|
On August 18 2013 07:00 Grumbels wrote:
I had the following idea for the ghost:
Snipe stuns units for 0.5s
I thought it would be useful for occasionally catching some ultralisks, corruptors, mutalisks and brood lords. There is an apm and energy requirement for using snipe, so it's not like you can actually use it for crowd control, so I don't think it's abusable.
I'm proposing this in the context of terran having a slight lack of options in dealing with ultralisks. The ghost isn't used to much in TvZ and TvT, so it seemed like a fun change to me.
That is an absolutely awful idea... High Templar trying to retreat? NOPE they are stunned. Terran also doesnt need late game help vZ.
Basically it's never harder for the already really slow high Templar to pull back, and overall limits micro for Zerg and Protoss when there is no need for it
|
dwf is right. you actually NEED 4 full base saturation for muta ling bling vs 3 base bio mine or you'll just get outproduced and die.
also you need a good bank for ultra transition, cause making 2-3 ultras is as good as making 0.
|
On August 18 2013 07:11 Dwayn wrote:
you don't get a lot out of saturating the 4 base fully, cause you really want the gas. 90 drones on 4 base just seems bad.
why?
In tvz, you trade units all the time. Bio/mine vs muta/ling/bane, its normal to trade alot
so why not have 90drones?
i as zerg love to have 90drones cuz you trade all the time, you keep attacking all the time
This is the mu as zerg, u want these many drones. Against protss thats a different story completely
|
On August 18 2013 07:36 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:00 Grumbels wrote:
I had the following idea for the ghost:
Snipe stuns units for 0.5s
I thought it would be useful for occasionally catching some ultralisks, corruptors, mutalisks and brood lords. There is an apm and energy requirement for using snipe, so it's not like you can actually use it for crowd control, so I don't think it's abusable.
I'm proposing this in the context of terran having a slight lack of options in dealing with ultralisks. The ghost isn't used to much in TvZ and TvT, so it seemed like a fun change to me. That is an absolutely awful idea... High Templar trying to retreat? NOPE they are stunned. Terran also doesnt need late game help vZ. Basically it's never harder for the already really slow high Templar to pull back, and overall limits micro for Zerg and Protoss when there is no need for it
But snipe already kills high templar very quickly, and it's only a 0.5s stun.
|
On August 18 2013 07:36 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:00 Grumbels wrote:
I had the following idea for the ghost:
Snipe stuns units for 0.5s
I thought it would be useful for occasionally catching some ultralisks, corruptors, mutalisks and brood lords. There is an apm and energy requirement for using snipe, so it's not like you can actually use it for crowd control, so I don't think it's abusable.
I'm proposing this in the context of terran having a slight lack of options in dealing with ultralisks. The ghost isn't used to much in TvZ and TvT, so it seemed like a fun change to me. That is an absolutely awful idea... High Templar trying to retreat? NOPE they are stunned. Terran also doesnt need late game help vZ. Basically it's never harder for the already really slow high Templar to pull back, and overall limits micro for Zerg and Protoss when there is no need for it
If your templar are being sniped they're not going to be able to retreat anyway. Any Terran who has the opportunity to snipe it once and run in to finish it off will just snipe it twice and not have to worry about it.
Certainly Terran doesn't really need lategame help TvZ, although since going for ghosts is a diversion from whatever else he'd be doing, it wouldn't necessarily make Terran late game more powerful. Right now ghosts are pretty much wasted money and supply late game TvZ. I'm not saying the change is great, or that it's likely to happen, but it's probably not game-breaking. Although shouldn't ultralisks be immune to an effect like that because of Frenzy anyway?
|
On August 18 2013 07:02 TheDwf wrote:Congratulations, it took you 12 minuts to watch a 32 minuts video! This is what I wrote: Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 05:48 TheDwf wrote:
Most of the time, when I face ultras, Zerg still has 15-25 mutas left. I didn't say Zerg was necessarily on 90 drones when it happens. If they suffered some kind of eco damage, it can be lower. Still changes nothing to the fact your initial point—"mutas are always gone when ultras hatch, leaving Zerg helpless against drops"—is wrong. Zergs with good muta retention can retain some/most of them by the time ultras come into play. From the last Code S season, you can check SHINE vs KeeN, Star Station and Flash vs Soulkey, Whirlwind; or Mvp vs Dimaga, Star Station, WCS Europe; Polt vs IdrA, Daybreak, WCS America (peak at 107 drones!); ForGG vs Stephano, Star Station, WCS Europe; MMA vs TLO, Whirlwind, WCS Europe; YoDa vs Bboong, Derelict Watcher, GSTL; Bogus vs Soulkey, Newkirk, OSL; ... See, the examples are not lacking in which Zerg gets some ultras (or broods) while still having a decent fleet of mutas, so how about you stop pretending it can never happen? Show nested quote +- 3 3 finishes for T once hive finishes (its about 4 min 3 3 vs 2 2 which is a long time) So? 16:27 in the video time, I see 15 mutas with the first 6 ultras. But whatever, better waste time counting how many wings are beating rather than discussing the original point. Show nested quote +--> this is a "good game" muta and hivetech wise and even this game is much much worse than you make it look in your posts (no 90 drones, no 15-25 mutas leftover, no equal upgrades + some very obv. micro mistakes from flash that other top level Ts do better right now). now there are so many examples where its even much worse and Z has less drones and even much later hivetech to stay alive vs 4M. As if hyvaa hadn't made dozens of mistakes too in this game. The level at which Flash played this game is still unmatched by 99.99% of the Terran players, and even at Code S level there are only a few Terrans who could do as well.
