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On August 16 2013 21:43 Grumbels wrote:
Starcraft 2's curse is that it's not bad enough to warrant a complete make-over, but not good enough to keep everyone happy, I guess.
No. Starcraft 2's curse is that Blizzard has turned the game into an economic simulation with some action elements ... and the community fails to notice that the increased army dps - sold to them as "improvements" the sort of unlimited unit control and "better" pathing - increase the effect of chance on the results of the game ... slowly turning the game more and more into a "perfectly 50/50 balanced coinflip game".
On August 16 2013 22:03 FLuE wrote:
Listening to David Kim on CtL was disappointing. No creativity and a total disconnect between him and the community. I just feel we are getting the game he thinks is fun, and not what actually is. I mean he defended force fields as something in the game that can really display high level pro skill. Really? Spamming and clicking? It's the most forgiving spell in RTS history. Even gold level players can spam decent force fields. If I had a dollar everytime a caster said "those were some bad force fields" I'd have 2 dollars. All you ever hear is great force fields! Sorry it is not fun to watch Toss players spam FF.
He also didn't understand why warp gate was broken stating they don't want Protoss to make units the same way Terran does. Really? Do we care?
Game might be balanced with him in charge but it will never be creative or dynamic.
The problem of David Kim (and Dustin Browder) is that he/they are too convinced that they are doing the right thing. They have zero "quality control" for their own decisions and dont objectively criticise their own decisions. To do that you need to think about stuff like "what would happen to Protoss without Forcefields and could the units be changed in a way to be balanced and not OP?". Maybe the devs are surrounded by a bunch of bootlickers or maybe critics in the company are ejected from the company for being "counterproductive". No idea ... the fact is they really need an objective and smart person to check all their decisions for obviously stupid mistakes .... and this includes the basic general mechanics!
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On August 16 2013 05:19 LSN wrote:
the only way of buffing hydras I could think of right now is removing the +1 range upgrade and give them +1 range. Same with speed buff would create possibly imbalanced all-in timings. Buffing dmg would make them way too strong. Upgrading health would make them replacing roaches.
Another approach is to give roaches +1 armor and reduce health a bit so they die faster vs immortals/maurauder and stay alive longer vs marines/zealots. In general I think this would be the right thing to do and after doing this look how other stuff balances out and do other changes. This way alot of roaches could force terran into metal while zerg gives up mobility and the metagame would completely change. ZvZ would not change cause its anyway roach only right now ;-).
After all I think swarmhosts should become a support unit that doesnt benefit so much from high numbers but gets stronger in low numbers. This could be tested with increasing their supply costs drastically and reducing their building costs or let them spawn more locusts + drastically increased supply costs. Also making them available with lair but keeping the upgrade at infestation pit could work well in combination with this.
One supply Hydralisk? :p
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On August 16 2013 22:03 FLuE wrote:Listening to David Kim on CtL was disappointing. No creativity and a total disconnect between him and the community. I just feel we are getting the game he thinks is fun, and not what actually is. I mean he defended force fields as something in the game that can really display high level pro skill. Really? Spamming and clicking? It's the most forgiving spell in RTS history. Even gold level players can spam decent force fields. If I had a dollar everytime a caster said "those were some bad force fields" I'd have 2 dollars. All you ever hear is great force fields! Sorry it is not fun to watch Toss players spam FF. That is simply not true and only a biased Zerg or Terran could ever hold such an uninformed opinion. There's actually a huge difference between Parting-level force fields and those of a gold player. Arguably force field micro is far more demanding than stop-stutter or splitting against banelings or whatever it is that you consider to be real micro.
There's many reasons why Kim is clueless and has no idea how to make a good RTS. His comment on force field micro was not one of them.
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On August 16 2013 22:13 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 21:43 Grumbels wrote:
Starcraft 2's curse is that it's not bad enough to warrant a complete make-over, but not good enough to keep everyone happy, I guess. No. Starcraft 2's curse is that Blizzard has turned the game into an economic simulation with some action elements ... and the community fails to notice that the increased army dps - sold to them as "improvements" the sort of unlimited unit control and "better" pathing - increase the effect of chance on the results of the game ... slowly turning the game more and more into a "perfectly 50/50 balanced coinflip game". Come on. This is all so incredibly dumb.
Terran's big buff was widow mines and more sustainable bio, not DPS. Protoss's buff was the mothership core, not DPS. Zerg's was swarm hosts and a ton of other boring shit, not DPS.
