On June 28 2013 01:22 Atheotes wrote: Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades)
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Meet Soulkey.
I dont think both of you are bringing bad arguments, because it all depends upon how well you are at defending. Today + Show Spoiler +
Keen lost to Bomber
in "OSL" because he did fail to defend appropriately against massive Hellbat drops although he was significantly ahead at the beginning of the game. One player - the best Zerg - is not a good statistic proof that there is no problem.
That is true for every race, BUT when was the last time any Zerg used dropping a Terran base with Roaches or Banelings? So players are a bit "stagnant" and "limiting themselves" because they stick to tactics which "used to work".
So the conclusion IMO is that players are too greedy / lazy to build a significant amount of static AA and Terrans / Protoss only seem to be less susceptive because Zerg fail to use drops.
On June 28 2013 01:22 Atheotes wrote: Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades)
I dont think both of you are bringing bad arguments, because it all depends upon how well you are at defending. Today + Show Spoiler +
Keen lost to Bomber
in "OSL" because he did fail to defend appropriately against massive Hellbat drops although he was significantly ahead at the beginning of the game. One player - the best Zerg - is not a good statistic proof that there is no problem.
That is true for every race, BUT when was the last time any Zerg used dropping a Terran base with Roaches or Banelings? So players are a bit "stagnant" and "limiting themselves" because they stick to tactics which "used to work".
So the conclusion IMO is that players are too greedy / lazy to build a significant amount of static AA and Terrans / Protoss only seem to be less susceptive because Zerg fail to use drops.
or maybe it is because pros got really good at defending drops which lead to speedboost and WP speedbuffs while ovis still move at HT speed. for a pro HT speed drops mean they get spotted and killed instantly. even dia+ players arent losing any probes to banedrops in mineral lines etc. since you have so much time to react. hell people are pulling worker vs hellbatdrops that move 2,5x times as fast as speedovis. blizz just needs to buff ovispeed to a useful level and we finally will see dropplay from zerg. after 4 years of sc2 pros would use drops if it was viable.
On June 28 2013 01:22 Atheotes wrote: Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades)
I dont think both of you are bringing bad arguments, because it all depends upon how well you are at defending. Today + Show Spoiler +
Keen lost to Bomber
in "OSL" because he did fail to defend appropriately against massive Hellbat drops although he was significantly ahead at the beginning of the game. One player - the best Zerg - is not a good statistic proof that there is no problem.
That is true for every race, BUT when was the last time any Zerg used dropping a Terran base with Roaches or Banelings? So players are a bit "stagnant" and "limiting themselves" because they stick to tactics which "used to work".
So the conclusion IMO is that players are too greedy / lazy to build a significant amount of static AA and Terrans / Protoss only seem to be less susceptive because Zerg fail to use drops.
or maybe it is because pros got really good at defending drops which lead to speedboost and WP speedbuffs while ovis still move at HT speed. for a pro HT speed drops mean they get spotted and killed instantly. even dia+ players arent losing any probes to banedrops in mineral lines etc. since you have so much time to react. hell people are pulling worker vs hellbatdrops that move 2,5x times as fast as speedovis. blizz just needs to buff ovispeed to a useful level and we finally will see dropplay from zerg. after 4 years of sc2 pros would use drops if it was viable.
Idk about that. Banedrops were strong and pretty damn effective for a good while because OLS are so fucking meety and protoss GtA is complete and absolute shit. Once zergs had more reliable options than bane dropping on the main army, gas conservation dictated that banes wouldnt be used in harassment drops and here we are.
Honestly, I feel like a lot of the bitching about hellbat drops comes down to the fact that terrans aren't used to defending drops in the same way toss and zergs are because they don't face much of a drop threat (like marines, hellbats, hellions, mines, marauders) in the other matchups. The bitching on reddit about hellbats is really funny.
@ sup
I think there was just a misunderstanding about terminology. tldr Protoss has a lot of decisions that need to be made before fights are happening and these decisions have a greater impact on a fight while terran can engage in a lot of tactical trickery to get significant edges. So protoss is a much more management style while terran has a lot more tactical, micro elements.
On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote: don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game.
Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win.
bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous.
Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically.
I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play.
No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for).
This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve.
So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that.
There is League of Legends for that. I don't want THE esports to get slaughtered because of some babbies wanting the game to be balanced around their level. Those who made the effort to improve with constant playing (or with sheer talent) DESERVE to have the game balanced around them: they are the best ones. If it isn't fun to play for you just quit, don't expect to have the whole game balanced around your laziness and stupidity.
Sorry but this is one of the most stupid statements I had to read here.
