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On August 19 2013 01:02 Grumbels wrote:
nydus just seem s very abusable to me, have your ultra army kill planetary and being garanteed escape because you build a nydus next to your army
Are you talking about medivacs or recall?? But really nydus is not the answer to the deeper 4M problem. Buffing gimmicky stuff is not a good way to balance the game in my mind. Reaching those ultras is also pretty difficult at the moment.
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4713 Posts
On August 19 2013 00:09 LSN wrote:
nydus can easily be changed with keeping the basic nydus price high but lowering the costs for creating the network nydus. E.g. 200:200 for base and 50:50 for a connection would work out very fine and make nydus more worth to consider playing. I suggest blizzard to do this cause it has no real effect on the game and an usused technology maybe gets used a bit more oftenly then.
overlordspeed can't be easily increased because Z has too many overlords available and it might get OP. But right now it is defenitely UP, especially for the reason that zerg has no decent units to drop vs a made terran/toss base. Z drops usually end extremely cost unefficient for zergs. Most drops get cleared by a production cycle of p/t and Z loses more units/minerals/effort in executing the drop than any damage that can be dealt. So I think there is some room for improvements of Z drops. A slight speed inprovement with the speed upgrade might not change anything at all in the metagame and therefore could be tested. Especially because Z has actually no harrass options left vs mine terran and MSC protoss and therefore is boring to play (defensive only). Drops could help zergs to get new offensive potential.
Mobility ZvsT:
The only untis of Z that are more mobile than 4M is ling/bling/muta. Anything else will get overpowered by bio in matters of speed. Not buffing nydus and drop because Z is so mobile has no substance as nyduses basically are used to move roach/hydra/ultra and not mutalisks or zerglings. Zerglings inside nydus have not much use as they get easily killed one by one when they exit the nydus, sure they can be used in combination with other units. Many Z units are so slow that you dont even want to bother moving them out of your base if you are not going for a killmove try e.g. roach, hydra, ultra, BL.
Rabiator. You talk alot of bullshit about Z creativity. Z allows zero creativity in ZvT and the same does T. Z is on the verge of dieing at any point vs 4M pushes/drops. You simply cannot split alot of units off your baneling army and spread them all over the map, burrowed, in the hope that something walks over it and you can catch 4-10 marines each 2 banelings by luck and the other get killed with the scan, its not cost efficient at all lol. These banelings are missing in the army and Z then can only engage the bio/mine with less units which is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Banelings are no mines that can shoot again and again and they have no range too. If terran walks 2 squares away from them they dont do anything and just sit there being useless and you probably lose the game 5 minutes earlier than usual.
It is funny to see that some terrans in this forums think they know more than pro korean players. Sure the kor pros are not creative enaugh to use baneling mines. And sure ZvT would be much more balanced with zergs using baneling mines every game. It must be the potential that zergs havent learned to use yet. Big time rofl. You probably are somewhat high master with terran and have an 8-5 ratio and need an excuse for it (Z lacks creativity cause they dont use baneling mines). lol
In reality the whole potential of development in the matchup in its current state is on the terran side and not the other way round, baneling mines have been used as an excuse for months now. But its not viable for the reasons I stated many times before, otherwise it would be used more. This is what I said shortly after the release of hots and it will stay like this until blizzards introduces any changes that really give Z a counter to 4M play and not just does minor changes like overseer speed buff or hellbat nerf. At the same time terran mech should get improved too so we see terran do just any transition.
You miss the point, just because ling, bling and muta is already very, very mobile doesn't mean roach, hydra and other compositions need to be just as mobile by use of nydus network, in fact that would be detrimental to the game for a whole number of reasons. And this isn't just an issue in ZvT it would be a huge issue in ZvP if zerg could potentially threaten any protoss position across any distance at the same time trough use of nydus. It severely impacts choices like expansion patterns and defensive plans if a ultra army could potentially be both at the top most base and the bottom most base on Akilon in almost the blink of an eye.
And while it doesn't seem that big an issue for terrans currently, given just a couple of map architecture changes it could suddenly become a huge issue .
