EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 709
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 19 2013 08:27 TheDwf wrote: Yes, lacking 15-20 army supply tied up in workers will result in very bad situations. Protoss' army can already be 30 supply weaker than Terran's one due to 10-20 more workers (when going a standard Probe count, i. e. ~70-75) and some Zealots/Templars scattered across the map, so by further weakening it by 15+ supply Protoss would risk being stomped so hard that even a supersonic remax wouldn't matter. I have played only once a TvP lategame in which Protoss had 90 Probes, and I won because his army at the first engagement was too weak. Parade pushes rely on initiating a momentum, which you simply won't have if you get an early (say before 13') fourth and more than 75 SCVs. Quite on the contrary, the less SCVs you have (while optimally taking advantage of your third mineral line, of course), the more lethal the parade push is; 65 SCVs variants are way more brutal than the 75 ones, because you can get your extra production earlier, you don't build a fourth until "later on" and thus the bio starts streaming earlier in higher numbers. Check the VODs at the bottom of p. 703, Zergs were around 85 drones (94 for the one with Symbol). Give or take a few depending on how the game goes, the map, static defence, casualties and the age of the captain. I think you are hugely overexaggerating the 80 supply lead, it isnt like the zealots are warping in right AFTER the battle, the battle should still be going on. And the engagement that you had, was it near the protoss base or was he the aggressor? Late game when you have ghosts and all the tech you need and he has HT/colossus and 3/3 I can see fewer probes just because you do need to at least somewhat compete armywise to what the T has. I also dont think that 1 time is conclusive enough to say "never". Especially in TvP where a lategame fight is decided by who does the actual engagement better. And what about DURING the midgame as you begin the parade pushes you start making SCV's to get your 4th up? So you have the push beginning around 12-13 minutes, then as it gets near to 16-18 minutes you have 80 SCV's (dont need the 3 gases, so you can have 9 fewer and still have full saturation)... instead of pumping 15 marines you are doing 21 or 22. In regards to VOD's, I dont really care about a couple of games. Standard means it happens often. I have seen games where T gets more than 60 SCV's, but it isnt standard. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: CC rax gas was not even fully viable in WoL as it would suffer critical damage against some Roaches attacks. Terrans were simply going greed into crossing fingers that Zerg would play 4 or 6 queens because they had to compensate their disadvantage with riskier builds. At any rate the post-Queen patch problems were so solved that mediocre EU Zerg players were still competitive against Code S Terrans by executing the same Hive rush every game. OK, this is completely made up. Those roach attacks you are talking about would be just as viable these days. Thing is, all those forms of roach attacks before and after the queen buff (from 7RR to roach/speedling and roach before speed and roach/baneling) all got figured out. On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: No, I wrote that the Queen patch unlocked Zerg's development. Remember the Hive timings pre-patch? Something like 17' Hive at the earliest when going lings/banes/mutas, and even Infestor play wasn't going Hive earlier than 14' from memory. After the Queen patch, 11' Hive was fully standard. That's not true, 11'-12' Hive was completely standard for Stephano style ZvT, which was the way every foreigner and most Koreans played in 2012 before the patch. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67112 Unless you are referring to mid 2011 gameplay, before people of either side figured out that upgrades are pretty good and 3bases is better than 2, your 14' Hive as standard for infestor play just does not hold. Your memory is over half a year off. http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors4/vod/65736/?set=1 On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: Zergs were sometimes even building Infestors after starting the Hive. Wait, Zergs are not allowed to start infestors after starting a hive? Oh gosh, let's call Terran imbalanced anytime they start a starport before they use their factory... On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: Yes, Terran could match Zerg's economy, but it didn't matter since Zergs were allowed to enter lategame 5+ minuts before Terran, which means Zerg's economy could produce the insanely efficient broods/infests while the Terran one could only give Marines/Tanks and some emergency Vikings. So here is what I said: Zergs were just naturally one step ahead of Terrans when they got out Broodlords. Here is what you said: Zergs were allowed to enter