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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:51 GreenGringo wrote: If you put it that way...forcefields are like a super high-level version of WoL fungal growth. Some zergs are still salty about the IdrA vs Chruncher match I guess  | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:51 GreenGringo wrote: If you put it that way...forcefields are like a super high-level version of WoL fungal growth. Please elaborate. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12620 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:23 willstertben wrote: immortal allin and protoss doesnt do big mistakes? protoss wins every time. lategame and zerg doesnt do big mistakes? zerg wins every time. Immortal all-in and BL/infestor was exactly the same thing. Yeah. I wish there was a way to make this quote stick to your name, so that every time you post I'd be remembered why I should never read again. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
The main difference is, putting your army into the right position and cutting off their army with force fields is hugely more difficult than targeting your opponent's army. That's why FF is the super-high level version | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On August 16 2013 20:21 GreenGringo wrote: Starcraft 2 is more balanced than it's ever been...and the game is dying. It's dying because the guy who's been endowed with absolute dominion over the game is an experienced kid who doesn't have a creative bone in his body. Yes, the game is balanced...but at what cost? There is no variety for Zerg, there is minimal variety for Terran. Protoss has variety, but absolutely no opportunities for harassment and fun, energetic games other than suiciding waves of zealots, like in WoL. Compare it to DotA2 and it's just not a contest. I don't think there's any point in comparing it to a moba, that's an apples and oranges thing. Even a terrible game of SC2 is more interesting to me than the greatest Dota match you've ever seen, and that's because I find mobas incredibly dull. What's frustrating though is that we're dealing with a company that already set the gold standard for RTS gameplay with BW, and yet they're stubbornly refusing to apply lessons from it that could make SC2 a much better game. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
They might of well just made BW with better graphics because this game doesn't distinguish itself enough. I remember first time seeing units like the carrier or lurker and just wanting to make 1000 of them. Fun to use cool to watch in action. Sc2 totally lacks that feel. If you wanted someone to think SC2 was cool what would you show them? Tempest? BCs that die to units 1/5 their size in 3 seconds? Colossi is sorta cool till you realize it isn't very fun to use. Even the Sunken was cooler graphically than a spine crawler. SC2 is def fun and I do enjoy the game and watching but it needed to push the envelope further and even the reality is the expansion added nothing to the game aside from mines we still see basically the same game. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11112 Posts
On August 16 2013 20:58 Rabiator wrote: If you analyze Terran you will notice that the reason for the units which are produced and used most is that they can be made by a building with a reactor on it. The only notable exception is the Marauder. I have come to the conclusion that the bad part actually is the asymmetric production speed boosts for the three races and since there is no acceptable way to "fix them" by adding more units to the list of boosted production the only viable option is to take every single one of the production speed boosts out of the game. That would actually solve more issues because you would have to take out economic speed boosts as well since Chronoboost and Inject Larva are both production and economy boosts; people have complained about the MULE for some time and I can understand the problem they have with it (although I dont think it is a problem myself). With production speed boosts (i.e. the reactor) gone Terrans have a bigger incentive to build gas-heavy units because they offer greater power for each production cycle. Chrono boost would be a production boost if protoss hadn't be pre-emptively nerfed so things dont come out at a decent tie without chrono and gateway units did stuff. Chrono is objectively the weakest and worst "macro" mechanic. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:41 Sabu113 wrote: Chrono boost would be a production boost if protoss hadn't be pre-emptively nerfed so things dont come out at a decent tie without chrono and gateway units did stuff. Chrono is objectively the weakest and worst "macro" mechanic. That balances out with Warp Gate ... which is the best production speed boost. For Terrans it is the other way round with Reactors as the absolute worst production speed boost (requiring build time, resources and only getting a boost for the most basic units) and the best economic boost (MULE). The "Zerg combo" is the most powerful one in the late game and the weakest one in the very early game ... because of the nature of Zerg production coming all from the same larvae. Zerg production became a bit too powerful with the ability to "stockpile production slots". That would be ok if the units were significantly weaker than those of the other races, but you can overrun Stalkers without Blink or Forcefields with simple Zerglings. Btw ... Chronoboost is the Protoss economic boost and only the upgrades have been adjusted in time IMO. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 16 2013 22:35 Elldar wrote: Well, you can't buff zealots and stalkers then nerf forcefields because of warp gates, the 4-wg rushes and such would gain so much more power if you buffed mainly the stalker and then we have blink has well which improve the stalker exponentially. So it is not just to change one thing and all is fine type of problem. Thats exactly the point ... Forcefields are NEEDED as a CRUTCH to make Protoss units work. The big point is that in BW Protoss didnt need either Blink or Forcefield because the unit density was low enough to not surround the Dragoons instantly and thus the Protoss had at least a chance ... and due to the lower unit density part of the Zerg units could be killed before they reached the Protoss. Thus ... if you want to get rid of Forcefield you need to get rid of the super unit density in SC2 and lower it to BW levels ... P.S.: Forcefields arent really OP IMO, but they - and Blink - are a skill to master before you can really become good at Protoss. None of the other two races has such skills to master and the only thing that really comes to mind is Marine-splitting vs Banelings. So removing them or not depends on game design decisions ... which isnt the same as balance decisions. