|
On August 18 2013 16:19 ReMinD_ wrote:
I'm gonna steer this discussion to a different direction for a sec.
I've been playing this game for 3 months and last night I realized something. All those matches and I haven't made a single Nydus Network. Not once. I didn't even think about doing it. I also watch a lot of streams and I can't recall the last time someone made that building. Then I looked at Liquipedia.
Nydus Network - 150 minerals, 200 gas.
Nydus Worm - 100 minerals, 100 gas. Build time: 20 secs, HP: 200
'Upon completion of the Nydus Worm, a global sound effect will be heard from all players.'
That reminded me why it's so bad. An investment of 250 minerals and 300 gas that can be killed by workers. And the global sound effect that warns your opponent.
Would it be game-breaking to make Nydus Worm cost 150 or 200 minerals and no gas? It seems like an interesting tool, one that would make the game more dynamic while not really affecting the balance too much. It could always be limited in other ways, like adding a cooldown so you can't just build one after the other.
The nydus was used a ton in early HOTS, but it's mainly used by overly aggressive/gimmicky zergs like Symbol and Hyvaa. That's because the nydus is extremely powerful. It can shift your WHOLE army to one location in a very short time. That means that if it's successful, you just outright win. It's not for harassment, it's for kill-moves. And those aren't terribly interesting for a spectator.
If it were more durable, it would be easier to just win with it. If it were less expensive, it wouldn't be all-in. A z would get to try to "just win" without much of an investment. And that would be unfair.
|
Nydus worm could use a buff, but I'd rather have them completely redesign it.
|
Id have them cut the cost by a good bit.
Perhaps 100 150 for network and 50 100 for worm?
|
On August 18 2013 18:02 ktimekiller wrote:
Id have them cut the cost by a good bit.
Perhaps 100 150 for network and 50 100 for worm?
Zerg have the biggest economy and wont use them anyways ... maybe not even if it was free. My respect for Zerg creativity is close to zero, because they have a lot of tools which are very powerful and require a one-time investment of only a little gas and minerals and they still wont use them. Burrow, Overlord drop and Nydus (which isnt a one-time investment, but its the same category).
- Zerg are whining about Widow Mines and dont use their own mines ... thats kinda stupid and lazy IMO.
- Zerg were (correctly) whining about Hellbat drops and yet they dont use their own drop capability for harrassment ... narrow minded IMO because you can easily force the defender back into his base and Mutalisks are too expensive to risk when the harrassment is dangerous due to defensive storm Templars or Marines or Turrets. Dropping a few Roaches will cause enough annoyance however and probably just as much damage as the Mutalisks would AND you can surprise your enemy with dropped Roaches even when he is scouting very well and would usually find a Spire.
Hardly any Zerg - ecept for TLO and maybe 1-2 others - will use the Nydus as a method to reduce travel time and the rest wont be able to really force their way into an enemy base, so there doesnt seem to be a point in talking about the Nydus. It is far too unpredictable and only TLO came up with the idea of lobbing a few Infested Terrans into the enemy base to defend the surfacing Nydus worm from the workers that would be able to kill it.
Protoss arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Carriers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper.
Terrans arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Battlecruisers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper.
Only Zerg seem to be asking for cheaper burrow, cheaper nydus, ...
|
On August 18 2013 18:50 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 18:02 ktimekiller wrote:
Id have them cut the cost by a good bit.