So no, any Nydus buff is just flat out a bad idea as long as creep speed exists in conjuncture to tons of speed upgrades for nearly all zerg units.
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On August 18 2013 20:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now Marine/tank isn't viable in HOTS simply because of the ultra, the standard 2-2 timings would usually eventually have to fight a few ultras but in WOL you manage by tanking them with marines. In HOTS they cleave through all your army at lightning speed. Also note that marine/tank cannot be played with constant aggression like bio/mine, making ultras come out much faster.
Marine/tank works, you just need to make an adjustment to Marauders when you find that the player is going ultra. It is still very hard, but A zerg who attacks into sieged up tanks and marauders will have a hard time. And vipers can be dealt with a squad of vikings. Odds are with the army comp the zerg has if they are going ultra they won't have AA. And besides drop play still is strong in this phase of the game, and Marauders eat buildings!
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On August 19 2013 00:20 a3den wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC.
Because the MSC is more or less negated by a single PDD.
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On August 19 2013 01:24 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 00:20 a3den wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC. Because the MSC is more or less negated by a single PDD.
As if Photon Overcharge was the only aspect of the MSC making 1-1-1 all-ins completely obsolete.
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On August 19 2013 01:15 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:43 Bagi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now Marine/tank isn't viable in HOTS simply because of the ultra, the standard 2-2 timings would usually eventually have to fight a few ultras but in WOL you manage by tanking them with marines. In HOTS they cleave through all your army at lightning speed. Also note that marine/tank cannot be played with constant aggression like bio/mine, making ultras come out much faster. Marine/tank works, you just need to make an adjustment to Marauders when you find that the player is going ultra. It is still very hard, but A zerg who attacks into sieged up tanks and marauders will have a hard time. And vipers can be dealt with a squad of vikings. Odds are with the army comp the zerg has if they are going ultra they won't have AA. And besides drop play still is strong in this phase of the game, and Marauders eat buildings!
So you think terran should open bio tank and then transition to bio mine only when ultras come out? Why take that risk? How do you trade away your tanks effectively when you spot the ultra transition? What if you don't spot it?
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On August 19 2013 01:24 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 00:20 a3den wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC. Because the MSC is more or less negated by a single PDD.
Photon overcharge lasts way longer than a single PDD.
Not that it matters, 1-1-1 was figured out way before it.
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Something needs to be done with terran base race, makes no sense that they can hit you Even with a small squad while u attack them and they just fly their cc and sit behind their wall ramp and take no damage, it's retarded, and they burst your base down in 2 sec with a stim lol
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tank marine had so many problems at the end of WoL... I can't believe people are saying it's viable, let alone close to as good as bio/mine. it starts too late (see the end of WoL), and now we have vipers and swarm hosts also. and better ultras.
sure if the zerg attacks into your sieged tanks without vipers the units die but that doesn't exactly prove anything.
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On August 19 2013 02:23 Extenz wrote:
Something needs to be done with terran base race, makes no sense that they can hit you Even with a small squad while u attack them and they just fly their cc and sit behind their wall ramp and take no damage, it's retarded, and they burst your base down in 2 sec with a stim lol
if it's a small squad can't you like, warp in and kill it? or go home after you make them lift?
it's not retarded, just an advantage of the race. we can lift buildings.
don't base race a terran if they keep going badly for you. obs on their army, scout the map, etc.
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So never go for a base race? All the races have different strenghts.
Or just keep a few HT behind and kill their stimmed marines in 2 sec.
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On August 19 2013 02:20 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 01:24 Wingblade wrote:On August 19 2013 00:20 a3den wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC. Because the MSC is more or less negated by a single PDD. Photon overcharge lasts way longer than a single PDD. Not that it matters, 1-1-1 was figured out way before it.
Immortals were given +1 range to counter it. Not exactly "figured out".
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On August 19 2013 02:32 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 02:20 Bagi wrote:On August 19 2013 01:24 Wingblade wrote:On August 19 2013 00:20 a3den wrote:
Sometimes, I wonder if there is a reason for the immortal being so good now that 1/1/1 is more or less negated by the MSC. Because the MSC is more or less negated by a single PDD. Photon overcharge lasts way longer than a single PDD. Not that it matters, 1-1-1 was figured out way before it. Immortals were given +1 range to counter it. Not exactly "figured out".