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On August 17 2013 01:59 GreenGringo wrote: In both cases, there's nothing your opponent can do about it if it's executed competently. The main difference is, putting your army into the right position and cutting off their army with force fields is hugely more difficult than targeting your opponent's army. That's why FF is the super-high level version So when you had fungal you did not have to put your army in a good position and finding and fungaling different groups of bio across the battle field is easier than spam force field in straight line? Besides rarely were the bio that grouped up if the terran pushed properly. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On August 17 2013 02:33 FLuE wrote: Now that I'm done with SC2, I'm wondering whether Red Alert 3 was the better game.SC2 simply didn't push the RTS genre forward. 10 years after BW and we get crap like FFs and Fungal growth. Really? That's fun to watch or use to play with? In RA3, you had constant engagements air, land and sea. Harassment options were limitless. Nobody could turtle or you'd just tech to super weapons. The meta-game could never have been stagnant because every tech tier was important. I'd argue that RA3 was the better and more creative game, but SC2 enjoyed more support and had bigger starting competitive scene as a result of BW. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:12 Elldar wrote: So when you had fungal you did not have to put your army in a good position and finding and fungaling different groups of bio across the battle field is easier than spam force field in straight line? Besides rarely were the bio that grouped up if the terran pushed properly. Please tell me your not trying to argue fungal was somehow harder than forcefields. Even if for some reason the bio was split up, its simple targeting clicks. Forcefields aren't just "spam in a straight line" if you miss by any amount the units leak through and kill all your stuff. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:22 Wingblade wrote: Please tell me your not trying to argue fungal was somehow harder than forcefields. Even if for some reason the bio was split up, its simple targeting clicks. Forcefields aren't just "spam in a straight line" if you miss by any amount the units leak through and kill all your stuff. If you miss one by a little you are fine. If you miss at many places with little then you are not fine. And putting down a force field is just target clicking so they are as hard to execute. But you mean that it were no drawback with fungal and chain fungaling was too easy then you are right, but fungaling a whole army were as easy as splitting up an army with force fields. | ||
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GreenGringo
349 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:25 Elldar wrote:If you miss one by a little you are fine. If you miss at many places with little then you are not fine. And putting down a force field is just target clicking so they are as hard to execute. But you mean that it were no drawback with fungal and chain fungaling was too easy then you are right, but fungaling a whole army were as easy as splitting up an army with force fields. This is the stuff of fever dreams and phantasms.You miss a fungal and you still catch most of the units. The other is miss a force field and you let zerglings in and lose your sentries. But really, why do I bother? This is 2 + 2 = 4. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:36 GreenGringo wrote: This is the stuff of fever dreams and phantasms. You miss a fungal and you still catch most of the units. The other is miss a force field and you let zerglings in and lose your sentries. But really, why do I bother? This is 2 + 2 = 4. You miss a forcefield, you get most of the army, and the rest can kill your sentries. You miss a fungal, you get most of the army, and the rest can kill your infestors. You can't compare best-case fungal miss with worst-case forcefield miss. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On August 17 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote: That balances out with Warp Gate ... which is the best production speed boost. For Terrans it is the other way round with Reactors as the absolute worst production speed boost (requiring build time, resources and only getting a boost for the most basic units) and the best economic boost (MULE). The "Zerg combo" is the most powerful one in the late game and the weakest one in the very early game ... because of the nature of Zerg production coming all from the same larvae. Zerg production became a bit too powerful with the ability to "stockpile production slots". That would be ok if the units were significantly weaker than those of the other races, but you can overrun Stalkers without Blink or Forcefields with simple Zerglings. Btw ... Chronoboost is the Protoss economic boost and only the upgrades have been adjusted in time IMO. yes Zerglins are too stronk! Pro-tip, you need carriers vs zergling ok!? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
The only reason it worked is zerg would always go up to three base before lair and not go either fast muta or hydras. Either of those demolished the allin. Life did it right near the end of WoL and Stephano was doing it for a while too. | ||
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willstertben
427 Posts
On August 17 2013 05:20 Qikz wrote: I can't believe people still complain about the immortal all in. The only reason it worked is zerg would always go up to three base before lair and not go either fast muta or hydras. Either of those demolished the allin. Life did it right near the end of WoL and Stephano was doing it for a while too. thats shit because if you 2 base vs protoss they just, you know, DONT do the allin, get a 3rd and then 3 base colossus allin you and there is literally 0 you can do. but why are you discussing wol? those days are over. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On August 17 2013 04:43 fdsdfg wrote: You miss a forcefield, you get most of the army, and the rest can kill your sentries. You miss a fungal, you get most of the army, and the rest can kill your infestors. You can't compare best-case fungal miss with worst-case forcefield miss. Really? Are we comparing Protoss stuff and Zerg stuff? We have a balance designed thread and a major balance problem in TvZ and we're talking about Protoss and Zerg? | ||
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