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sc2wow
7 Posts
point is we need these changes. the reason Z and T become op a lot of times is because P is imbalanced. by making P more balanced we can fix other matchups too things like swarmhosts can be changed and various other mechanics other races have that suck | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 06:37 larse wrote: It's a problem but it's not the #1 problem. You must be new here. This issue has been discussed to death since 2010. Don't be too overexcited. But he clearly knows the problems and how to solve them. They are listed on reddit, where all big things happen. I love the line "Please let the big names jump on this". On August 20 2013 06:39 sc2wow wrote: no i know and no im not new here point is we need these changes. the reason Z and T become op a lot of times is because P is imbalanced. by making P more balanced we can fix other matchups too things like swarmhosts can be changed and various other mechanics other races have that suck Oh but you are new. This stuff has been talked to death. Nothing you stated in your closed thread that looks just like that reddit post is new at all. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On August 20 2013 06:36 sc2wow wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1knwus/protoss_design_discussion/ upvote this please its the #1 problem atm with sc2 I think Protoss is in by far the best place its been since the beginning of SC2. PvP is finally a good matchup--there are a ton of viable builds but it isn't overly coinflippy, it rewards skill but allows for comebacks, and its' a generally tense matchup that allows for a decent amount of macro play without descending into turtlefests. And in PvT and PvZ we are seeing, for really the first time since SC2 started, a situation where the optimal way to play Protoss is not "timing attack, all-in, or turtle into deathball". Rather, nearly all of the best Protoss players are playing macro-oriented styles that incorporate harass and aggression throughout the game, but without simply going all-in. Even PartinG, he of the nonstop all-ins in WoL, has lately begun to play a style that is much more about combining good macro and defense with effective harassment throughout the game. Even the so-called "deathball" is typically much less Colossi-dependant these days, since new units like Vipers and Tempests counter them so hard, which has shifted the emphasis much more towards Templar play (generally universally agreed to be more skill-intensive and spectator friendly than Colossi). The biggest issue with WoL Protoss was that it was just very difficult to win before you got the ideal deathball comp, unless you executed some sort of timing attack or all-in. That just isn't true anymore, and as a result, Protoss has become vastly more fun and more watchable. It used to be that someone like HerO who really focuses on prim or air play and multitasking all over the map was an anomoly, and more and more that's becoming just the accepted way to play Protoss on the top level. That's a good thing. So I think any suggestion of "reboot the game and redesign Protoss from the ground up" are not only unrealistic, they're illogical. Protoss is better now than it has ever been in SC2, and there is little reason to think that the race is currently a major problem. The issues in Protoss matchups, like Terran's limited ability to do damage in early game TvP before medivacs come out, can be addressed by buffing the other races. But "why doesn't Blizzard reboot the game and force every Toss player to completely relearn the race and every non-toss player to completely relearn every matchup against Protoss?" is silly. Its not going to happen, and its far from clear that it even needs to. Right now, watching the best Protoss players in the world is fun. Its not like WoL, where MC was awesome for his personality, but his actual play rarely produced super awesome games. Watch First, or Rain, or sOs, and the gameplay itself is extremely enjoyable. Lots of different viable builds and compositions in each matchup, consistent macro games with lots of action all over the map throughout the game, and significant potential for comebacks in a way that makes for exciting turnarounds. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 20 2013 06:53 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think Protoss is in by far the best place its been since the beginning of SC2. PvP is finally a good matchup--there are a ton of viable builds but it isn't overly coinflippy, it rewards skill but allows for comebacks, and its' a generally tense matchup that allows for a decent amount of macro play without descending into turtlefests. And in PvT and PvZ we are seeing, for really the first time since SC2 started, a situation where the optimal way to play Protoss is not "timing attack, all-in, or turtle into deathball". Rather, nearly all of the best Protoss players are playing macro-oriented styles that incorporate harass and aggression throughout the game, but without simply going all-in. Even PartinG, he of the nonstop all-ins in WoL, has lately begun to play a style that is much more about combining good macro and defense with effective harassment throughout the game. Even the so-called "deathball" is typically much less Colossi-dependant these days, since new units like Vipers and Tempests counter them so hard, which has shifted the emphasis much more towards Templar play (generally universally agreed to be more skill-intensive and spectator friendly than Colossi). The biggest issue with WoL Protoss was that it was just very difficult to win before you got the ideal deathball comp, unless you executed some sort of timing attack or all-in. That just isn't true anymore, and as a result, Protoss has become vastly