There's many reasons why the game is dying, but please give VALID reasons when making your point. Otherwise Kim will defend his bad decisions by going after the strawman arguments in the community as if he's a fucking Mythbuster.
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On August 16 2013 22:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 22:03 FLuE wrote:Listening to David Kim on CtL was disappointing. No creativity and a total disconnect between him and the community. I just feel we are getting the game he thinks is fun, and not what actually is. I mean he defended force fields as something in the game that can really display high level pro skill. Really? Spamming and clicking? It's the most forgiving spell in RTS history. Even gold level players can spam decent force fields. If I had a dollar everytime a caster said "those were some bad force fields" I'd have 2 dollars. All you ever hear is great force fields! Sorry it is not fun to watch Toss players spam FF. That is simply not true and only a biased Zerg or Terran could ever hold such an uninformed opinion. There's actually a huge difference between Parting-level force fields and those of a gold player. Arguably force field micro is far more demanding than stop-stutter or splitting against banelings or whatever it is that you consider to be real micro. There's many reasons why Kim is clueless and has no idea how to make a good RTS. His comment on force field micro was not one of them.
It is a fact that you NEED Forcefields - a crowd control spell - to actually make Stalkers and Zealots worth it. In WoW they massively nerfed crowd control spells because they knew they are properly powerful, but for SC2 they are ok? Not really. So the whole "crowd control spells in an RTS" makes the whole design of a game seem to be done by a bunch of clueless guys who didnt bother thinking about the negative effects of things they put into the game.
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On August 16 2013 22:16 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 22:03 FLuE wrote:Listening to David Kim on CtL was disappointing. No creativity and a total disconnect between him and the community. I just feel we are getting the game he thinks is fun, and not what actually is. I mean he defended force fields as something in the game that can really display high level pro skill. Really? Spamming and clicking? It's the most forgiving spell in RTS history. Even gold level players can spam decent force fields. If I had a dollar everytime a caster said "those were some bad force fields" I'd have 2 dollars. All you ever hear is great force fields! Sorry it is not fun to watch Toss players spam FF. That is simply not true and only a biased Zerg or Terran could ever hold such an uninformed opinion. There's actually a huge difference between Parting-level force fields and those of a gold player. Arguably force field micro is far more demanding than stop-stutter or splitting against banelings or whatever it is that you consider to be real micro. There's many reasons why Kim is clueless and has no idea how to make a good RTS. His comment on force field micro was not one of them.
They are boring, forgiving, and game breaking from a creativity standpoint. I play random and FF micro is very easy micro compared to pretty much anything else in the game that is considered micro intensive. They are not fun to watch, not fun to play against, and not fun to use at this point. Obviously parting and a gold level player are not on the same level but from a viewer standpoint it is not so amazing to see parting FF because all pros rarely mess up FF. if it was so hard was do casters never say anything but "great FF." amazing FF got old 3 months into WoL. Perhaps if overlapping FF broke each other than it would be more impressive. As it stands now it is very forgiving. Only a Protoss player such as yourself would claim how difficult FF are. They aren't and ruin opportunities for Protoss to be better balanced and not so timing and FF dependent when dealing with gateway units.
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On August 16 2013 22:23 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 22:13 Rabiator wrote:On August 16 2013 21:43 Grumbels wrote:
Starcraft 2's curse is that it's not bad enough to warrant a complete make-over, but not good enough to keep everyone happy, I guess. No. Starcraft 2's curse is that Blizzard has turned the game into an economic simulation with some action elements ... and the community fails to notice that the increased army dps - sold to them as "improvements" the sort of unlimited unit control and "better" pathing - increase the effect of chance on the results of the game ... slowly turning the game more and more into a "perfectly 50/50 balanced coinflip game". Come on. This is all so incredibly dumb. Terran's big buff was widow mines and more sustainable bio, not DPS. Protoss's buff was the mothership core, not DPS. Zerg's was swarm hosts and a ton of other boring shit, not DPS. There's many reasons why the game is dying, but please give VALID reasons when making your point. Otherwise Kim will defend his bad decisions by going after the strawman arguments in the community as if he's a fucking Mythbuster.
Really? Selectively forgetting the MEDIVAC TURBOBOOST, the ORACLE (which has about the fastest killing speed when it comes to workers) and the Viper with its ABDUCT spell which allows the Zerg to kill Colossi (or similar big and expensive units) in half a second and without any countermeasure is not a good thing ... You totally focused on the wrong stuff when it comes to "increasing the randomness of the game".