Perhaps 100 150 for network and 50 100 for worm? Zerg have the biggest economy and wont use them anyways ... maybe not even if it was free. My respect for Zerg creativity is close to zero, because they have a lot of tools which are very powerful and require a one-time investment of only a little gas and minerals and they still wont use them. Burrow, Overlord drop and Nydus (which isnt a one-time investment, but its the same category). - Zerg are whining about Widow Mines and dont use their own mines ... thats kinda stupid and lazy IMO. - Zerg were (correctly) whining about Hellbat drops and yet they dont use their own drop capability for harrassment ... narrow minded IMO because you can easily force the defender back into his base and Mutalisks are too expensive to risk when the harrassment is dangerous due to defensive storm Templars or Marines or Turrets. Dropping a few Roaches will cause enough annoyance however and probably just as much damage as the Mutalisks would AND you can surprise your enemy with dropped Roaches even when he is scouting very well and would usually find a Spire. Hardly any Zerg - ecept for TLO and maybe 1-2 others - will use the Nydus as a method to reduce travel time and the rest wont be able to really force their way into an enemy base, so there doesnt seem to be a point in talking about the Nydus. It is far too unpredictable and only TLO came up with the idea of lobbing a few Infested Terrans into the enemy base to defend the surfacing Nydus worm from the workers that would be able to kill it. Protoss arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Carriers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Terrans arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Battlecruisers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Only Zerg seem to be asking for cheaper burrow, cheaper nydus, ...
the bias is strong in this one. comparing 4,5 speed healing medivacs with HT 1,88 speed overlords or nydus that can be killed by workers or 1 marine/zealot/zergling. sure Z players dont use it since 4 years now because they are lazy. guess the 300-400 apm koreans are too lazy and dont want to earn money. such a biased statement. ovidrop and nydus are clearly UP and both medivacs and WP got speedbuffs. same is needed for ovis to make drop viable. nydus just unloads way too slow to be viable.
|
It looks like no-one can hear me 
|
On August 18 2013 18:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 18:50 Rabiator wrote:On August 18 2013 18:02 ktimekiller wrote:
Id have them cut the cost by a good bit.
Perhaps 100 150 for network and 50 100 for worm? Zerg have the biggest economy and wont use them anyways ... maybe not even if it was free. My respect for Zerg creativity is close to zero, because they have a lot of tools which are very powerful and require a one-time investment of only a little gas and minerals and they still wont use them. Burrow, Overlord drop and Nydus (which isnt a one-time investment, but its the same category). - Zerg are whining about Widow Mines and dont use their own mines ... thats kinda stupid and lazy IMO. - Zerg were (correctly) whining about Hellbat drops and yet they dont use their own drop capability for harrassment ... narrow minded IMO because you can easily force the defender back into his base and Mutalisks are too expensive to risk when the harrassment is dangerous due to defensive storm Templars or Marines or Turrets. Dropping a few Roaches will cause enough annoyance however and probably just as much damage as the Mutalisks would AND you can surprise your enemy with dropped Roaches even when he is scouting very well and would usually find a Spire. Hardly any Zerg - ecept for TLO and maybe 1-2 others - will use the Nydus as a method to reduce travel time and the rest wont be able to really force their way into an enemy base, so there doesnt seem to be a point in talking about the Nydus. It is far too unpredictable and only TLO came up with the idea of lobbing a few Infested Terrans into the enemy base to defend the surfacing Nydus worm from the workers that would be able to kill it. Protoss arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Carriers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Terrans arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Battlecruisers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Only Zerg seem to be asking for cheaper burrow, cheaper nydus, ... the bias is strong in this one. comparing 4,5 speed healing medivacs with HT 1,88 speed overlords or nydus that can be killed by workers or 1 marine/zealot/zergling. sure Z players dont use it since 4 years now because they are lazy. guess the 300-400 apm koreans are too lazy and dont want to earn money. such a biased statement. ovidrop and nydus are clearly UP and both medivacs and WP got speedbuffs. same is needed for ovis to make drop viable. nydus just unloads way too slow to be viable.
i dont see how overlord drops are underpowered. care to explain? right now neither Ts or Ps are expecting the drops and thus not preparing in the slightest, so every drop should have a reasonably easy time of going through and dealing damage.
|
On August 18 2013 19:14 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 18:57 Decendos wrote:On August 18 2013 18:50 Rabiator wrote:On August 18 2013 18:02 ktimekiller wrote:
Id have them cut the cost by a good bit.