QQ more. It has been figured out.
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It was figured out by cutting a few probes to get units out faster.
Reducing photon overcharge time by 15s or so would not bring back the 1-1-1.
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On August 19 2013 01:15 HeeroFX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:43 Bagi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now Marine/tank isn't viable in HOTS simply because of the ultra, the standard 2-2 timings would usually eventually have to fight a few ultras but in WOL you manage by tanking them with marines. In HOTS they cleave through all your army at lightning speed. Also note that marine/tank cannot be played with constant aggression like bio/mine, making ultras come out much faster. Marine/tank works, you just need to make an adjustment to Marauders when you find that the player is going ultra. It is still very hard, but A zerg who attacks into sieged up tanks and marauders will have a hard time. And vipers can be dealt with a squad of vikings. Odds are with the army comp the zerg has if they are going ultra they won't have AA. And besides drop play still is strong in this phase of the game, and Marauders eat buildings!
because marine/tank worked so well at the end of WoL? What weed are you smoking?
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On August 19 2013 02:45 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 01:15 HeeroFX wrote:On August 18 2013 20:43 Bagi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:30 Tsubbi wrote:On August 18 2013 20:16 TheDwf wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Pure bio isn't viable against lings/banes/mutas, without ranged AoE you just get demolished. Marines/Tanks doesn't work against lings/banes/mutas either because no pressure before a healthy Tank count = Zerg creeps freely and gets mass mutas or fast hive and ultras stomp you. Mech is very weak, extremely unforgiving and tends to lose vs any competent Zerg because unless you inflict huge eco damage with BFH or something, Zerg is free to do whatever he wants since HotS has killed the pre-hive units timing. marine tank is very viable, in wol marine tank vs ling bane muta was very balanced and without infestor broodlord why would things be different now? terran got free siege, medivac boost and reaper openings zerg has quicker mutas the only thing that keeps terran from playing marine tank or mech is that 4M is the nash equilibrium choice for terrans and there is no incentive to do anything else right now Marine/tank isn't viable in HOTS simply because of the ultra, the standard 2-2 timings would usually eventually have to fight a few ultras but in WOL you manage by tanking them with marines. In HOTS they cleave through all your army at lightning speed. Also note that marine/tank cannot be played with constant aggression like bio/mine, making ultras come out much faster. Marine/tank works, you just need to make an adjustment to Marauders when you find that the player is going ultra. It is still very hard, but A zerg who attacks into sieged up tanks and marauders will have a hard time. And vipers can be dealt with a squad of vikings. Odds are with the army comp the zerg has if they are going ultra they won't have AA. And besides drop play still is strong in this phase of the game, and Marauders eat buildings! because marine/tank worked so well at the end of WoL? What weed are you smoking?
Because the Infestor hasn't been nerfed specifically to adress how bio/tank got crushed by Infestor/Broodlord armies?
Bio/Tank is viable. But it's not worth it, because the only reason why you have to mix in Tanks/Mines into your MM or MMM is banelings. (Previously you also wanted them against infestors; and I guess Tanks are pretty vital against certain allins) So if you don't want a lot of Factory Units anyways... just build those that work better with the rest of your playstyle and are easier to build/replace, which means widow mines.
Towards the lategame you don't really need either of them as the bioballs just get to big for banelings to handle anyways and you will be fighting ultrabased armies. But you can still use mines (because they are quite versatile) while tankplay when you want to kite and drop mostly is pretty stupid. (though I guess tankplay transitions better into ravenbased play - which nobody has figured out up to this point, because right now there is no need to transition out of MMMM)
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On August 19 2013 01:11 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 00:09 LSN wrote:
nydus can easily be changed with keeping the basic nydus price high but lowering the costs for creating the network nydus. E.g. 200:200 for base and 50:50 for a connection would work out very fine and make nydus more worth to consider playing. I suggest blizzard to do this cause it has no real effect on the game and an usused technology maybe gets used a bit more oftenly then.