First of all, yes League does that. And guess what? League already SLAUGHTERS SC2 as an e-sport title. Why? Because they balance at EVERY level (sure its easier to balance for everyone because of the number of champs). Do you even realize that your mindset kills SC2 as an e-sports title? Where do you think your average spectator, subsciber or donator comes from? From High Master and Grandmaster? If you lose your base of Bronzies - Diamonds you also lose so much money in this part of the industry... and you just do that in your post by saying "we dont need you playing, we just need you paying!". A core balance should be achieved at any level. League achieves that by having low skillcap champs and high skillcap champs and getting both adjusted according to their relative strenght. In SC2 you just have a "few" units. You have no real "choice" between high skillcap units and low skillcap units. So if one race core units rely on "a-move" to get 80% effect while the other race achieves just 30% wit "a-move" but can go to 150% with "pro-micro" you have a huge balance issue on both levels of play, which WILL cost you players and ultimately viewers.
Stupid people dismiss what they don't understand as stupid. League slaughters sc2 because it's just very very easy. A game as hard as sc2 cannot be as popular as LoL. Only because I said that balancing the game around the highest level is the priority it doesn't mean that no focus should be put on the balance of other levels (in a NON prioritary way). I'll just let it go you quoting what you understood from what I wrote instead of what I actually wrote (very different things, see opening line).
On June 14 2013 04:09 freetgy wrote: don't see how protoss has the stronger lategame army, a lategame MMMGV + Mines is not even closely cost efficiently beatable without a major fuck up by the T in standard game.
Maybe at pro level and High Master/GM, but in high Diamond it is ridiculous how hard it is to beat a Protoss army of equal size as Terran, compared to how incredibly easy it is to a-move the Protoss army to win.
bingo, as a high-damond / low-master terran player, protoss is the only race that i feel like i can lose to a player considerably worse than i amif the toss is able to turtle and macro effectively, the difference in difficulty when it comes to the 'big battle' is humungous.
Maybe you're just not that good. PvT is very management focused for toss with a lot of moments where they can screw themselves if they let a certain situation occur. Lategame devolves down to these very binary scenarios typically.
I totally agree. Who cares that one race is "easier" to play in the wood league. The game should be balanced around the higher levels of play.
No it shouldnt ... because higher level players can cope with more stuff and faster stuff while wood league players would have no chance to deal with a Hellbat drop or whatever ... unless they specifically prepared for that (and then they get beaten by some other strat they didnt prepare for).
This is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN TO PLAY. It isnt fun if you lose to stuff you are incapable of dealing with. "l2p" doesnt work, because people will not be motivated enough to learn to improve.
So ... design the game for FUN has to be the first rule and balancing it for progamers is secondary to that.
There is League of Legends for that. I don't want THE esports to get slaughtered because of some babbies wanting the game to be balanced around their level. Those who made the effort to improve with constant playing (or with sheer talent) DESERVE to have the game balanced around them: they are the best ones. If it isn't fun to play for you just quit, don't expect to have the whole game balanced around your laziness and stupidity.
Do you realize how stupid this is? BW was fair for low level players who played just for fun AND great to watch and awesome when progamers played it. Once and for all ...
FUN AND BALANCE FOR LOW LEVELS DO NOT EXCLUDE INTERESTING AND CHALLENGING HIGH LEVEL PLAY!!!
I apologize for the caps, but there are some simpletons here who believe these things to be exclusive when we have an older game as proof that it isnt true. The design concept around "faster faster faster" and "more stuff, more stuff, more stuff" is the problem of SC2, because they have designed an "F1 race car" and most of the people will not be able to handle that properly. They should have stuck to the "bicycle" of BW, which was more tedious to play+ Show Spoiler +
Todays kids apparently cant be bothered to play with only 12 units per control group apparently because it is too tough. None of the "but technology has advanced since the 1990's" kids have ever complained about the 200 supply limit, the lack of formations for the units, the inability to attack the ground in the dark area, ... because there have been games for decades which had those features. So there CAN BE some arbitrary restrictions which are NECESSARY to make the game work!
, but fair and easier to handle because of this.
To any of those who dont believe me ask yourself these questions: - Is there a point where the game gets too fast? Can Blizzard endlessly increase (buff) them? (Either through unit speed or unit production) - Is a fight with 10 times as many units really 10 times more exciting OR does a smaller fight offer more exciting because every unit that dies/is kept alive is more important? Lower amounts of units equal a lower total dps and this allows enough time to micro and save units, while bigger armies equal more explosions and a fast fight that does not really allow people the time to save their units most of the time. + Show Spoiler +
The most amazing fights AND micro are happening when there are 2 Zerglings that fight another 2 Zerglings and one player wins with both of his Zerglings alive. Fights with lower numbers of units last almost as long because the total dps is much lower.