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On August 16 2013 22:24 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 22:16 GreenGringo wrote:On August 16 2013 22:03 FLuE wrote:Listening to David Kim on CtL was disappointing. No creativity and a total disconnect between him and the community. I just feel we are getting the game he thinks is fun, and not what actually is. I mean he defended force fields as something in the game that can really display high level pro skill. Really? Spamming and clicking? It's the most forgiving spell in RTS history. Even gold level players can spam decent force fields. If I had a dollar everytime a caster said "those were some bad force fields" I'd have 2 dollars. All you ever hear is great force fields! Sorry it is not fun to watch Toss players spam FF. That is simply not true and only a biased Zerg or Terran could ever hold such an uninformed opinion. There's actually a huge difference between Parting-level force fields and those of a gold player. Arguably force field micro is far more demanding than stop-stutter or splitting against banelings or whatever it is that you consider to be real micro. There's many reasons why Kim is clueless and has no idea how to make a good RTS. His comment on force field micro was not one of them. It is a fact that you NEED Forcefields - a crowd control spell - to actually make Stalkers and Zealots worth it. In WoW they massively nerfed crowd control spells because they knew they are properly powerful, but for SC2 they are ok? Not really. So the whole "crowd control spells in an RTS" makes the whole design of a game seem to be done by a bunch of clueless guys who didnt bother thinking about the negative effects of things they put into the game.
Well, you can't buff zealots and stalkers then nerf forcefields because of warp gates, the 4-wg rushes and such would gain so much more power if you buffed mainly the stalker and then we have blink has well which improve the stalker exponentially. So it is not just to change one thing and all is fine type of problem.
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On August 16 2013 22:27 FLuE wrote:
They are boring, forgiving, and game breaking from a creativity standpoint. I play random and FF micro is very easy micro compared to pretty much anything else in the game that is considered micro intensive. I play random too, so don't act like it gives you some kind of authority, because it doesn't. On the face of it, your statement is absurd. If every Protoss just had to get the right number of sentries and immortals at the right time, then everyone would be like Parting. Force field micro is absolutely the main thing that separates a Parting immortal all-in from one by some scrub. It's not just about planting the force fields in the right place (although that isn't easy). It's about decision-making and finding the best way to use your energy.
On August 16 2013 22:27 FLuE wrote:Only a Protoss player such as yourself would claim how difficult FF are. They aren't and ruin opportunities for Protoss to be better balanced and not so timing and FF dependent when dealing with gateway units. Biased bullshit, which is easily disproven by the concrete example of the vast skill difference in execution of immortal all-ins.
I don't think FF is a fun mechanic, but that's different from saying it has a low skill cap. Even top Koreans don't have perfect force fields and often lose sentries and die because zerglings get in when they shouldn't. I think stop-stuttering with the same T1 units every match has a low skill cap. But then, Terrans seem to operate by different moral standards than Protoss players, maybe due to the "demographic factor" and the lack of filter on any race that is so child-proof in its design, with both emergency and liftable supply depots and gameplay so simple that it entails nothing more than spamming the same tier 1 units the entire game and stop-stuttering them.
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Imo its not the matter if gold leage players can do the same quality of forcefields as korean pros. At a certain level, lets say medium masters, ppl can do good enaugh forcefields to get 90-95% of its potential while progames might get 95-98% out of it. Not a huge difference.
The major problems with forcefields are:
a) in general macrogames can engaging into forcefields be the instant lose with a good positioning of the protoss. With a bad positioning of the protoss, forcefields don't do this. So protosses basically wait at a position where they can forcefield the opponent well and opponents (both T and Z) wait at the location where this is unlikely to happen and try to pull the protoss into it. Both dont engage into the position that is beneficial for their opponent. THIS basically leads to 200/200 vs 200/200 army fights. Because of the big time impact of forcefields on protoss play, general macro games get more passive and fights get delayed more and more.
b) forcefields on ramps is just an unecessary mechanic that leads to boring and undeserved wins/loses. Getting into opponents natural and blocking the choke while killing the expansion is just something that should not exist at all. Warpprism + forcefield drops is one of the most unfair and undeserved instant win mechanics that exist but it requires a decent committment and is not that easy to execute - still its not needed in the game.
c) messed up forcefields can instant lose the game for protoss. This limits the vialble unit combinations and strategies of protosses alot. Also it is quite boring to watch games end because protosses mess up with forcefields or simply don't have enaugh of them and then lose.
d) in a situation where Z/T is behind and protoss is ahead forcefields make it extremely hard to come back against Protoss. This is a general problem of the mechanics of SC2. It is extremely boring to watch games where the one that is being behind has no real chance to come back and turn things around with good/intelligent play. Forcefields also do this.
