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Over a million viewers now. How are you guys these days? SC2 scene may be slowing down, but the pace of balance discussion is accelerating, I feel.
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Hope it's ok when I'm posting my "Balance" idea here in this thread.
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is.
Protoss are using Obs and Terrans will scan ahead before engaging into a fight.
Personally I have the feeling that all my spies are getting killed before getting near my enemy.
Clearing Creep is normal, especially on maps like Whirlwind, not everybody is creeping like a 300APM Pro, you can lose track of your enemies movement pretty fast.
Moreover Corruption is pretty underused, so I thought giving Corruption a revealing effect on the targeted unit for the duration of the Spell could be a good use in lategame situations or counter to Air play.
As enemy you can see which of your units is under effect of the reveal, so you can risk getting in, or micro the Unit away.
In a spam situation you have to think twice before heading into a fight, the Dmg buff and the Vision it gives can be changing your outcome.
The you can scale the revealing duration, but 30s are half the duration of the Oracle revelation, after that you have a cooldown of 45s.
Maybe 15s is an too tiny opening window, but like i said, scaling it down to 20s or less shouldn't be too hard to be done.
Hope you like this idea or it's just enough to start a new discussion.
BoB
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On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
Hope it's ok when I'm posting my "Balance" idea here in this thread.
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is.
Protoss are using Obs and Terrans will scan ahead before engaging into a fight.
Personally I have the feeling that all my spies are getting killed before getting near my enemy.
Clearing Creep is normal, especially on maps like Whirlwind, not everybody is creeping like a 300APM Pro, you can lose track of your enemies movement pretty fast.
Moreover Corruption is pretty underused, so I thought giving Corruption a revealing effect on the targeted unit for the duration of the Spell could be a good use in lategame situations or counter to Air play.
As enemy you can see which of your units is under effect of the reveal, so you can risk getting in, or micro the Unit away.
In a spam situation you have to think twice before heading into a fight, the Dmg buff and the Vision it gives can be changing your outcome.
The you can scale the revealing duration, but 30s are half the duration of the Oracle revelation, after that you have a cooldown of 45s.
Maybe 15s is an too tiny opening window, but like i said, scaling it down to 20s or less shouldn't be too hard to be done.
Hope you like this idea or it's just enough to start a new discussion.
BoB
Zerg can easily deny observers (which leads to a pretty big problem fighting swarm hosts in my opinion), and zerg can send in one changling in at a time, making it very easy to always see where the enemy army is. I personally think that zerg has a pretty good time tracking armies between overlord spread watching for drops, and speedlings and changlings, as well as if you have a few mutas left over from earlier. These are all very fast or free units, I don't think zerg needs a buff in this regard.
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On August 19 2013 22:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote:
To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler +FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts.
His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play.
In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes.
Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for.
All the Korean zergs used different styles, but outside of maybe DRG they all had infestors as a crutch to fall back on. It's still abusive, even if they weren't doing pure Hive rushes. And Leenock used other abusive styles too, the mass muta switches versus protoss for instance. (Leenock is a great player obviously, but I think he is primarily clever rather than mechanically amazing, compare him to Soulkey for instance)
On August 19 2013 23:51 Orek wrote:
Over a million viewers now. How are you guys these days? SC2 scene may be slowing down, but the pace of balance discussion is accelerating, I feel.
It's because I started to get bored in these last few weeks of vacation and started posting in this thread a lot. :p
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On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
Hope it's ok when I'm posting my "Balance" idea here in this thread.
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is.
Protoss are using Obs and Terrans will scan ahead before engaging into a fight.
Between creep and overlords Zerg can keep track of armies anywhere on the map.
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On August 19 2013 20:37 willstertben wrote:
terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol.
gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that.
More like:
GOM system used to make it ridiculously hard to drop out of Code S.
Undeveloped metagames as a rule favour aggressive play.
The early map pool was very conducive to all-ins.
Terran infrastructure is very flexible in the early game - it's good for getting a small quantity of just about anything out fast.
People were bad at defending, and base defense in general is weak in this game.
=> Tons of Terrans win tons
=> Tons of Terrans get into Code S
=> Tons of Terrans never drop from Code S.
On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is.