overlordspeed can't be easily increased because Z has too many overlords available and it might get OP. But right now it is defenitely UP, especially for the reason that zerg has no decent units to drop vs a made terran/toss base. Z drops usually end extremely cost unefficient for zergs. Most drops get cleared by a production cycle of p/t and Z loses more units/minerals/effort in executing the drop than any damage that can be dealt. So I think there is some room for improvements of Z drops. A slight speed inprovement with the speed upgrade might not change anything at all in the metagame and therefore could be tested. Especially because Z has actually no harrass options left vs mine terran and MSC protoss and therefore is boring to play (defensive only). Drops could help zergs to get new offensive potential.
Mobility ZvsT:
The only untis of Z that are more mobile than 4M is ling/bling/muta. Anything else will get overpowered by bio in matters of speed. Not buffing nydus and drop because Z is so mobile has no substance as nyduses basically are used to move roach/hydra/ultra and not mutalisks or zerglings. Zerglings inside nydus have not much use as they get easily killed one by one when they exit the nydus, sure they can be used in combination with other units. Many Z units are so slow that you dont even want to bother moving them out of your base if you are not going for a killmove try e.g. roach, hydra, ultra, BL.
Rabiator. You talk alot of bullshit about Z creativity. Z allows zero creativity in ZvT and the same does T. Z is on the verge of dieing at any point vs 4M pushes/drops. You simply cannot split alot of units off your baneling army and spread them all over the map, burrowed, in the hope that something walks over it and you can catch 4-10 marines each 2 banelings by luck and the other get killed with the scan, its not cost efficient at all lol. These banelings are missing in the army and Z then can only engage the bio/mine with less units which is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Banelings are no mines that can shoot again and again and they have no range too. If terran walks 2 squares away from them they dont do anything and just sit there being useless and you probably lose the game 5 minutes earlier than usual.
It is funny to see that some terrans in this forums think they know more than pro korean players. Sure the kor pros are not creative enaugh to use baneling mines. And sure ZvT would be much more balanced with zergs using baneling mines every game. It must be the potential that zergs havent learned to use yet. Big time rofl. You probably are somewhat high master with terran and have an 8-5 ratio and need an excuse for it (Z lacks creativity cause they dont use baneling mines). lol
In reality the whole potential of development in the matchup in its current state is on the terran side and not the other way round, baneling mines have been used as an excuse for months now. But its not viable for the reasons I stated many times before, otherwise it would be used more. This is what I said shortly after the release of hots and it will stay like this until blizzards introduces any changes that really give Z a counter to 4M play and not just does minor changes like overseer speed buff or hellbat nerf. At the same time terran mech should get improved too so we see terran do just any transition.
You miss the point, just because ling, bling and muta is already very, very mobile doesn't mean roach, hydra and other compositions need to be just as mobile by use of nydus network, in fact that would be detrimental to the game for a whole number of reasons. And this isn't just an issue in ZvT it would be a huge issue in ZvP if zerg could potentially threaten any protoss position across any distance at the same time trough use of nydus. It severely impacts choices like expansion patterns and defensive plans if a ultra army could potentially be both at the top most base and the bottom most base on Akilon in almost the blink of an eye. And while it doesn't seem that big an issue for terrans currently, given just a couple of map architecture changes it could suddenly become a huge issue . So no, any Nydus buff is just flat out a bad idea as long as creep speed exists in conjuncture to tons of speed upgrades for nearly all zerg units.
you actually completely miss the point and talk about virtual issues. As a matter of fact nydus in its current state could just be removed from the game and it wouldn't make any difference. It has no use at all and making the use of nydus easier will in no way affect the TvZ metagame in its current state of 4M vs ling/bling/muta. The effect on PvZ would probably be more positive than negative, MSC warp back, warpgate warpins and the fact that units pop one by one out of nydus make it extremely easy to defend against nydus attacks. My proposal of letting the initial costs of nydus as high as it is and reducing the connecting nydus price from 100/100 to 50/50 would in no way be detrimental to the game balance. In fact it is one of zergs problem that usually all units die in engagements and this light change of nydus would affect a tiny very few situations in late/endgame where it can make sense to build a nydus to engage or retreat with units.