Perhaps 100 150 for network and 50 100 for worm? Zerg have the biggest economy and wont use them anyways ... maybe not even if it was free. My respect for Zerg creativity is close to zero, because they have a lot of tools which are very powerful and require a one-time investment of only a little gas and minerals and they still wont use them. Burrow, Overlord drop and Nydus (which isnt a one-time investment, but its the same category). - Zerg are whining about Widow Mines and dont use their own mines ... thats kinda stupid and lazy IMO. - Zerg were (correctly) whining about Hellbat drops and yet they dont use their own drop capability for harrassment ... narrow minded IMO because you can easily force the defender back into his base and Mutalisks are too expensive to risk when the harrassment is dangerous due to defensive storm Templars or Marines or Turrets. Dropping a few Roaches will cause enough annoyance however and probably just as much damage as the Mutalisks would AND you can surprise your enemy with dropped Roaches even when he is scouting very well and would usually find a Spire. Hardly any Zerg - ecept for TLO and maybe 1-2 others - will use the Nydus as a method to reduce travel time and the rest wont be able to really force their way into an enemy base, so there doesnt seem to be a point in talking about the Nydus. It is far too unpredictable and only TLO came up with the idea of lobbing a few Infested Terrans into the enemy base to defend the surfacing Nydus worm from the workers that would be able to kill it. Protoss arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Carriers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Terrans arent "coming to the conclusion" of ... hardly anyone builds Battlecruisers, so lets ask Blizzard to make them cheaper. Only Zerg seem to be asking for cheaper burrow, cheaper nydus, ... the bias is strong in this one. comparing 4,5 speed healing medivacs with HT 1,88 speed overlords or nydus that can be killed by workers or 1 marine/zealot/zergling. sure Z players dont use it since 4 years now because they are lazy. guess the 300-400 apm koreans are too lazy and dont want to earn money. such a biased statement. ovidrop and nydus are clearly UP and both medivacs and WP got speedbuffs. same is needed for ovis to make drop viable. nydus just unloads way too slow to be viable. i dont see how overlord drops are underpowered. care to explain? right now neither Ts or Ps are expecting the drops and thus not preparing in the slightest, so every drop should have a reasonably easy time of going through and dealing damage.
if that would be the case high level koreans would use it. its 4 years now and T and P drops got even buffed in HOTS since players got better at defending. yet Z drops which was already the by far most underused one isnt buffed at all and still some biased players say its fine. it is not fine. its like going to storm your opponents mineral line with a HT that WALKS across the map. that is how slow "speed"ovis are. which means even a gold player sees it from a mile away coming + you most likely lose all your overlords + all units with it since they are so slow. its just not cost efficient and even players like TLO stopped doing it basically (maybe he uses it every now and then but havent seen it in a while) + high level koreans dont use them at all. saying those pros are too lazy to use them while they earn their freaking money with it is just...yeah i wont say it but you know what i mean...
|
4713 Posts
I think all of you people are missing a huge point regarding zerg design in conjuncture with their drops and nydus play.
Zerg, by design has the most swarmy army. To combat this terran and protosses build walls and sim cities to aid in the defense of bases. If the zerg's methods to circumvent terrain, sim cities and forcefields are too good, then zerg becomes too strong because, a lot of times, what is standing between zergs and victory is a supply wall or a GW wall.
The other issue is mobility, zerg is already the most mobile of all the races up until super late game, due to creep spread and speed upgrades. The zerg's mobility right now is so good that it makes other options redundant, why make nyduses when speedlings on creep run faster then a phoenix can fly?
If you where to say, buff zerg drops and nydus to the point they become a viable option, they would be too good in conjuncture with their speed.
I'm sorry to say but, by design, if you want better drops and/or better Nydus some of the speed of the swarm needs to be toned down, either removing the speed creep provides or tone down the upgrades or both, depending on the magnitude of the buffs you want in the other areas.
Also on the topic of drops, the zergs vehicle of transport the Overlord, actually doesn't contribute to the drop at all, the medivac can heal stuff and use its bursts of speed to annoy the enemy and stretch his multi-tasking, the warp prism acts as a staging area to warp in more units, the overlord does literally nothing .
