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On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again.
I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up.
Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement.
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On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement.
Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently? I cannot name any and while mech was very beatable in WoL already, nowadays with viper its even harder to pull off mech, if viable at all. Biomine is superior to marine/tank because mutas got buffed and marine/tank was very unforgiving to begin with.
If you design a game around mobility you better give all races the chance to keep up. Give Terran an upgrade that allows for faster siege up / unsiege to make up for the forced stationary movement of tanks. Thats the real reason that Terran playes biomine. I can guarantee most Terrans would prefer marine/tank as it takes very methodical and skilled play to be successful with it but its also a lot more riable compared to biomine.
Right now, getting caught offguard is harsh to Terran, but you can make up for it as Mines allow for less punishing situations even out-of-position. Retreat with marine/tank or being out of positions means you are dead and you won't come back from losing your tank count. Additionally marine / mine can push out earlier and gives a midgame initiate to Terran while Marine/Tank compared to that can only push out relatively late and would allow very greedy play of Zerg.
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On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement.
Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing.
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4713 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement.
No, he is right, the problem with Terran's end game composition of sky terran has been, and always will be, that its supper difficult to get up to, to the point of it not being viable. Terran can't produce 8-10 BCs, 6 ravens and 16+ Vikings in 90 seconds, it takes a very, very, long time to do that, it costs tons of gas, not only to get the units themselves but also to build the infrastructure necessary to produce that force. And, because the transition period is so long, the zerg has a great timing window to attack and kill the Terran. We saw just that happen in Hyun vs Polt first game of the grand final of MLG Anaheim on Akilon, Polt was very, very, very close to losing that game, Hyun was nearly on top of his production, had he been diligent enough to scout the transition in time or had he had a safety spire he could have easily made some corrupters and overwhelmed Polt's BCs before they reached critical mass.
And the problem with mech is much more clear cut and straightforward. It flat out sucks vs zerg, its way too hard countered by SH and Vipers, and regardless of how well a Terran plays, if the zerg just responds properly there is no way the terran should win. If mech was viable it would be played much, much, much more then it is now.
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On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing.
marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now?
terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings
zerg has quicker mutas
the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now
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On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now
Marine/tank isn't viable in HOTS simply because of the ultra, the standard 2-2 timings would usually eventually have to fight a few ultras but in WOL you manage by tanking them with marines. In HOTS they cleave through all your army at lightning speed.
Also note that marine/tank cannot be played with constant aggression like bio/mine, making ultras come out much faster.
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On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now?
Because HotS mutas don't care about mild damage and can thus afford more Tank snipes; 1-2 Thor(s) cannot control high mutas counts the way they could in WoL; HotS ultras are much more brutal vs Marines, which means your Marines/Tanks army will completely melt to Hive rush (4/2 WoL ultras could already slaughter Marines/Tanks pushes, so imagine now). Not to mention Zergs are now better at exploiting Terran's slow pushes with counters or circling maneuvers.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? Because HotS mutas don't care about mild damage and can thus afford more Tank snipes; 1-2 Thor(s) cannot control high mutas counts the way they could in WoL; HotS ultras are much more brutal vs Marines, which means your Marines/Tanks army will completely melt to Hive rush (4/2 WoL ultras could already slaughter Marines/Tanks pushes, so imagine now). Not to mention Zergs are now better at exploiting Terran's slow pushes with counters or circling maneuvers.
What i find funniest of that all is that Muta's regen is due to widow mine's existence. More powerful Ultras is the real argument though, though without infestors and / or queens they still suck against kiting IMO.
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On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now
The main reason that tanks in general are not used in TvZ is because of vipers, and swarm hosts. The design of these two units are to counter heavy tank contains, and they do this so well that mines became the option for Terran.
The Zerg hots units has made tanks unviable, and so has the hellbat nerf. So what other option is there for Terran?
Mines themselves are not OP, but it's the synergy with bio that mines allow which is pretty strong at the moment.
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On August 18 2013 20:07 TheDwf wrote:
Yes, cheaper Nydus to buff horrible gimmicks like 2-bases Roach Nydus in TvZ is exactly what SC2 needs. More coinflips!
Yes, morphing Nydus can be killed by workers, and fortunately so, because otherwise they would be unstoppable. Still, workers don't auto-pull to kill them, so it requires attention, and you can easily distract your opponent (see Bomber vs Symbol, Daybreak, for instance; or FanTaSy vs TRUE, Akilon Wastes; the first Nydus are denied, but Zerg keeps trying while attacking head-on and eventually one goes through). The global sound effect is irrelevant most of the time because in TvZ you've already lost if a Nydus completes in your base anyway, unless you were going for a 2-bases timing or something.
Like I said, there's a way to make it work without making it 'all-inish'.
There could be a cooldown on Nydus Worm. So a single Nydus Network could only make 1 Worm every X seconds.
There could be a limit to how many units (or supply of units) it could transfer after which it would collapse.
It could be made into a unique harass option for Zerg.
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On August 18 2013 21:04 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? Because HotS mutas don't care about mild damage and can thus afford more Tank snipes; 1-2 Thor(s) cannot control high mutas counts the way they could in WoL; HotS ultras are much more brutal vs Marines, which means your Marines/Tanks army will completely melt to Hive rush (4/2 WoL ultras could already slaughter Marines/Tanks pushes, so imagine now). Not to mention Zergs are now better at exploiting Terran's slow pushes with counters or circling maneuvers. What i find funniest of that all is that Muta's regen is due to widow mine's existence. More powerful Ultras is the real argument though, though without infestors and / or queens they still suck against kiting IMO.