The real issues of matchups would not be addressed with this little nydus change anyway but keep talking about your virtual huge impact issues that you expect to come lol. Nydus load/unload speed is way to slow and nydus worms get killed quite fast once they are spotted.
My nydus patchnotes are:
initial costs stay 200/200
nydus connection cost decrease to 50/50
nydus hitpoints increase by 33-50%
nydus connection build time increase by 33-50%
I think something like this should work out well to bring back nydus into the game without making it imbalanced.
I support a lesser difference of speed between on and off creep though, its too much of a difference right now and doesnt support zerg being active/aggressive on the map. The creep thing still is not connected to any potential change of nydus in any way despite of what you say.
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On August 19 2013 03:05 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 01:11 Destructicon wrote:On August 19 2013 00:09 LSN wrote:
nydus can easily be changed with keeping the basic nydus price high but lowering the costs for creating the network nydus. E.g. 200:200 for base and 50:50 for a connection would work out very fine and make nydus more worth to consider playing. I suggest blizzard to do this cause it has no real effect on the game and an usused technology maybe gets used a bit more oftenly then.
overlordspeed can't be easily increased because Z has too many overlords available and it might get OP. But right now it is defenitely UP, especially for the reason that zerg has no decent units to drop vs a made terran/toss base. Z drops usually end extremely cost unefficient for zergs. Most drops get cleared by a production cycle of p/t and Z loses more units/minerals/effort in executing the drop than any damage that can be dealt. So I think there is some room for improvements of Z drops. A slight speed inprovement with the speed upgrade might not change anything at all in the metagame and therefore could be tested. Especially because Z has actually no harrass options left vs mine terran and MSC protoss and therefore is boring to play (defensive only). Drops could help zergs to get new offensive potential.
Mobility ZvsT:
The only untis of Z that are more mobile than 4M is ling/bling/muta. Anything else will get overpowered by bio in matters of speed. Not buffing nydus and drop because Z is so mobile has no substance as nyduses basically are used to move roach/hydra/ultra and not mutalisks or zerglings. Zerglings inside nydus have not much use as they get easily killed one by one when they exit the nydus, sure they can be used in combination with other units. Many Z units are so slow that you dont even want to bother moving them out of your base if you are not going for a killmove try e.g. roach, hydra, ultra, BL.
Rabiator. You talk alot of bullshit about Z creativity. Z allows zero creativity in ZvT and the same does T. Z is on the verge of dieing at any point vs 4M pushes/drops. You simply cannot split alot of units off your baneling army and spread them all over the map, burrowed, in the hope that something walks over it and you can catch 4-10 marines each 2 banelings by luck and the other get killed with the scan, its not cost efficient at all lol. These banelings are missing in the army and Z then can only engage the bio/mine with less units which is a disadvantage, not an advantage. Banelings are no mines that can shoot again and again and they have no range too. If terran walks 2 squares away from them they dont do anything and just sit there being useless and you probably lose the game 5 minutes earlier than usual.
It is funny to see that some terrans in this forums think they know more than pro korean players. Sure the kor pros are not creative enaugh to use baneling mines. And sure ZvT would be much more balanced with zergs using baneling mines every game. It must be the potential that zergs havent learned to use yet. Big time rofl. You probably are somewhat high master with terran and have an 8-5 ratio and need an excuse for it (Z lacks creativity cause they dont use baneling mines). lol
In reality the whole potential of development in the matchup in its current state is on the terran side and not the other way round, baneling mines have been used as an excuse for months now. But its not viable for the reasons I stated many times before, otherwise it would be used more. This is what I said shortly after the release of hots and it will stay like this until blizzards introduces any changes that really give Z a counter to 4M play and not just does minor changes like overseer speed buff or hellbat nerf. At the same time terran mech should get improved too so we see terran do just any transition.