- Would it make sense to reduce the density of units on the battlefield for better control? (This would require removing any economic and production speed boosts from the game and adding forced units spreading.) - Have you ever complained about the MULE, Forcefield or Fungal Growth? Arent they only a problem when they exist in larger numbers? + Show Spoiler +
IMO a reduced number of units and density on the battlefield would allow for more extreme (= fun and exciting) spells since they dont kill as much at one time.
- Do you think the deathball is a good thing to have in the game? + Show Spoiler +
Blizzard doesnt really do anything against it and the core design of "unit clumping" really enforces it.
A lower production speed - as it was in BW - does NOT mean players will wait until they have 200 supply and start attacking then. Lower numbers of units also mean that the game is more manageable for lower skill players, because the total kill speed is reduced and things like "Marine spreading vs Banelings" are not that much of an issue anymore.
You are the one not understanding. The priority should be highest level balance. You questioned this saying that the priority should be balance for the mass. I, myself, questioned your position and suddenly it looks like I said that 0 focus should be put on balancing the game on low levels (never said, never implied). Focus should be put but as a secondary objective.
Did you guys know T was on 11 winsteak vs protoss until Rain advanced to the next round? In recent month Terran is beating zergs and protoss by double score(approx 65:35 in TvP 60:40 in TvZ) in Korean scene. and with DK claiming the balance is perfect I'm not even gonna bother hoping for protoss win in this WCS.
I don't know what's up with Blizzard' terran love. Terran obviously has the highest skill cap and hence should be shed a different light from what we normally think, when balancing it on pro levels.
I really wanted the oracle change, then when DK dropped it in favour of WP speed, I was still content, but when the buff got halved I knew TvP imbalance wouldn't be affected. Just which Korean pro used WP effectively after the patch?
On June 29 2013 05:53 highsis wrote: Did you guys know T was on 11 winsteak vs protoss until Rain advanced to the next round? In recent month Terran is beating zergs and protoss by double score(approx 65:35 in TvP 60:40 in TvZ) in Korean scene. and with DK claiming the balance is perfect I'm not even gonna bother hoping for protoss win in this WCS.
I don't know what's up with Blizzard' terran love. Terran obviously has the highest skill cap and hence should be shed a different light from what we normally think, when balancing it on pro levels.
I really wanted the oracle change, then when DK dropped it in favour of WP speed, I was still content, but when the buff got halved I knew TvP imbalance wouldn't be affected. Just which Korean pro used WP effectively after the patch?
it's not protoss that is underperfoming, its terran thats too strong. ZvP and ZvT are both below 40% in pro league, almost reaching 30%. Yesterday there were 5 zergs on top 30 KR ladder. Zerg was on a 15-lose streak against no mirrors up to this week, when we actually won some matches.
Back in the day terrans were talking about sample size, but nearly all tournaments point to 40% or below ZvT/ZvP. The only exception was probably dreamhack (which had a GREAT zerg line up and mediocre terran/protoss line up). There are numerous events (All pro league matches, GSTL, MLG, WCS and many others). fun fact: zerg never had a high WR than 45% over any specific qualifier to any event in HotS
DK does not want to admit but we might see some changes in the next months. Zerg can not SURVIVE the mid-game in zvt without sacrificing 3/3 and hive tech (while terrans can still get 3/3), and thats considering perfect scouting and response from the zerg, and also considering that the hellbat joke didn't happen.
This season OSL 7/8 of the terrans advanced, the only terran that didnt advance was Keen and thats because he lost to bomber in the final match. The Code A qualifiers had nearly 50% representation, but only 6 zergs advanced (10 protoss and 7 terrans)
The hellbat isn't even the issue. It's that bio is and always will be too cost efficient and too versatile. There's literally no reason to go anything but bio and it counters every composition in the game.
Although rather than nerfing bio, I'd rather them buff their counters like the splash units.
On June 29 2013 06:08 Dudasc2 wrote: Some last statistics:
PL Round 4: TvZ 61%, PvZ 59% PL Round 5: TvZ 65%, PvZ 58% PL Round 6 so far: TvZ 60%, PvZ 50% WCS Korea Season 2 so far including U&Ds: TvZ 68%, PvZ 54% GSTL: TvZ 59%, PvZ 60%
edit: there's no reason to say its too early to nerf/change terran, the same pattern (arround 60% WR) is repeating since the launch day
Excuse me while I doubt your statistics. Why, you ask. Well, for one, you do not cite sources for any of them, the current or the past statistics.
Also, you have 2 posts on TL. I smell a PBU.
check yourself then, I have a low number of posts because I keep getting banned for no reason. I just got banned again for stating the above. I don't know what's going on with TL mods.