Generally speaking, when Z has mutas left when ultras pop it isnt because they "retained" mutas, its that they kept producing to stay at a certain number so that they have drop defense.
Also, why do people ignore me 
"How many times do you see Z get 90 drones with mutaling bling? You say standard like it happens all the time, but I very rarely see it happen... Usually it is 3 base near saturation and then maybe the 4th has gas drones (and they pull drones from their main/nat to get minerals there as the main at least will be running out of minerals)."
And why is Z the only race that is making it supposedly standard to get 90 workers? Theoretically, T would be ideal for 90 workers. 4-5 bases worth of workers + mules and you can have 50+ supply army production every 35 seconds. Or even protoss warpgates.... pushing out 20 zealots on the front line. Every race benefits from higher income, but generally Z is the only one that uses it... why?
|
because you will have more money than 90 drones zerg at 65 scvs thanks to mules + more army supply = even more cost efficient trades.
more income, more cost efficient.
|
On August 18 2013 07:11 Dwayn wrote:
you don't get a lot out of saturating the 4 base fully, cause you really want the gas. 90 drones on 4 base just seems bad.
you better be really good at injecting your hatcheries to make mass lings... that's for sure. 90 drones seems entirely unnecessary though especially in the end game.
On August 18 2013 07:46 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:11 Dwayn wrote:
you don't get a lot out of saturating the 4 base fully, cause you really want the gas. 90 drones on 4 base just seems bad. why? In tvz, you trade units all the time. Bio/mine vs muta/ling/bane, its normal to trade alot so why not have 90drones? i as zerg love to have 90drones cuz you trade all the time, you keep attacking all the time This is the mu as zerg, u want these many drones. Against protss thats a different story completely
There's a timer on how good it is. I agree it can be good if you play super aggressive and inject well then it can be powerful, but after 3/3 finishes for the other opponent and he's not dead, it's probably prudent to get rid of 15-20 of those drones (if the other player hasn't already lol)
|
On August 18 2013 07:58 willstertben wrote:
because you will have more money than 90 drones zerg at 65 scvs thanks to mules + more army supply = even more cost efficient trades.
more income, more cost efficient.
Should this be the case though? If you have 90 SCV's you can push the front and drop two locations at the same time and pretty much not even worry because your production will be sky high. And if the game goes even later you can sac SCV's.
|
On August 18 2013 08:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:58 willstertben wrote:
because you will have more money than 90 drones zerg at 65 scvs thanks to mules + more army supply = even more cost efficient trades.
more income, more cost efficient. Should this be the case though? If you have 90 SCV's you can push the front and drop two locations at the same time and pretty much not even worry because your production will be sky high. And if the game goes even later you can sac SCV's.
being able to play with 50 workers is one of terrans biggest advantages. Orbital commands are pretty, pretty good.
|
On August 18 2013 08:03 dutchfriese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 08:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 18 2013 07:58 willstertben wrote:
because you will have more money than 90 drones zerg at 65 scvs thanks to mules + more army supply = even more cost efficient trades.
more income, more cost efficient. Should this be the case though? If you have 90 SCV's you can push the front and drop two locations at the same time and pretty much not even worry because your production will be sky high. And if the game goes even later you can sac SCV's. being able to play with 50 workers is one of terrans biggest advantages. Orbital commands are pretty, pretty good.
So is being able to do more than the standard 15 marines/2 medivacs/2 marauders/2 mines. I mean, parade pushes are the standard, that would benefit the most from higher economy. It is like sauron zerg.
|
On August 18 2013 08:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 08:03 dutchfriese wrote:On August 18 2013 08:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 18 2013 07:58 willstertben wrote:
because you will have more money than 90 drones zerg at 65 scvs thanks to mules + more army supply = even more cost efficient trades.
more income, more cost efficient. Should this be the case though? If you have 90 SCV's you can push the front and drop two locations at the same time and pretty much not even worry because your production will be sky high. And if the game goes even later you can sac SCV's. being able to play with 50 workers is one of terrans biggest advantages. Orbital commands are pretty, pretty good. So is being able to do more than the standard 15 marines/2 medivacs/2 marauders/2 mines. I mean, parade pushes are the standard, that would benefit the most from higher economy. It is like sauron zerg.
yes but mules cost 0 supply and mine minerals for efficiently. There's no reason not to have 4 orbitals while the parade push is commencing. 60ish workers is more ideal, but pro terrans play end game with 50 workers all the time. Past 20 minutes.. there is no reason not to have AT LEAST 5 orbitals
|
it's all quite skill intensive anyway, contending creep spread or mutalisk count. i dont think there are glairng annoying things about the matchup if both sides play standard outside of zerg being slightly stronger or weaker at times. blizzard should know how to deal with it if they are competent.