more fun and more watchable. It used to be that someone like HerO who really focuses on prim or air play and multitasking all over the map was an anomoly, and more and more that's becoming just the accepted way to play Protoss on the top level. That's a good thing. So I think any suggestion of "reboot the game and redesign Protoss from the ground up" are not only unrealistic, they're illogical. Protoss is better now than it has ever been in SC2, and there is little reason to think that the race is currently a major problem. The issues in Protoss matchups, like Terran's limited ability to do damage in early game TvP before medivacs come out, can be addressed by buffing the other races. But "why doesn't Blizzard reboot the game and force every Toss player to completely relearn the race and every non-toss player to completely relearn every matchup against Protoss?" is silly. Its not going to happen, and its far from clear that it even needs to. Right now, watching the best Protoss players in the world is fun. Its not like WoL, where MC was awesome for his personality, but his actual play rarely produced super awesome games. Watch First, or Rain, or sOs, and the gameplay itself is extremely enjoyable. Lots of different viable builds and compositions in each matchup, consistent macro games with lots of action all over the map throughout the game, and significant potential for comebacks in a way that makes for exciting turnarounds. I just watched that new protoss guy that reached grandfinals but lost 0-2, his semifinal match versus soulkey1 game1, he turtled on 3base, went heavy voidrays with a few colossous. Ok i dont remember every unit but it was so lame and boring I have seen so many games protoss just do this tactic, and not only with voidrays but other units aswell Action all over the place? Ye in a dream maybe to me, protoss is terrible as a race and its not fun for me to watch highpros like rain play even  | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On August 20 2013 06:40 Plansix wrote: But he clearly knows the problems and how to solve them. They are listed on reddit, where all big things happen. I love the line "Please let the big names jump on this". Oh but you are new. This stuff has been talked to death. Nothing you stated in your closed thread that looks just like that reddit post is new at all. I was talking to the guy who post the "upvote this please", not the reddit guy who wrote the article. Yes, he summarizes the arguments around Protoss redesign. But I don't think there aren't anything new in his reddit thread. They all have been talked here. And I like my solution better http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255254¤tpage=710#14193  | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Reddit being reddit upvotes eye catching if bad suggestions that were taken from previous threads about the same topic, as if we need more evidence that one shouldn't do game design by community vote, so it's not really productive but still worth checking out for LaLush's contributions. David Kim was on Climbing the Ladder the other day and did he give any indication whatsoever that they were going to replace warpgates, sentries and colossi with different mechanics? (hint: he didn't) At some point we have to give up complaining, it's one thing to do analysis/discussion of game mechanics, but quite another to try and create some sort of movement to get Blizzard to overhaul protoss design. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:16 Grumbels wrote: About that thread, I don't know why this 'redesign protoss' thing suddenly came up, I've seen lots of it the last few months on reddit. Is protoss in a particularly awful state at the moment that I don't know of? What has changed? Reddit being reddit upvotes eye catching if bad suggestions that were taken from previous threads about the same topic, as if we need more evidence that one shouldn't do game design by community vote, so it's not really productive but still worth checking out for LaLush's contributions. David Kim was on Climbing the Ladder the other day and did he give any indication whatsoever that they were going to replace warpgates, sentries and colossi with different mechanics? (hint: he didn't) At some point we have to give up complaining, it's one thing to do analysis/discussion of game mechanics, but quite another to try and create some sort of movement to get Blizzard to overhaul protoss design. "suddenly came up"??? You should scan this thread for a few minutes and you will realize that once a few pages, there will be a protoss redesign post. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:23 larse wrote: "suddenly came up"??? You should scan this thread for a few minutes and you will realize that once a few pages, there will be a protoss redesign post. For your benefit I scanned the last 30 pages and I found zero posts about warpgate being problematic outside of yours. You can't introduce topics on TL (presumably because nobody replied to your post here) and then claim that it's a constant discussion topic on TL. I don't see what changed about protoss play to make those threads more prevalent now than six months ago. | ||
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HowTroublesome
Canada3 Posts