There's only so little kiting you can do if you want to rely on tank DPS to bring down the ultras... Marine/marauder is just infinitely better at fighting ultras in HOTS.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 18 2013 21:19 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 21:04 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 18 2013 20:50 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? Because HotS mutas don't care about mild damage and can thus afford more Tank snipes; 1-2 Thor(s) cannot control high mutas counts the way they could in WoL; HotS ultras are much more brutal vs Marines, which means your Marines/Tanks army will completely melt to Hive rush (4/2 WoL ultras could already slaughter Marines/Tanks pushes, so imagine now). Not to mention Zergs are now better at exploiting Terran's slow pushes with counters or circling maneuvers. What i find funniest of that all is that Muta's regen is due to widow mine's existence. More powerful Ultras is the real argument though, though without infestors and / or queens they still suck against kiting IMO. There's only so little kiting you can do if you want to rely on tank DPS to bring down the ultras... Marine/marauder is just infinitely better at fighting ultras in HOTS.
Actually my idea with nearly impossible execution that is to kite ultras with marine-marauders, while trying to make tanks shell away banelings.
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The issue with TvZ late game is that Terran has to be highly mobile to fight vs Hive units. This basically rules out using tanks and thus forces terran into bio/mine (or possibly sky terran in super late game).
Terran no longer has the ability to form strong defensive positions that can trade in a sufficiently effective manner to make up for the lack of mobility.
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On August 18 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently?
Mvp ♥
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4713 Posts
On August 18 2013 22:46 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently? Mvp ♥
Not true at all, Mvp goes 4M, he played 4M for most of HoTS as well, he only mixed it up in WCS EU RO16 and onward to catch his opponents off balance, that one game of Dimaga vs Mvp on Newkirk was in no way indicative of the strength of mech, had Dimaga done the right thing, which was actually SH play directly into Hive play, then Mvp would have been dead in the water. And Newkirk is even one of the more mech oriented maps, imagine how bad it actually is on more open maps.
I also hope you don't consider his Hellbat oriented pressures/all-ins to be mech.
So please take off your rose tinted glasses and take a good hard look at the real world, if the greatest champion of mech is not using it, given that his physical issues would actually benefit greatly from him using mech, then it is clear the style is just not viable.
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On August 18 2013 22:46 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently? Mvp ♥
Didn't see him play mech in TvZ since WCS global finals.
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nydus can easily be changed with keeping the basic nydus price high but lowering the costs for creating the network nydus. E.g. 200:200 for base and 50:50 for a connection would work out very fine and make nydus more worth to consider playing. I suggest blizzard to do this cause it has no real effect on the game and an usused technology maybe gets used a bit more oftenly then.
overlordspeed can't be easily increased because Z has too many overlords available and it might get OP. But right now it is defenitely UP, especially for the reason that zerg has no decent units to drop vs a made terran/toss base. Z drops usually end extremely cost unefficient for zergs. Most drops get cleared by a production cycle of p/t and Z loses more units/minerals/effort in executing the drop than any damage that can be dealt. So I think there is some room for improvements of Z drops. A slight speed inprovement with the speed upgrade might not change anything at all in the metagame and therefore could be tested. Especially because Z has actually no harrass options left vs mine terran and MSC protoss and therefore is boring to play (defensive only). Drops could help zergs to get new offensive potential.
Mobility ZvsT:
The only untis of Z that are more mobile than 4M is ling/bling/muta. Anything else will get overpowered by bio in matters of speed. Not buffing nydus and drop because Z is so mobile has no substance as nyduses basically are used to move roach/hydra/ultra and not mutalisks or zerglings. Zerglings inside nydus have not much use as they get easily killed one by one when they exit the nydus, sure they can be used in combination with other units. Many Z units are so slow that you dont even want to bother moving them out of your base if you are not going for a killmove try e.g. roach, hydra, ultra, BL.
Rabiator. You talk alot of bullshit about Z creativity. Z allows zero creativity in ZvT and the same does T. Z is on the verge of dieing at any point vs 4M pushes/drops. You simply cannot split alot of units off your baneling army and spread them all over the map, burrowed, in the hope that something walks over it and you can catch 4-10 marines each 2 banelings by luck and the other get killed with the scan, its not cost efficient at all lol. These banelings are missing in the army and Z then can only engage the bio/mine with less units which is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Banelings are no mines that can shoot again and again and they have no range too. If terran walks 2 squares away from them they dont do anything and just sit there being useless and you probably lose the game 5 minutes earlier than usual.
It is funny to see that some terrans in this forums think they know more than pro korean players. Sure the kor pros are not creative enaugh to use baneling mines. And sure ZvT would be much more balanced with zergs using baneling mines every game. It must be the potential that zergs havent learned to use yet. Big time rofl. You probably are somewhat high master with terran and have an 8-5 ratio and need an excuse for it (Z lacks creativity cause they dont use baneling mines). lol
In reality the whole potential of development in the matchup in its current state is on the terran side and not the other way round, baneling mines have been used as an excuse for months now. But its not viable for the reasons I stated many times before, otherwise it would be used more. This is what I said shortly after the release of hots and it will stay like this until blizzards introduces any changes that really give Z a counter to 4M play and not just does minor changes like overseer speed buff or hellbat nerf. At the same time terran mech should get improved too so we see terran do just any transition.
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Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC.
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On August 18 2013 22:46 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently? Mvp ♥
Mvp was meching last season against foreigner Zergs. That is not the highest level.
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nydus just seem s very abusable to me, have your ultra army kill planetary and being garanteed escape because you build a nydus next to your army
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EPT