The faction with the legal maphack has problems knowing where the enemy is? O_o'
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On August 20 2013 01:28 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 22:44 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote:
To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler +FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts.
His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play.
In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes.
Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for. All the Korean zergs used different styles, but outside of maybe DRG they all had infestors as a crutch to fall back on. It's still abusive, even if they weren't doing pure Hive rushes. And Leenock used other abusive styles too, the mass muta switches versus protoss for instance. (Leenock is a great player obviously, but I think he is primarily clever rather than mechanically amazing, compare him to Soulkey for instance)
Why is it abusive? It's not like you can go toe-to-toe against marines without splash. Infestors are the only splash option zerg gets in time when you don't go baneling/melee midgame.
And yeah, Leenock played(plays?) extremely strategical. I wish players like he, Nestea, Mvp, MC and TLO would (still) dominate the scene. They are putting the strategy into RTS.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:13 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 20:37 willstertben wrote:
terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol.
gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. More like: GOM system used to make it ridiculously hard to drop out of Code S. Undeveloped metagames as a rule favour aggressive play. The early map pool was very conducive to all-ins. Terran infrastructure is very flexible in the early game - it's good for getting a small quantity of just about anything out fast. People were bad at defending, and base defense in general is weak in this game. => Tons of Terrans win tons => Tons of Terrans get into Code S => Tons of Terrans never drop from Code S. Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is. The faction with the legal maphack has problems knowing where the enemy is? O_o'
As far as i know Gom TvTvTvT peaked during GSL October. As far as i know it's map pool was pretty darn macro (okay, i lied, 2 base timings that is i guess) oriented. And i would say that during that period meta was more or less developed. Agreed on format argument though (still i think that old GSL's Ro32 format with Bo3s would be better than both round robin and double elimination for groups).
And yes, it is easy to have problems with knowing stuff about your enemy with maphack. Imbatoss approves (reference to today's Go4SC2).
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On August 20 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:
Why is it abusive? It's not like you can go toe-to-toe against marines without splash. Infestors are the only splash option zerg gets in time when you don't go baneling/melee midgame.
Abusive stuff can be both abusive and necessary. Like, say, the Immortal allin in WoL PvZ. Or WoL Infestors. Or playing Yuri's Revenge as Yuri and Boomer rushing on a map with water - cheap as hell but gotta do it, it's not like that faction's navy is good for anything else at all.
Speaking of Marines and splash, some brave soul in WCS yesterday tried a funny thing: Hydra-heavy vs. Marine Tank. So equation for combat looks like: [Fragile DPS unit] vs. [ (better) fragile DPS unit + AoE support]. Guess who won? And people like clockwork were complaining about balance afterwards.
Btw, I'm starting to feel that creep does a big disservice to blings. Terran compulsively scans all the places to kill creep anyway so setting up defensive boobytraps is pretty hard.
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On August 20 2013 02:25 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 02:13 Coffee Zombie wrote:On August 19 2013 20:37 willstertben wrote:
terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol.
gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. More like: GOM system used to make it ridiculously hard to drop out of Code S. Undeveloped metagames as a rule favour aggressive play. The early map pool was very conducive to all-ins. Terran infrastructure is very flexible in the early game - it's good for getting a small quantity of just about anything out fast. People were bad at defending, and base defense in general is weak in this game. => Tons of Terrans win tons => Tons of Terrans get into Code S => Tons of Terrans never drop from Code S. On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is. The faction with the legal maphack has problems knowing where the enemy is? O_o' As far as i know Gom TvTvTvT peaked during GSL October. As far as i know it's map pool was pretty darn macro (okay, i lied, 2 base timings that is i guess) oriented. And i would say that during that period meta was more or less developed. Agreed on format argument though (still i think that old GSL's Ro32 format with Bo3s would be better than both round robin and double elimination for groups). And yes, it is easy to have problems with knowing stuff about your enemy with maphack. Imbatoss approves (reference to today's Go4SC2).
I was trying to say that it's hard to put that much stock on GomTvT as a balance indicator because of what happened earlier. Even if the meta was balanced it would've taken a long time to even out, let alone if there was even a minute amount of Terran advantage in that period's game balance. Most just use it to scream Terran imba like it was something radical : /
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On August 19 2013 02:37 Willzzz wrote:
It was figured out by cutting a few probes to get units out faster.