On June 29 2013 06:08 Dudasc2 wrote: Some last statistics:
PL Round 4: TvZ 61%, PvZ 59% PL Round 5: TvZ 65%, PvZ 58% PL Round 6 so far: TvZ 60%, PvZ 50% WCS Korea Season 2 so far including U&Ds: TvZ 68%, PvZ 54% GSTL: TvZ 59%, PvZ 60%
edit: there's no reason to say its too early to nerf/change terran, the same pattern (arround 60% WR) is repeating since the launch day
Excuse me while I doubt your statistics. Why, you ask. Well, for one, you do not cite sources for any of them, the current or the past statistics.
Also, you have 2 posts on TL. I smell a PBU.
Or, you could beat his word with you're own sources. Instead of blaming him without any proof.
That's not how it works. I could claim you're (note the difference between you're and your) a pedophile. Now, it wouldn't be fair to expect You to provide proof that you are not. Instead, I would need proof for my initial accusation.
The now banned user should provide sources to verify his facts, otherwise there's no reason to take his balance whining seriously.
On June 29 2013 06:08 Dudasc2 wrote: Some last statistics:
PL Round 4: TvZ 61%, PvZ 59% PL Round 5: TvZ 65%, PvZ 58% PL Round 6 so far: TvZ 60%, PvZ 50% WCS Korea Season 2 so far including U&Ds: TvZ 68%, PvZ 54% GSTL: TvZ 59%, PvZ 60%
edit: there's no reason to say its too early to nerf/change terran, the same pattern (arround 60% WR) is repeating since the launch day
Excuse me while I doubt your statistics. Why, you ask. Well, for one, you do not cite sources for any of them, the current or the past statistics.
Also, you have 2 posts on TL. I smell a PBU.
Or, you could beat his word with you're own sources. Instead of blaming him without any proof.
That's not how it works. I could claim you're (note the difference between you're and your) a pedophile. Now, it wouldn't be fair to expect You to provide proof that you are not. Instead, I would need proof for my initial accusation.
The now banned user should provide sources to verify his facts, otherwise there's no reason to take his balance whining seriously.
You're the one accusing, hence you should proove it. You're example about me being pedophile (god knows why it had to be pedophile) is completely wrong.
On June 29 2013 06:08 Dudasc2 wrote: Some last statistics:
PL Round 4: TvZ 61%, PvZ 59% PL Round 5: TvZ 65%, PvZ 58% PL Round 6 so far: TvZ 60%, PvZ 50% WCS Korea Season 2 so far including U&Ds: TvZ 68%, PvZ 54% GSTL: TvZ 59%, PvZ 60%
edit: there's no reason to say its too early to nerf/change terran, the same pattern (arround 60% WR) is repeating since the launch day
Excuse me while I doubt your statistics. Why, you ask. Well, for one, you do not cite sources for any of them, the current or the past statistics.
Also, you have 2 posts on TL. I smell a PBU.
Or, you could beat his word with you're own sources. Instead of blaming him without any proof.
That's not how it works. I could claim you're (note the difference between you're and your) a pedophile. Now, it wouldn't be fair to expect You to provide proof that you are not. Instead, I would need proof for my initial accusation.
The now banned user should provide sources to verify his facts, otherwise there's no reason to take his balance whining seriously.
You're the one accusing, hence you should prove it. Your example about me being a pedophile (god knows why it had to be pedophile) is completely wrong.
How do I make this more clear? He claimed T is OP, I questioned the sources of his stats.
He didn't have any sources to show. End of discussion, really.
There is little reason to patch currently in terms of balance. But blizzard has failed to introduce variety of gameplay at this point. Mech is failure (10% viability, 90% deathball boredom), the swarm host has the complete opposite dynamic from what they wanted it to have (it is not a midgame unit that forces the opponent to come out and play. It's a lategame unit that forces the opponent to go home and wait). At this point, there is 3 things blizzard has achieved. TvZ is better balanced PvZ has improved PvP has improved dramatically - unless it ends fast
The other matchups: ZvZ still lacks critical defenders advantages to allow for more strategic playstyles TvT early game is now as unstable as the other two mirrors in the early game TvP - did anything change apart from a few cheeses and hellbats?
Yeah, I agree with all the tools that blizzard hands out to break turtling opponents. But where are the real changes? Where is the change that let's Protoss take third bases fast and stops the Colossusball reliance? Where are the strategies that break the TvZ lowtier+upgrades circlejerk? Where is the positional Tankplay that people are waiting for?
Well, I guess they are all buried under thousands of voices repeating: "Don't fix what isn't broken."
EPT