So, keep all of the above in mind, especially the issues of mobility and defenses, in mind the next time you request a drop or nydus buff, as far as I'm concerned they are best left as they are right now unless zerg receives changes in other areas at the same time.
|
zerg is so broken for a long period because it is stuck at lair units and last month or two it is impossible to get proper hive tech (we are talking about MU where two players of same or similar skill are playing)... toss can make phoenixes and zealots from three bases whole game and 5 bases zerg will be fucked if he makes corruptors/mutas/lings.. he has to add infestors with poor fungals.. so, P will have from 3 bases army to smash zerg with 5 bases (SK vs Sora)...
Zerg can outclass terran but 1 tier units will smash everything after upgrades kick in.. 4M >>>>> zerg.. soulkey outplayed innovation but terran wins in similar skills contest and it is so painful to watch........ this is heart of the SWARM and zerg is from the beginning shitty race with shitty new units (swarm hosts LOL = shit, vipers are ok but against 4M T useless and they are too expensive to counter properly 200/200 protoss)...
same thing, protoss players with similar skill will always beat terran players because it is almost impossible to counter whatever toss throws.....
i can't remember when the game was so broken.. maybe at times when fungals ate everything, but that was nerfed very fast and we weren't watching zerg champions, there was some balance..
|
This has been probably said like a million times, but I just want to let off some steam. Bear with me.
ZvT is just so difficult for the zerg because terran gets 3-3 upgrades so much easier and faster and they don't have to transition to anything. Just keep making biomine, which is probably the most cost efficient unit composition in the game.
And meanwhile, zerg has to keep making gas heavy units to defend the terran's pushes (banes against the bio, mutas against the medivacs), squeeze in an infestation pit and hive to get 3-3 (do this at the wrong moment and you're dead instantly), and then transition to ultras (which btw are really fucking expensive). Oh and you also need infestors. So much gas needed.
I'm by no means a pro (merely a mid masters zerg), but ZvT looks so sad at the moment... Also, I'm biased.
|
So Soulkey does a roach bane all in both games and Zergs are still complaining about balance?
Is this hypocritical or what, so Zergs should be able to all in and transition into late game better than Terran?
|
So, is anyone else kind of sick of the balance at the moment?
It seems all the design flaws that SC2 introduced have come to a head, making the game not enjoyable to watch. Soulkey vs Innovation comes to mind. Exciting games...two top tier players...but it just seemed like Zerg had no options or window to transition into a Tier 3 army. Despite Soulkey's best effort to shutdown Terran bases...he can't be everywhere at once. In a low eco situation Terran just calls down 10+ MULES at one base and has an insane economy to re-max while Zerg is just sitting there with Ling/Bane/Muta. Just a really poor way to end such a good game.
I've been watching less and less. The more casual audience will continue to watch because of pew pew laz0rs, banelings, and flailing body part physics, but the deeper value behind the game is missing.
Kinda miss Brood War and it's design/balance. Not perfectly balanced, but the maps can be changed to determine that. A lot more strategical and positional play. Lurkers and Siege tanks come to mind. Defilers too.
The Sonic Tournament (SRT) has reignited my interest in that game. In Brood War there was a good answer for just about every unit and ability. StarCraft 2 doesn't seem that way.
Oh well, there's always hope for Legacy of the Void. I know StarCraft 2 is a new/different game, but Blizzard really needs to re-examine why StarCraft: Brood War lasted as such an amazing eSport for 10+ years.
Anyone feel the same way?
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:00 Lock0n wrote:
So Soulkey does a roach bane all in both games and Zergs are still complaining about balance?
Is this hypocritical or what, so Zergs should be able to all in and transition into late game better than Terran?
You can move ahead and watch games, where Soulkey was not doing roach-bane all-in. It ended even worse, thank to Innovation not bothering to troll him back then.
|
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'.
|
On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'.
Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'.
Ideas? I really loved Nydus in brood war, made for some nice way to be everywhere on map, while being easy-to-snipe in that regard. Seriously, cheap, MINERAL-ONLY defensive nydus is pretty good idea IMO.
On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again.
Am, i always thought BC-Raven-Ghost is a single ultimate composition. Turns out i was wrong T_T
|
4713 Posts
On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'.