Games tend to be heavy death-ball favoured in some match ups where X and Y race turtle and 'dance' around for final battle. However with expansions having greater distances between each other, this promotes harassment options and run-bys more. This will show spectators the players priorities (base defending, attack committing, etc) and how important scouting/map control/vision is. Another thing to note is that unit compositions will be diverse and will force players to use certain units with their roles in defending/harassing/attacking Some considerations that will be needed If bases are actually significantly further apart, races must be balanced in such a way that each race can get their army to respective expansion Zergs would utilize nydus networks more instead of an all-in perspective moving units from base to base. The current cost of nydus networks is rather expensive to be supporting unit transportation. So the cost should be reduced Protosses carry warp-in capabilities so I don't see much issue here. Terrans should have building movement speed increased (?) or they can use speed-boosts to move units to expansions. What are your thoughts? Zzzz | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On August 20 2013 06:36 sc2wow wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1knwus/protoss_design_discussion/ upvote this please its the #1 problem atm with sc2 Hahaha! I genuinely lol'ed. As they say, if you wait around long enough... yep, it's the same old shit back again: Protoss and WG and defender's advantage and "fix" Protoss and the gates of RTS paradise will open etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum. Comment like that makes me glad that Blizzard ignores community "feedback". Stay strong, Blizzard! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:16 Grumbels wrote: About that thread, I don't know why this 'redesign protoss' thing suddenly came up, I've seen lots of it the last few months on reddit. Is protoss in a particularly awful state at the moment that I don't know of? What has changed? Reddit being reddit upvotes eye catching if bad suggestions that were taken from previous threads about the same topic, as if we need more evidence that one shouldn't do game design by community vote, so it's not really productive but still worth checking out for LaLush's contributions. David Kim was on Climbing the Ladder the other day and did he give any indication whatsoever that they were going to replace warpgates, sentries and colossi with different mechanics? (hint: he didn't) At some point we have to give up complaining, it's one thing to do analysis/discussion of game mechanics, but quite another to try and create some sort of movement to get Blizzard to overhaul protoss design. Its been around forever, it will not die. Its is one of those endless discussion points that people bring up when they don't have much really to say. Its like saying "positional play" or "defenders advantage", which are just these vague overly broad comments people make about the game that don't really mean anything. Much like, "fix warpage", they will never go away as long at there are people complaining about SC2 rather than playing it. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot "elegant solution" and "elegant design". Those come up a lot too in the land of balance buzzwords. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:43 Plansix wrote: Its been around forever, it will not die. Its is one of those endless discussion points that people bring up when they don't have much really to say. Its like saying "positional play" or "defenders advantage", which are just these vague overly broad comments people make about the game that don't really mean anything. Much like, "fix warpage", they will never go away as long at there are people complaining about SC2 rather than playing it. Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot "elegant solution" and "elegant design". Those come up a lot too in the land of balance buzzwords. dont forget "low skill cap", "antimicro spells", "free units", "macro boosts" | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 07:53 Big J wrote: dont forget "low skill cap", "antimicro spells", "free units", "macro boosts" I knew I missed some in there. You know what the best part is about the design arguments. When people complain about "anti micro spells" but then rant and rave about how good Dota 2 is. If you want to see a game that is filled with one way stuns, slows and other BS that takes one click, Dota 2 is your game. What a spell that damages people if they mirco their unit, play Dota 2, it has the ultimate anti micro spell. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
Sure protoss is pretty bad once you starting playing people fast enough to abuse their mobility issues, but as the race with the best cheese, I can't say I would enjoy SC2 as a game if all 3 races were made to be straightforward. It barely holds my attention as a game as is. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 08:02 aZealot wrote: I'm ashamed to say this, but I like Starcraft 2. I know, I know, stone me now... Its ok, we have a support group where everyone can be accepted for who they are and what they love. Just come to the live report threads and ignore all the people whining about balance. They are there to remind us what life is when it is filled with hate and bitterness. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Fundamental design problems is my favorite. ^^ | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 20 2013 08:13 Grumbels wrote: Fundamental design problems is my favorite. ^^ That is the core of all design arguments. It is used to begin every argument. It says so much, while saying nothing at all. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On August 20 2013 08:02 aZealot wrote: I'm ashamed to say this, but I like Starcraft 2. I know, I know, stone me now... I'm with you on that. I like playing it, I really like watching it. Since HotS fixed PvP, there actually aren't any matchups I hate. There are lot of players of all 3 races who I enjoy watching. The number of people who devote tons of timing to watching, playing and analyzing a game they apparently despise sort of baffles me. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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