Forcefields should be removed from the game as soon as possible and be replaced with something more dynamic, less punishing, less unfair and less stupid.
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On August 16 2013 22:55 LSN wrote:
Imo its not the matter if gold leage players can do the same quality of forcefields as korean pros. At a certain level, lets say medium masters, ppl can do good enaugh forcefields to get 90-95% of its potential while progames might get 95-98% out of it. Not a huge difference. That's even more true with widow mines.
You could even say it about the mechanic of stop-stutter, "press T and A-attack" .
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Sure. Most that I said about forcefields is true for widow mines too.
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The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. But i'm more thinking, Zerg need some way to deal with early force field (the idea of giving queen : massive char, is interesting for example); than blizzard should nerf FF because i must admit it's fun to watch and require some skill for the Protoss.
For corruptor change, i propose the +20% dmg are removed from corruption and added to fungal (FG incrase the dommage taken by 20%, therefore it feet better his role of suporting caster). And corruption now interrupt the casting ability : void charge, medivac boost, recall, seeker missile, yamato cannon. Then, corruptor have a way to engage void ray (but voi ray is still a counter, and the ability of interrupting have a cooldown so it should be used wisely), it can prevent medivac from escaping, and in late game vs Skyterran, zerg have a way to stop seeker which follow boosted medivac.
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On August 16 2013 23:28 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. But i'm more thinking, Zerg need some way to deal with early force field (the idea of giving queen : massive char, is interesting for example); than blizzard should nerf FF because i must admit it's fun to watch and require some skill for the Protoss.
For corruptor change, i propose the +20% dmg are removed from corruption and added to fungal (FG incrase the dommage taken by 20%, therefore it feet better his role of suporting caster). And corruption now interrupt the casting ability : void charge, medivac boost, recall, seeker missile, yamato cannon. Then, corruptor have a way to engage void ray (but voi ray is still a counter, and the ability of interrupting have a cooldown so it should be used wisely), it can prevent medivac from escaping, and in late game vs Skyterran, zerg have a way to stop seeker which follow boosted medivac.
Zergs do have a counter for FFs. You bait them out before committing your entire army to attack the protoss army that has 10 FF at its disposal. Giving queens massive just means that you only need to nydus network all-in, and I doubt you ever lose.
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On August 16 2013 23:28 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. That's not true. You can bait force fields, you can flank, and you can use hydras that fire over them.
It's a pretty fun mechanic, but I agree it's a problem that the entire game revolves around it.
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On August 16 2013 23:37 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 23:28 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. But i'm more thinking, Zerg need some way to deal with early force field (the idea of giving queen : massive char, is interesting for example); than blizzard should nerf FF because i must admit it's fun to watch and require some skill for the Protoss.
For corruptor change, i propose the +20% dmg are removed from corruption and added to fungal (FG incrase the dommage taken by 20%, therefore it feet better his role of suporting caster). And corruption now interrupt the casting ability : void charge, medivac boost, recall, seeker missile, yamato cannon. Then, corruptor have a way to engage void ray (but voi ray is still a counter, and the ability of interrupting have a cooldown so it should be used wisely), it can prevent medivac from escaping, and in late game vs Skyterran, zerg have a way to stop seeker which follow boosted medivac. Zergs do have a counter for FFs. You bait them out before committing your entire army to attack the protoss army that has 10 FF at its disposal. Giving queens massive just means that you only need to nydus network all-in, and I doubt you ever lose.
thats not a counter to force field but a counter to bad players. but yeah, force fields are pretty much the only thing that requires any kind of finesse from protosses so if you take it out and adjust the rest you get a full 10 apm a move = grandmaster race.
On August 16 2013 20:21 GreenGringo wrote:
Starcraft 2 is more balanced than it's ever been...and the game is dying.
It's dying because the guy who's been endowed with absolute dominion over the game is an experienced kid who doesn't have a creative bone in his body.
Yes, the game is balanced...but at what cost? There is no variety for Zerg, there is minimal variety for Terran. Protoss has variety, but absolutely no opportunities for harassment and fun, energetic games other than suiciding waves of zealots, like in WoL.