Reducing photon overcharge time by 15s or so would not bring back the 1-1-1.
Yes you could do that for the WoL version of the 1-1-1 and be fine. But in hots, you have no upgrade siege, cheaper cloak, and a 75 energy no upgrade seeker missile. Hots 1-1-1 would hit significantly faster than WoL
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 02:33 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 02:25 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 20 2013 02:13 Coffee Zombie wrote:On August 19 2013 20:37 willstertben wrote:
terran was slightly favored vs muta ling bling in wol.
gomtvtvtvt was a direct result from that. More like: GOM system used to make it ridiculously hard to drop out of Code S. Undeveloped metagames as a rule favour aggressive play. The early map pool was very conducive to all-ins. Terran infrastructure is very flexible in the early game - it's good for getting a small quantity of just about anything out fast. People were bad at defending, and base defense in general is weak in this game. => Tons of Terrans win tons => Tons of Terrans get into Code S => Tons of Terrans never drop from Code S. On August 20 2013 01:05 Sayscho BoB wrote:
I feel that Zerg has a tough time and one important aspect in the game is to know where the enemy army is. The faction with the legal maphack has problems knowing where the enemy is? O_o' As far as i know Gom TvTvTvT peaked during GSL October. As far as i know it's map pool was pretty darn macro (okay, i lied, 2 base timings that is i guess) oriented. And i would say that during that period meta was more or less developed. Agreed on format argument though (still i think that old GSL's Ro32 format with Bo3s would be better than both round robin and double elimination for groups). And yes, it is easy to have problems with knowing stuff about your enemy with maphack. Imbatoss approves (reference to today's Go4SC2). I was trying to say that it's hard to put that much stock on GomTvT as a balance indicator because of what happened earlier. Even if the meta was balanced it would've taken a long time to even out, let alone if there was even a minute amount of Terran advantage in that period's game balance. Most just use it to scream Terran imba like it was something radical : /
TvT may be best mirror, but too many mirrors start to look.... mirrored. So obviously people were not in love of that. Also, non-terran players. I personally was in opinion that only thing that looked blatantly imba in terran's side back then (GSL August-GSL November) was split map sitting around with ghosts (poor Nestea).
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The simplest and most elegant solution to warpgate issue is to make warpgate's unit cooldown much longer than gateway's unit build time. And make warpgate started with cooldown not completed. Of course this will need to go hand in hand with the buff to gateway units and nerf to robo units.
For example, now the zealot is 32s building time and 28s warp cooldown. Just make it 32s building time and 48s cooldown. Stalker is 42s building time and 32s warp cooldown. Just make it 42s building time and 60s cooldown.
In this way, you can't produce your regular army using warpgate. It will be too damn slow. And you need to transform the gateway to warpgate, and this will take 4-5 seconds. So warpgate becomes a option and a special tactic.
This is the most realistic change that Blizzard will accept.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 20 2013 03:10 larse wrote:
The simplest and most elegant solution to warpgate issue is to make warpgate's unit cooldown much longer than gateway's unit build time. And make warpgate started with cooldown not completed. Of course this will need to go hand in hand with the buff to gateway units and nerf to robo units.
For example, now the zealot is 32s building time and 28s warp cooldown. Just make it 32s building time and 48s cooldown. Stalker is 42s building time and 32s warp cooldown. Just make it 42s building time and 60s cooldown.
In this way, you can't produce your regular army using warpgate. It will be too damn slow. And you need to transform the gateway to warpgate, and this will take 4-5 seconds. So warpgate becomes a option and a special tactic.
This is the most realistic change that Blizzard will accept.
Well, then realistically there will be need in return of Khaydarin amulet in some form. Maybe (imo best way) implement it only for high templars, that are produced from gateway, not warp gate.
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Keeping warpgate in the game in a crippled state is not an elegant solution. If your dog bites people and is ruled dangerous at least have the decency to put it out of its misery, don't lock it behind bars for the rest of its life to prevent it from endangering people.