See my post, above, but in short you can't make Nydus better without nerfing or rebalancing zerg's mobility in other areas.
|
On August 18 2013 07:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Generally speaking, when Z has mutas left when ultras pop it isnt because they "retained" mutas, its that they kept producing to stay at a certain number so that they have drop defense. Also, why do people ignore me  "How many times do you see Z get 90 drones with mutaling bling? You say standard like it happens all the time, but I very rarely see it happen... Usually it is 3 base near saturation and then maybe the 4th has gas drones (and they pull drones from their main/nat to get minerals there as the main at least will be running out of minerals)." And why is Z the only race that is making it supposedly standard to get 90 workers? Theoretically, T would be ideal for 90 workers. 4-5 bases worth of workers + mules and you can have 50+ supply army production every 35 seconds. Or even protoss warpgates.... pushing out 20 zealots on the front line. Every race benefits from higher income, but generally Z is the only one that uses it... why?
No, it cannot work. Even Protoss with their huge supply-efficiency in lategame PvT would get rolled if they tried 90 probes in this scenario. Warping 20 zealots isn't interesting if your army got bashed so badly Terran still has 15 Ghosts 30 Marines 10 Medivacs left from the previous engagement. You also forgot to factor the cost of production; Zerg's production costs nothing, while the other races need to invest more resources to increase their production (the Terran one in particular is expensive with add-ons). Neither Terran nor Protoss can build 15 workers at once to instantly jump from 75 to 90. Games like the one you saw in which jjakji produce out of 15 rax are extremely rare, and it only happened because jjakji had already won. The three races don't have the same ability to secure expansions, the same supply-efficiency and overall the same dynamics.
On August 18 2013 16:19 ReMinD_ wrote:
I'm gonna steer this discussion to a different direction for a sec.
I've been playing this game for 3 months and last night I realized something. All those matches and I haven't made a single Nydus Network. Not once. I didn't even think about doing it. I also watch a lot of streams and I can't recall the last time someone made that building. Then I looked at Liquipedia.
Nydus Network - 150 minerals, 200 gas.
Nydus Worm - 100 minerals, 100 gas. Build time: 20 secs, HP: 200
'Upon completion of the Nydus Worm, a global sound effect will be heard from all players.'
That reminded me why it's so bad. An investment of 250 minerals and 300 gas that can be killed by workers. And the global sound effect that warns your opponent.
Would it be game-breaking to make Nydus Worm cost 150 or 200 minerals and no gas? It seems like an interesting tool, one that would make the game more dynamic while not really affecting the balance too much. It could always be limited in other ways, like adding a cooldown so you can't just build one after the other.
Yes, cheaper Nydus to buff horrible gimmicks like 2-bases Roach Nydus in TvZ is exactly what SC2 needs. More coinflips!
Yes, morphing Nydus can be killed by workers, and fortunately so, because otherwise they would be unstoppable. Still, workers don't auto-pull to kill them, so it requires attention, and you can easily distract your opponent (see Bomber vs Symbol, Daybreak, for instance; or FanTaSy vs TRUE, Akilon Wastes; the first Nydus are denied, but Zerg keeps trying while attacking head-on and eventually one goes through). The global sound effect is irrelevant most of the time because in TvZ you've already lost if a Nydus completes in your base anyway, unless you were going for a 2-bases timing or something.
|
On August 18 2013 20:05 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2013 20:04 ReMinD_ wrote:
Yes, Terrans are very innovative. I constantly see them coming up with new strategies and unit compositions. Oh wait, that's right. There's that one ultimate unit composition they have.
Anyway, I thought this was a 'Balance Discussion' thread. Since Widow Mine posts aren't getting anywhere, why not discuss a bit about Nydus? There's ways to make it more used without making it overpowered or 'all-inish'. Your statement is dumb. There's not one single ultimate composition, but only one viable composition. Nerf biomine all you want, but you better make up for it and buff other aspects, or we will see supreme reign of Zergs once again.
I don't understand why they don't just buff the Siege Tank again. Such an interesting unit with positional play. Flash suggested they reduce the supply from 3 to 2. I'd like to see Beta damage back. Would hopefully give incentive to mech, or at least go Bio/Tank again in TvZ. Widow Mines are just so much better at the Siege Tank's job in TvZ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