lategame 5+ minuts before Terran Here is what I said: Or few tanks didn't counter a lot of infestors well enough (with upgraded ITs, the Infestor wasn't a counter to the tank, but it was still far from inefficient), however you want to put it. Here is what you said: the insanely efficient broods/infests You are just rephrasing this for the sake of blaming the patch, even though you are just arguing the exact same thing. On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: You also forgot to mention how 60-70% of the map could be covered with creep when Terran was moving out for his pre-broods timing. And you could do that before the patch and you can do that in HotS. Just that the older builds did not rely on it and the newer builds do not rely on it. Creepspread is a build order choice of a zerg to a certain degree. The amount of creepspread is an inherent mechanism of queenbuilds, while speedling builds don't have as much of it. On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: Then explain why broods/infests wasn't as much as a problem pre-patch, even after Blizzard killed Snipe? Same composition, same stats. Because people still had a full year of learning BL/Infestor builds in front of them. If you think 2011-12 MMA, Mvp would have even the slightest chance against 2012-13 Life or Symbol when playing on pre-1.4.3 status then please don't reply to me at all anymore. Even without the queen patch, I'd call it at least debatable if reactored hellion expands would have been standard towards the end of WoL. On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: Only when Terran fears or scouts some kind of Roach-centric attack or play, and even then Terran immediately transitions into Mines when scouting a muta transition. Marines/Tanks is never played as a standard vs straight lings/banes/mutas. The last high level TvZ game I saw featuring Marines/Tanks vs lings/banes/mutas was Bomber vs Life, Bel'shir Vestige, Ritmix RSL V, with Bomber being ahead from the opening because of a failed Baneling bust. Which is again pretty close to what I was saying: I don't believe bio/tank is underpowered. But it's a sidekick composition, because the tank is still not a good lategame option. and then you'd still transition into MMM or 4M. On August 19 2013 07:47 TheDwf wrote: Then why do you say it isn't figured out? The theory about this transition is known since the twilight of WoL. Oh please, it's not that hard to go to a unit tester and play around with unit interactions and then make theoretical statements about what units you need when. This isn't "figuring out the game". It's only a small part of it. The much harder part is to know what to look out for to transition in time, how to transition and how to play after you have transitioned. And right now we don't even know if Broodlord transitions even will be a thing to begin with, so how can the reaction be already figured out? | ||
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ETisME
12876 Posts
This is why ultra as a tier 2.5 was introduced. If dwf you want to illustrate your point by giving out one ortwo rare games, iI can show terran ripping the low upgrade zerg apart even if broodlords were out. Towards the end of Wol, zergs like DRG and losira shine away from infestor style and went for ling baneling muta instead and later transition into infestor ultra and eventually broodlords. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On August 19 2013 10:23 ETisME wrote: Those 11min hive were even that viable on all the maps, the lack of upgrades and infestor energy makes pre hive timing extremely powerful. This is why ultra as a tier 2.5 was introduced. If dwf you want to illustrate your point by giving out one ortwo rare games, iI can show terran ripping the low upgrade zerg apart even if broodlords were out. Towards the end of Wol, zergs like DRG and losira shine away from infestor style and went for ling baneling muta instead and later transition into infestor ultra and eventually broodlords. You chose two Zergs who were displaying terrible results towards the end of WoL... The best Zergs at WoL like Life were using Infestor/Brood Lord. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On August 19 2013 10:34 Entirety wrote: You chose two Zergs who were displaying terrible results towards the end of WoL... The best Zergs at WoL like Life were using Infestor/Brood Lord. I think it is worth mentioning that out of all the top tier Korean zergs it was only Life and Leenock that truly abused infestors, and they were also the most dominant. DRG and Sniper both played mutalisk styles more often than not, Symbol and Hyun were more roach focused I guess. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2013 18:05 Grumbels wrote: I think it is worth mentioning that out of all the top tier Korean zergs it was only Life and Leenock that truly abused infestors, and they were also the most dominant. DRG and Sniper both played mutalisk styles more often than not, Symbol and Hyun were more roach focused I guess. Life and Leenock played also had their fairshare of mutalisk, roach and aggressive ling/infestor styles as well. Not to mention that all zergs played quite a lot of ultralisk styles. If you want to mention players that played turtle broodlord/infestor styles, I think on Korean level you can probably only mention Curious(?). Thing is, no matter the midgame style that the Zerg or Terran played, in the end it would always come down to the zerg having some form of Infestorbased army and the Terran some form of Tankbased army - and then the zerg would go broodlord and start laughing at the tanks that were the only efficient way to combat mass infestors. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12533 Posts
On August 19 2013 18:05 Grumbels wrote: I think it is worth mentioning that out of all the top tier Korean zergs it was only Life and Leenock that truly abused infestors, and they were also the most dominant. DRG and Sniper both played mutalisk styles more often than not, Symbol and Hyun were more roach focused I guess. If you're saying that Symbol was roach focused then you could say Life was ling-focused. Maybe Symbol used roaches more in ZvP I suppose, but then again Life used mutas sometimes as well (final game vs Parting in a series he lost in Ro16). Also Sniper did this thing where he would go [non-infest/brood] every time he didn't *NEED* to win the game (for example, when he had a lead in a series). For that reason I'm reluctant to say he wasn't a bl/infest guy. What happened though was that korean zergs went to bl infestor very late, way later than foreigners did. Also korean protoss rarely went for macro builds against zergs, because, well, they enjoyed winning some of the time, so in a lot of games we couldn't see the lategame wish of the zerg. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
Given that 1) marine tank Vs Ling bling mutalisks was a 50/50 matchup In wol 2) medivac boost and hellbat option is at least as strong as mutalisk speed boost and regen In the strategies mentioned in 1) 3) Terran on the whole considers marine tank to be inferior to 4m now Therefore A) 4m is imbalanced at least vs Ling bling muta | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On August 19 2013 20:18 hearters wrote: What about this argument: Given that 1) marine tank Vs Ling bling mutalisks was a 50/50 matchup In wol 2) medivac boost and hellbat option is at least as strong as mutalisk speed boost and regen In the strategies mentioned in 1) 3) Terran on the whole considers marine tank to be inferior to 4m now Therefore A) 4m is imbalanced at least vs Ling bling muta You are comparing marine tank medivac hellbat versus ling bling mutalisk and marine marauder medivac mine versus ling bling muta. You arent addressing any of the other changes. Vipers make tanks significantly worse than they were but don't effect mines. Ultras are also much stronger against marine tank. Terran playing drop heavy also helps deal with/prevent mass swarmhost styles more effectively. The expansion should encourage people to play with the new units otherwise why buy it. I also consider muta ling bling relatively stronger against marine tank medivac than it was in wol. Mutas are much harder to deal with since they can regen after turret marine and thor shots so getting hit by stray shots doesn't do anywhere near as much. If you include both new terran units but not other zerg changes of course it looks imba. Also, since the queen range change a bio tank style can't control creep which puts them pretty far behind. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 19 2013 20:18 hearters wrote: What about this argument: Given that 1) marine tank Vs Ling bling mutalisks was a 50/50 matchup In wol 2) medivac boost and hellbat option is at least as strong as mutalisk speed boost and regen In the strategies mentioned in 1) 3) Terran on the whole considers marine tank to be inferior to 4m now Therefore A) 4m is imbalanced at least vs Ling bling muta You cant only take one playstyle and then match it against another playstyle and then come to a conclusion. You also need to ... a) include a look at the tech switching capabilities of the races and b) check if any 50/50 matchup comes due to the game being a coinflip playstyle where the one who starts to pressure and harrass his opponent first is the one to win. In short you need an in-depth look at how games are won and not simply the winrate statistics. Maybe some games of "other playstyle" started as the ones you described but ended with a tech switch and a different playstyle. Are those included in the statistics or not and why? ... P.S.: At least you try to talk about "an issue" ... compared to many previous posts which seemed to be interested more in historical development of playstyles. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On August 19 2013 20:18 hearters wrote: What about this argument: Given that 1) marine tank Vs Ling bling mutalisks was a 50/50 matchup In wol 2) medivac boost and hellbat option is at least as strong as mutalisk speed boost and regen In the strategies mentioned in 1) 3) Terran on the whole considers marine tank to be inferior to 4m now Therefore A) 4m is imbalanced at least vs Ling bling muta terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol. gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. this exact question is what i've been wondering about also. terrans themselves said tank marine vs muta ling bling was balanced (even if it wasn't). now we have a 10 times stronger version of tank marine vs the same old muta ling bling (mutas are faster, big deal, changes nothing) and somehow it's supposed to still be balanced? yeah no. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol. gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. this exact question is what i've been wondering about also. terrans themselves said tank marine vs muta ling bling was balanced (even if it wasn't). now we have a 10 times stronger version of tank marine vs the same old muta ling bling (mutas are faster, big deal, changes nothing) and somehow it's supposed to still be balanced? yeah no. Except than after Queen buff, Terran played more MMM or mech games than marine/Tanks. The game channged at that time. And ling/Bling/Muta too. Early WoL was mutaballs of 20/30 mutas. Late Wol was 12 and 2/2 push at 200 population against late tannks builds (coz of 3CC needed to catch up Zerg econ, sinnce no all-in/pressure builds was available.) Result was Terran played mech or pure bio more than marine/tank. Result was muta builds were stronger than in early WoL. Right now, Thors don't scare mutaballs unless they are massed, tanks are slow and don't allow you to attack continuously and therefore delay hivetech, their snipe is easier with mutas since regen and speed buff. Ultras are better than they were in WoL against marine/tank, meaning you need a faster marauder transition. Guess what, marauder AND tanks are bad against mutas, or lings. I don't even speak about the new tools Zergs have against tanks. So Zerg is favored against marine/tanks, slower, less medivacs and heals (so bating stim), less air damage, less power against ground. And, imo Terran is favored with quad-M against Zerg. Although a metagame change and a slight buff of Z (or a slight nerf for T) could do the trick far better than a big buff or a big nerf, as some Z asks for. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On August 19 2013 20:37 willstertben wrote: terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol. gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. this exact question is what i've been wondering about also. terrans themselves said tank marine vs muta ling bling was balanced (even if it wasn't). now we have a 10 times stronger version of tank marine vs the same old muta ling bling (mutas are faster, big deal, changes nothing) and somehow it's supposed to still be balanced? yeah no. For the end of Wol Zerg had the most players in premier, since 2012 had won 4 of 6 gsls had 6 of 12 finalists (compared to 2 for terran both mvp) and despite having the most players had a 60% zvt winrate in code s and a 70% zvt winrate in code a. After various changes it was definitively gomzvz. Zerg has won more gsls than any other race as well. The queen change broke tvz. The match up was 50% before it and then switched to zerg domination, drone uncontested then broodlord infestor. ZvT before the queen range buff seemed fine (though itd be interesting to see how the game wouldve developed). | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote: To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler + FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts. His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play. In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes. Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. | ||
CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote: Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler + FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts. His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play. In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes. Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
On August 19 2013 20:56 Grumbels wrote: It's meaningless to ask whether 4M is imbalanced vs mutaling because zerg has transitioning options. If zerg has transitioning options, why haven't we seen zerg winning mid-late/late game ZvT in the pro-scene for the longest time? On another note, it was my zerg oversight to not include the vipers vs tanks and somewhat better ultras vs marines. Biomine is just really good and will only get better as terrans get better at micro-ing it I feel. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote: Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for. | ||
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