Blizzard is not going to change warpgate, in any case, so your change is equally as unrealistic as any other change. If you are going to fantasize about a brave new world with better protoss design, I think it's sensible to be more bold; to not give in to the temptation to be content with merely isolating and containing bad design elements, but instead to replace them with new and improved ones. The game need not only consist of reshuffled elements, that's a really desperate view of the creative process.
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United States15275 Posts
On August 19 2013 22:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote:
To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler +FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts.
His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play.
In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes.
Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for.
Leenock abused infestors and he abused strategies deliberately meant to cripple terran as they were desperately trying to catch up in economy. He was perfectly willing to still back and do nothing while assembling a pure infestor/BL army in many different games; he was worse than Curious or Symbol when he put his mind to it. He would even base trade purposely and have nothing left but infestors, knowing he would win the game. You act like I'm saying he was an inferior player by saying he was abusive.
On August 20 2013 02:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2013 01:28 Grumbels wrote:On August 19 2013 22:44 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote:
To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler +FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts.
His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play.
In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes.
Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for. All the Korean zergs used different styles, but outside of maybe DRG they all had infestors as a crutch to fall back on. It's still abusive, even if they weren't doing pure Hive rushes. And Leenock used other abusive styles too, the mass muta switches versus protoss for instance. (Leenock is a great player obviously, but I think he is primarily clever rather than mechanically amazing, compare him to Soulkey for instance) Why is it abusive? It's not like you can go toe-to-toe against marines without splash. Infestors are the only splash option zerg gets in time when you don't go baneling/melee midgame. And yeah, Leenock played(plays?) extremely strategical. I wish players like he, Nestea, Mvp, MC and TLO would (still) dominate the scene. They are putting the strategy into RTS.
I always felt that Nestea and TLO were particularly overrated in that department. They were great at using very specific builds at a certain point within a series, but overall they weren't particularly wizards at adaptation or mindgames. Mvp and MC were the only ones who was truly innovative, and MC had the advantage of no competition in that department for over a year. Leenock was a player who was very good at strategy but it would backfire as often as it worked (with the exception of ZvT). A lot of players are very strategic but no one gives them credit for it.
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On August 20 2013 04:30 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2013 22:44 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 22:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:On August 19 2013 22:22 Big J wrote:On August 19 2013 19:55 Grumbels wrote:
To be honest I've kind of repressed that period of Starcraft 2, but I do remember wondering why so many zergs would use mutalisk builds and then lose when they could abuse infestors. I felt like Leenock was the player that played the most abusive and therefore strongest style. Leenock was one of the most creative players around! He hardly ever played a straight up ling/infestor into infestor/broodlord style against Terran, people only remember him for his BL/Infestor because of the ZvP on Antiga against HerO. Leenock used a lot styles/builds in TvZ (following a short section from the TL Recaps of GSL season 5 group G; if you have never watched those games, especially the Leenock vs Bogus on Cloud Kingdom and the Leenock vs Keen on Whirlwind... WATCH THEM!): + Show Spoiler +FXOLeenock came into the group as a solid favorite to advance. His ZvT in general would have to be rated as a solid tier above the ones of Innovation and Keen, while Squirtle suffered from the large power shift between Zerg and Protoss. Gone are the days where you expect to see Leenock sometimes simply lose to Terran cheese and PvZ all-ins. He might have suffered a tough loss to Taeja last season, but his general consistency as evidenced by team league performances and hectic MLG tournaments is a real strength. Group play in Code S occupies a strange middle ground between careful preparation and rewarding consistency; Leenock has proven adept at both formats and the group play gave another indication of his prowess on both fronts.
His play against both Innovation and Keen was a tour de force of showing Zerg diversity and creativity. Against Innovation he was utterly dominant; it scarcely looked like the STX Soul player had any real chance of winning. The Cloud Kingdom game was a rare treat even from Leenock, a player known for his unorthodox builds. With early investment in lings, banelings and roaches, he attacked bringing queens with him to break the banshee defense of the Terran. It functioned as a delayed attack usually performed as an all-in, but with a third base he could saturate and with the time to bring queens, it ended up almost completely breaking the opponent. From an advantageous position, Leenock was able to finally get his drone count up and win with standard play.
