have a Designated Balance Discussion Thread they would not want to allow it. This thread exists because someone asked Chill, who is a moderator with a lot of history here, but is also kind of outside the general 'TL command structure'. And while you could say that a design thread would devolve into BWvsSC2 discussion, you could use the same argument to claim that a balance thread would devolve into balance whining. I think there is interesting discussion here, not every post avoids direct balance whining, but I don't think this thread is somehow a blemish on TL's resume. I agree completely. Sometimes this thread has very useful and constructive discussion, and it is actually interesting to read debates between well-reasoned people. Now I think the most common issue in the last few pages has been Widow Mines in TvZ. Then Rab comes in and says no no no, the real problem is that units clump up too much meaning everything is skewed and we should implement less intelligent AI so the units walk funny and clump less. I have to wonder if that truly adds to the discussion, or if it is starting a new discussion entirely? I do understand the mod's decision to contain all design-related and balance-related stuff to one thread though. I would hate to be reading some random SC2 General thread to see tons of posts about the fundamental design of BW... Honestly, Rab says I'm too focused on units and match-ups, but in reality, I'm discussing the game's balance. Rab is not talking about the game's balance... he is talking about making a new game altogether. Let's call it SCBW2. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:21 Entirety wrote: I agree completely. Sometimes this thread has very useful and constructive discussion, and it is actually interesting to read debates between well-reasoned people. Now I think the most common issue in the last few pages has been Widow Mines in TvZ. Then Rab comes in and says no no no, the real problem is that units clump up too much meaning everything is skewed and we should implement less intelligent AI so the units walk funny and clump less. I have to wonder if that truly adds to the discussion, or if it is starting a new discussion entirely? I do understand the mod's decision to contain all design-related and balance-related stuff to one thread though. I would hate to be reading some random SC2 General thread to see tons of posts about the fundamental design of BW... Honestly, Rab says I'm too focused on units and match-ups, but in reality, I'm discussing the game's balance. Rab is not talking about the game's balance... he is talking about making a new game altogether. Let's call it SCBW2. in wc3 there was a toggle that made the units spread out or clump up. I always wondered why that feature wasn't in sc2 to be honest, seems like it would be a good idea | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:13 dutchfriese wrote: i was playing RT 4v4 masters NA server (lulz) and yes i realize team games are a worthless measure, but i was still topping the units killed chart every game with only widow mines (largely because i was obliterating unattended armies). They are still extremely powerful in TvZ atm 1v1, especially against banelings/lings. We haven't seen much blinding cloud from korean pros so maybe it is good enough to combat widow mines, I'm not sure... but having blinding cloud disrupt widow mine range seems like a reasonable change to me. well as far as I see it the problem in TvZ stems from the time prehive, where mostly Ling/bling/muta is used to survive the onslaught of 4M. I'm not sure if a buff at Hive is solving this problem. It also has some concerning synergies with ultras who would hit shortly after blinding cloud. But then I'm terran so I don't know if that would really be a problem. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:39 Hryul wrote: well as far as I see it the problem in TvZ stems from the time prehive, where mostly Ling/bling/muta is used to survive the onslaught of 4M. I'm not sure if a buff at Hive is solving this problem. It also has some concerning synergies with ultras who would hit shortly after blinding cloud. But then I'm terran so I don't know if that would really be a problem. On that note, I heard David Kim say on the recent Climbing the Ladder episode that he thinks terran is favored in the late game versus zerg. Did anyone catch that and understand what he meant? I felt like it was an odd thing to say since I usually see ultralisks beating bio/mine as long as the two races go into the late game on equal footing. I don't think that David Kim was talking about raven transitions in the extreme late-game, but maybe he was talking about pre-hive timings and was counting them as late game. | ||