Compare it to DotA2 and it's just not a contest.
maybe because sc2 is NOT more balanced than its ever been, but instead an imbalanced shit fest?
you talking win rates? WOL pvz was 50%, but it was the most imbalanced matchup in all of WOL.
immortal allin and protoss doesnt do big mistakes? protoss wins every time. lategame and zerg doesnt do big mistakes? zerg wins every time.
dota is way more fun to play but i just can't take it serious as an esport because of all the randomness (runes, critical strike, bash, evasion, random damage, 'skill shots' that most of the time are 80% luck, etc.) and because i think team games are just not comparable to the amazement you can have at the individual skill of players in a 1v1.
still, i play way more dota than sc2 now, because sc2 just went to complete shit with hots, not just balance wise. see my other posts for my opinion on this, i'm not rabiator, not gonna post the same thing a million times.
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On August 17 2013 00:27 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 23:28 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. That's not true. You can bait force fields, you can flank, and you can use hydras that fire over them. It's a pretty fun mechanic, but I agree it's a problem that the entire game revolves around it.
You can bait but you will in general lose some units for not that much gain normally. You may just shorten the longevity of the protoss push though. Flank is not always possible but neccesary against forcefields. Hydras shoot over force fields but range is not in time for midgame all-ins in general and you want roaches for that either way.
I do not believe forcefields are extremly op but imo ff function as a fungal growth that locks down your micro potential too much. There is nothing you can do about the spell all comes down to the opponent using it well.
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On August 17 2013 01:23 willstertben wrote:thats not a counter to force field but a counter to bad players. but yeah, force fields are pretty much the only thing that requires any kind of finesse from protosses so if you take it out and adjust the rest you get a full 10 apm a move = grandmaster race. Why are such douchebaggish comments the mainstream when it comes to Protoss, whereas everybody in the community bends over backwards to play up the micro requirement of stop-stuttering with the same bio units every game or flanking with zerglings?
Because it has no basis in truth whatsoever. With the exception of anti-widow mine play, Protoss certainly involves more micro than Zerg. Then there's all the games like Alicia vs Taeja at ASUS ROG 2012 where the Protoss looks like he has the better micro than the Terran, with perfect positioning of his army as he constantly harasses his opponent with storms.
The fact that even back in WoL when Zerg had a micro requirement of almost nothing people didn't use language as offensive as this makes me think that it's more about demographics than gameplay.
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On August 17 2013 01:23 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2013 23:37 convention wrote:On August 16 2013 23:28 Tyrhanius wrote:
The problem with FF is Zerg players have not real counter (someone has sayed you can drop/muta/roach burrow, but this tech are not viable as they come too late, are too expansive, and too long at researching). So all the zerg can do is to pray P miss his FF : it's not very interesting as strategy. But i'm more thinking, Zerg need some way to deal with early force field (the idea of giving queen : massive char, is interesting for example); than blizzard should nerf FF because i must admit it's fun to watch and require some skill for the Protoss.
For corruptor change, i propose the +20% dmg are removed from corruption and added to fungal (FG incrase the dommage taken by 20%, therefore it feet better his role of suporting caster). And corruption now interrupt the casting ability : void charge, medivac boost, recall, seeker missile, yamato cannon. Then, corruptor have a way to engage void ray (but voi ray is still a counter, and the ability of interrupting have a cooldown so it should be used wisely), it can prevent medivac from escaping, and in late game vs Skyterran, zerg have a way to stop seeker which follow boosted medivac. Zergs do have a counter for FFs. You bait them out before committing your entire army to attack the protoss army that has 10 FF at its disposal. Giving queens massive just means that you only need to nydus network all-in, and I doubt you ever lose. thats not a counter to force field but a counter to bad players. but yeah, force fields are pretty much the only thing that requires any kind of finesse from protosses so if you take it out and adjust the rest you get a full 10 apm a move = grandmaster race.
If parting's sentry immortal attack gets surrounded by lings while crossing the map, he has to throw down forcefields or else all his sentries die. Those baited forcefields are not a mistake made by noob players.
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On August 17 2013 01:46 Elldar wrote:I do not believe forcefields are extremly op but imo ff function as a fungal growth that locks down your micro potential too much. There is nothing you can do about the spell all comes down to the opponent using it well. If you put it that way...forcefields are like a super high-level version of WoL fungal growth.
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EPT