In the games against Keen, Leenock relied on spire play throughout. While he lost the first game on Daybreak opting for the road less travelled in the midgame with mutalisk play, the two following games showcased once more his aggressive nature. With a two base heavy mutalisk opening on Whirlwind, he was able to cripple Keen utterly, punishing the game one victor’s lack of mobility and the lack of defense for a muta cloud that Leenock cleverly obfuscated through the early midgame. The last game was again decided early on, as Keen was helpless to repel a flood of roaches and banes.
Fascinatingly, Leenock used five very different builds in his five games against Terran this group. He was victorious in four, all of them featuring heavy deviations from the standard TvZ metagame. Meanwhile, he lost the only game where he looked to be playing standard, though one wonders just how standard midgame spire play really can be called at this point. However, we know that he is no slouch in a standard game either, so simply being able to execute such a wide variety of tactics must be a headache for any opponent coming up. Leenock has yet to taste ultimate victory in GSL, but between his excellent ZvZ and what is becoming a formidable list of strategies at his disposal, he must remain a heavy favorite to make it to the playoffs once again. Hence why he was abusive. Leenock was not only a player who was well-known for massing 30-40 infestors in the lategame, he was also willing to exploit the greedy openers Terrans used to catch up with all sorts of all-ins and timing attacks. We can discuss the metagame up and down in a different discussion and can call rushing a Terran who was cutting corners to have a chance against an imbalanced lategame "infestor abuse" as well there. But it would be nice if we'd use the word in the same way in a single discussion and don't change the meaning of it in the middle of the current discussion. so... What Grumbels called infestor abuse was playing straight up defensive infestors into broodlord rush. And NOT mixing in mutalisks or roaches or whatever early-midgame oriented play. Something that Leenock was not known for. Leenock abused infestors and he abused strategies deliberately meant to cripple terran as they were desperately trying to catch up in economy. He was perfectly willing to still back and do nothing while assembling a pure infestor/BL army in many different games; he was worse than Curious or Symbol when he put his mind to it. He would even base trade purposely and have nothing left but infestors, knowing he would win the game. You act like I'm saying he was an inferior player by saying he was abusive.
No, I don't think you try to make him sound inferior. But I don't get what part of that stuff is abusive. I mean, we can argue that mass Infestor play towards the end of WoL was abusive because everybody knew it was too strong.
But he was in no way "more abusive" than any of the other zergs in that regard. You say he was worse than Curious or Symbol when he put his mind to it which simply isn't true. Symbol and especially Curious did play those pure BL/Infestor + 50spine/spore games. Though I think neither of those 3 really did it vs Terran, those were basically always ZvP games. ZvTs would usually get more even the longer you waited with "the engagement".
And well, basetrading with an army that is better at basetrading yet might lose the combat isn't "abuse", it's a completely normal strategy. Just like it is not an "abuse" if you don't attack into swarmhost/spine/spore/corruptor, but drop against it or engage it from an unprotected angle.
It's funny that you think Mvp and MC were creative and TLO/Nestea were not and justify it with:
They were great at using very specific builds at a certain point within a series, but overall they weren't particularly wizards at adaptation or mindgames.
Because that is exactly what Mvp and MC are known for.
A lot of players are very strategic but no one gives them credit for it.
Partly true, partly not. There are players like Goody that are strategical geniusses, but then there are also players that just talk a lot of bullshit why you should do X or Y and it is so obvious that they are just doing a very situational thing and building on the fact that their opponent does not find out or reacts wrong.
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Btw, my definition of abusive: reducing the outcome of the game to one factor that feels like it should not be this significant. You can outplay someone in all facets of the game but one and it won't matter because you can't kill the death ball or because defensive positions are unbreakable or because you can't punish a race that can freely tech up or build up economy etc. There is always the response that, yeah, you did get outplayed because you failed to take this one thing into account, but it seems like it's exploiting a flaw in race/map design more so than excelling at the game.
(I just thought of it, there are probably better definitions. The key idea is that you find aspects of the game that are stronger than they have a right to be and to base your wins on them rather than outplaying your opponent in more acceptable fashion.)
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It's a problem but it's not the #1 problem. You must be new here. This issue has been discussed to death since 2010. Don't be too overexcited.
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EPT