On August 18 2013 07:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:36 Wingblade wrote:On August 18 2013 07:00 Grumbels wrote:
I had the following idea for the ghost:
Snipe stuns units for 0.5s
I thought it would be useful for occasionally catching some ultralisks, corruptors, mutalisks and brood lords. There is an apm and energy requirement for using snipe, so it's not like you can actually use it for crowd control, so I don't think it's abusable.
I'm proposing this in the context of terran having a slight lack of options in dealing with ultralisks. The ghost isn't used to much in TvZ and TvT, so it seemed like a fun change to me. That is an absolutely awful idea... High Templar trying to retreat? NOPE they are stunned. Terran also doesnt need late game help vZ. Basically it's never harder for the already really slow high Templar to pull back, and overall limits micro for Zerg and Protoss when there is no need for it If your templar are being sniped they're not going to be able to retreat anyway. Any Terran who has the opportunity to snipe it once and run in to finish it off will just snipe it twice and not have to worry about it. Certainly Terran doesn't really need lategame help TvZ, although since going for ghosts is a diversion from whatever else he'd be doing, it wouldn't necessarily make Terran late game more powerful. Right now ghosts are pretty much wasted money and supply late game TvZ. I'm not saying the change is great, or that it's likely to happen, but it's probably not game-breaking. Although shouldn't ultralisks be immune to an effect like that because of Frenzy anyway?
yeah its probalby a bad idea, i posted it on reddit and people were even meaner than wingblade ^^
since frenzy should prevent ultralisks from being affected by this the ability has no reason to exist i guess
|
On August 18 2013 07:44 willstertben wrote:
dwf is right. you actually NEED 4 full base saturation for muta ling bling vs 3 base bio mine or you'll just get outproduced and die.
also you need a good bank for ultra transition, cause making 2-3 ultras is as good as making 0.
usually the ultra transition is limited by gas, not minerals.
|
On August 18 2013 07:46 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:11 Dwayn wrote:
you don't get a lot out of saturating the 4 base fully, cause you really want the gas. 90 drones on 4 base just seems bad. why? In tvz, you trade units all the time. Bio/mine vs muta/ling/bane, its normal to trade alot so why not have 90drones? i as zerg love to have 90drones cuz you trade all the time, you keep attacking all the time This is the mu as zerg, u want these many drones. Against protss thats a different story completely
because 2/2 lings don't 'trade' vs 3/3 mmmm, they just die. And more minerals don't help you to get more banes and mutas or transition better into hive. I'm sure there are people who can make it work and like playing like that, but I don't think it's standard.
|
On August 18 2013 07:44 willstertben wrote:
dwf is right. you actually NEED 4 full base saturation for muta ling bling vs 3 base bio mine or you'll just get outproduced and die.
also you need a good bank for ultra transition, cause making 2-3 ultras is as good as making 0.
Well what about 2-3 ultras with heavy queen support? As long as you prevent the bio from retreating and kiting your ultras forever, even 3 ultras with 5-7 queens following is absolutely deadly to any bio force.
You can make this effective either through ling surrounds or fungals, locking the bio army in place.
|
United States15275 Posts
On August 18 2013 09:03 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 07:44 willstertben wrote:
dwf is right. you actually NEED 4 full base saturation for muta ling bling vs 3 base bio mine or you'll just get outproduced and die.
also you need a good bank for ultra transition, cause making 2-3 ultras is as good as making 0. Well what about 2-3 ultras with heavy queen support? As long as you prevent the bio from retreating and kiting your ultras forever, even 3 ultras with 5-7 queens following is absolutely deadly to any bio force. You can make this effective either through ling surrounds or fungals, locking the bio army in place.
That's not the most effective use of ultras. Eventually you'll get kited to the point that the queens will lag behind the ultras. Ultras work best as frontline support for the speedling/bane army so the latter can get into the army without eating the initial damage.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
90 drones on 4 bases? Ehem, last time i checked zerg does not need so many minerals. 90 drones is fine.... for 6 bases and more bases IMO
|
|
|
I'm gonna steer this discussion to a different direction for a sec.
I've been playing this game for 3 months and last night I realized something. All those matches and I haven't made a single Nydus Network. Not once. I didn't even think about doing it. I also watch a lot of streams and I can't recall the last time someone made that building. Then I looked at Liquipedia.
Nydus Network - 150 minerals, 200 gas.
Nydus Worm - 100 minerals, 100 gas. Build time: 20 secs, HP: 200
'Upon completion of the Nydus Worm, a global sound effect will be heard from all players.'
That reminded me why it's so bad. An investment of 250 minerals and 300 gas that can be killed by workers. And the global sound effect that warns your opponent.
Would it be game-breaking to make Nydus Worm cost 150 or 200 minerals and no gas? It seems like an interesting tool, one that would make the game more dynamic while not really affecting the balance too much. It could always be limited in other ways, like adding a cooldown so you can't just build one after the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