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:39 Hryul wrote: well as far as I see it the problem in TvZ stems from the time prehive, where mostly Ling/bling/muta is used to survive the onslaught of 4M. I'm not sure if a buff at Hive is solving this problem. It also has some concerning synergies with ultras who would hit shortly after blinding cloud. But then I'm terran so I don't know if that would really be a problem. it's fair point. I agree that a lot of pro zergs have been struggling recently because they fall behind on tech. Seems like they should be going to hive 3/3 ultra infestor no problems but maybe the parade push demands mass banelings at that moment. I play terran as well so i can't really offer perspective in defending against the marine widow mine push of fury. it's funny, when i first started playing WoL when it came out, every game i would go mass marines/medivacs. I called it stalin's fury, but now with widow mines it's the go to strategy in TvZ -_- | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:59 Grumbels wrote: On that note, I heard David Kim say on the recent Climbing the Ladder episode that he thinks terran is favored in the late game versus zerg. Did anyone catch that and understand what he meant? I felt like it was an odd thing to say since I usually see ultralisks beating bio/mine as long as the two races go into the late game on equal footing. I don't think that David Kim was talking about raven transitions in the extreme late-game, but maybe he was talking about pre-hive timings and was counting them as late game. or maybe the combination of mass drops + mules + pf + walloffs. it's impossible for zerg to have a stable income and keep expanding lategame cause drops. terran has unharassable bases, their army units can be used for extremely strong harassment, has crazy income even if its just 1 mining base. almost impossible to attack into walloffs. and their army can still stand up to zerg hive army pretty decently. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:59 Grumbels wrote: On that note, I heard David Kim say on the recent Climbing the Ladder episode that he thinks terran is favored in the late game versus zerg. Did anyone catch that and understand what he meant? I felt like it was an odd thing to say since I usually see ultralisks beating bio/mine as long as the two races go into the late game on equal footing. I don't think that David Kim was talking about raven transitions in the extreme late-game, but maybe he was talking about pre-hive timings and was counting them as late game. well if T and Z go even into lategame on basically every map except neoplanet T just denies creep which means no transfuses + kite ultras all day + doing mass drops since mutas are dead or not many left. most times you see bio + mine get crushed by ultras is either: lucky fungal or Z got ultras out vs marines + mines (basically no marauders). on equal footing T will have marauders out to do drops + countering ultras. ultras offcreep are really bad + 3 mines = 6 supply almost kills an ultra (not even counting splash) and are much cheaper. so his suggestion to maybe buff ultra hp might be good although i think the bigger problem right now is getting to hive on equal footing. lurker would be so awesome since a ground ranged and sustainable AoE unit vs mass opponent units is what Z is missing so much. maybe in LotV  | ||
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:08 Decendos wrote: well if T and Z go even into lategame on basically every map except neoplanet T just denies creep which means no transfuses + kite ultras all day + doing mass drops since mutas are dead or not many left. most times you see bio + mine get crushed by ultras is either: lucky fungal or Z got ultras out vs marines + mines (basically no marauders). on equal footing T will have marauders out to do drops + countering ultras. ultras offcreep are really bad + 3 mines = 6 supply almost kills an ultra (not even counting splash) and are much cheaper. so his suggestion to maybe buff ultra hp might be good although i think the bigger problem right now is getting to hive on equal footing. i have to agree. ultralisks off creep seem to be very weak vs their cost. Perhaps it's because no one has quite figured out how to micro them well but I've mused about the idea of maybe buffing ultralisk speed to around 3.1, that would be an interesting change i'd like to see tested. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On August 18 2013 00:36 Rabiator wrote: My posts are made to find ways to make balancing a) easier and b) far less necessary. Just think about the units in BW and compare them to the units in SC2; you might find that some of the old units were extremely powerful and bordering on the OP. That was TOTALLY FINE Example: BW Tanks can be OP, because Tanks are naturally mostly usable in a turtle-type of strategy. Because econ is slow (=max cap usually not reached) and scales well, you don't need to balance the Tank that accurately - the players can simply counter the turtle-type strategy by expanding to all the bases and going Sauron. Throw money at the problem and all that. Sauron is vulnerable to multipronged harassment, which itself has no teeth against turtling play. In SC2 that natural counter to turtle-type / deathball style play at the strategic factions-abstracted-away level doesn't exist - it's literally the optimal lategame strategy - so matters of fine-tuned composition balance in the endgame become paramount.The speed engagements happen at, making micro often even detrimental doesn't help. It is good we have new unit designs. It is good that doing basic things is easier - skill ceiling grognards can go die in a fire on that as far as I'm concerned. But the fundamental design needs to be sound. BWs isn't, necessarily. SC2's most certainly isn't. But there are places where BW is more sound in SC2, those things are implementable. And they should be. Because sound systems with system-level counters make balancing much less critical. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 18 2013 04:59 Grumbels wrote: On that note, I heard David Kim say on the recent Climbing the Ladder episode that he thinks terran is favored in the late game versus zerg. Did anyone catch that and understand what he meant? I felt like it was an odd thing to say since I usually see ultralisks beating bio/mine as long as the two races go into the late game on equal footing. I don't think that David Kim was talking about raven transitions in the extreme late-game, but maybe he was talking about pre-hive timings and was counting them as late game. Probably because when Z stops Lair tech into hive tech (ultras) he usually drops mutas too, which means if the T turtles and drops the Z cant expand and starves. Also, even with mutas it is difficult because they will be doing drops in many locations on opposite sides of the map. Static defense helps a bit to stall, but at times even that isnt enough since they hit with such frequency and efficiency that you may not have defense up in time for a followup drop. On August 18 2013 05:13 dutchfriese wrote: i have to agree. ultralisks off creep seem to be very weak vs their cost. Perhaps it's because no one has quite figured out how to micro them well but I've mused about the idea of maybe buffing ultralisk speed to around 3.1, that would be an interesting change i'd like to see tested. No, please do not buff ultralisks. Ultras are strong as it is. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:13 dutchfriese wrote: i have to agree. ultralisks off creep seem to be very weak vs their cost. Perhaps it's because no one has quite figured out how to micro them well but I've mused about the idea of maybe buffing ultralisk speed to around 3.1, that would be an interesting change i'd like to see tested. figuring out how to micro ultras? lol. they're a melee unit. there's no fancy micro you can do with melee units. melee units are INCREDIBLY bad at a game where you can select unlimited amounts of units. they gotta make up for that with super speed and damage (lings, chargelots) and in the case of ultras ridiculous amounts of HP and armor. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:08 Decendos wrote: well if T and Z go even into lategame on basically every map except neoplanet T just denies creep which means no transfuses + kite ultras all day + doing mass drops since mutas are dead or not many left. most times you see bio + mine get crushed by ultras is either: lucky fungal or Z got ultras out vs marines + mines (basically no marauders). on equal footing T will have marauders out to do drops + countering ultras. ultras offcreep are really bad + 3 mines = 6 supply almost kills an ultra (not even counting splash) and are much cheaper. so his suggestion to maybe buff ultra hp might be good although i think the bigger problem right now is getting to hive on equal footing. lurker would be so awesome since a ground ranged and sustainable AoE unit vs mass opponent units is what Z is missing so much. maybe in LotV What?? Ultralisks are already insanely beefy and spamming Transfuses results in ridiculous resilience. | ||
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:18 willstertben wrote: figuring out how to micro ultras? lol. they're a melee unit. there's no fancy micro you can do with melee units. melee units are INCREDIBLY bad at a game where you can select unlimited amounts of units. they gotta make up for that with super speed and damage (lings, chargelots) and in the case of ultras ridiculous amounts of HP and armor. you laugh at it and maybe that's the problem. You definitely need to micro every unit, melee or ranged, to maximize the efficiency of that unit. For lings and ultras it's paramount that they all attack at the same time or the potential dps they can do will be minimized/negated. now let's see... a skill exists that makes it possible for them to attack at the same time and maximize dps. I think it's called.... micro? yeah micro that's it. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On August 18 2013 05:22 TheDwf wrote: What?? Ultralisks are already insanely beefy and spamming Transfuses results in ridiculous resilience. DK said that as one possible buff to lategame Z. and yeah try transfusing offcreep + they get kited all day long and you cant defend drops. first and biggest problem: Z can reach hive on equal footing. second and smaller problem: Z can either build an army to deal with T mass medivac, mass mine army OR build an army to defend mass drops, both is really hard right now. but yeah would rather like DK fixing the first problem and then see how it works out. wont really mind buffing ultralisk hp since they are also useless in lategame ZvP (yes there are ultra based all ins but lategame ZvP is SHs or die right now which is extremely boring). | ||
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