You miss the point, just because ling, bling and muta is already very, very mobile doesn't mean roach, hydra and other compositions need to be just as mobile by use of nydus network, in fact that would be detrimental to the game for a whole number of reasons. And this isn't just an issue in ZvT it would be a huge issue in ZvP if zerg could potentially threaten any protoss position across any distance at the same time trough use of nydus. It severely impacts choices like expansion patterns and defensive plans if a ultra army could potentially be both at the top most base and the bottom most base on Akilon in almost the blink of an eye. And while it doesn't seem that big an issue for terrans currently, given just a couple of map architecture changes it could suddenly become a huge issue . So no, any Nydus buff is just flat out a bad idea as long as creep speed exists in conjuncture to tons of speed upgrades for nearly all zerg units. you actually completely miss the point and talk about virtual issues. As a matter of fact nydus in its current state could just be removed from the game and it wouldn't make any difference. It has no use at all and making the use of nydus easier will in no way affect the TvZ metagame in its current state of 4M vs ling/bling/muta. The effect on PvZ would probably be more positive than negative, MSC warp back, warpgate warpins and the fact that units pop one by one out of nydus make it extremely easy to defend against nydus attacks. My proposal of letting the initial costs of nydus as high as it is and reducing the connecting nydus price from 100/100 to 50/50 would in no way be detrimental to the game balance. In fact it is one of zergs problem that usually all units die in engagements and this light change of nydus would affect a tiny very few situations in late/endgame where it can make sense to build a nydus to engage or retreat with units. The real issues of matchups would not be addressed with this little nydus change anyway but keep talking about your virtual huge impact issues that you expect to come lol. Nydus load/unload speed is way to slow and nydus worms get killed quite fast once they are spotted. My nydus patchnotes are: initial costs stay 200/200 nydus connection cost decrease to 50/50 nydus hitpoints increaseby 33-50% nydus connection build time increase by 33-50% I think something like this should work out well to bring back nydus into the game without making it imbalanced
I think this would be quite a bad patch. It doesn't really change a lot, because now it just takes longer to build which makes it even easier to kill before going up. And the Hitpoint increase does not even balance this out, because most of the work killing a nydus is reaction time. Once you have units attacking it, it's not as hard anymore. Meanwhile the investment costs are even higher now, making it even harder to integrate a nydus into your build.
I'd rather have them redesign the nydus completely.
E.g. make a nydus worm cost 50/50, and the network 100/100 and only give it 8 cargo (like a dropship). And then you can place the nydus, and when it pops up it just immidiatly unloads its 8cargo and goes back into the earth. (basically like a bunker unloads all units at once)
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limited nydus capacity is a good thing to consider, another possible option is to make it it like BW nydus with only one connection and let units exit immediatly on the other side after they enter on the one side.
I don't want nyduses to be built to attack the opponents base. Therefore it is not relevant if workers can attack it or not. Once it is up it has more hitpoints than it has now so it cant be destroyed THAT fast as it is now. I want nyduses to be used to retreat from attacks (longer build time needs earlier decision about retreating with nydus from zerg) or used to move slow units to remote positions.
You didnt get my point BigJ. Nydus should not be an allkill all-in stuff. And for this reason it is bad in general right now, as blizzard doesnt want it to be this too. But nydus can be given some use besides this, without making it better for inbase nydus creation. Something like what I provided in my personal nydus patchnotes would probably do this.
p.s: I really wonder if you believe that I wanted to buff nydus to make zergs create nydus in opponents main base easier. :-( exactly the opposite I want. And your patchnotes of reducing nydus prices to 100/100 and 50/50 are quite bad actually. Not thought through well and without any background information for what reason blizzard should do this.
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On August 18 2013 22:46 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:10 Pandain wrote:On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again. I would be careful with that statement, it's been used by every single race during times when they've been favored in the match-up. Bio is viable and so is mech, it may have to be played differently than what we're used to but terrans wouldn't absolutely fall out, and even if they would be weaker, it's dangerous to assume that as a definitive statement. Name a successful mech Terran on the highest level currently? Mvp ♥
I quite disagree. Mvp hasn't been using all that much.
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