Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 534

I posted this on Battle.net but I feel like the community here actually knows what they're talking about. I want to hear your guys thoughts on this.

Watching MLG and many of the most recent tournaments I feel that medivacs with the boost upgrade are too difficult for Zerg to deal with in a late game situation. Bio continues to be effective vs infestor/ultra/broodlord simply because these units, while they wreck bio in a straight up fight simply can't deal with small packs of units split across the map, nor can they force a fight without having multiple undefended counter attacks.
Even if the Z has a superior army and economy, he has a very difficult time push and kill the T without risking drops at every single expansion. The Z must either mass static or trade ineffectively with defensive lings and mutas vs marines, or push, leaving nothing on defense that can kill medivacs.

Specifically the only anti air that Zerg has in the late game that is good vs a single medivac harassing is Hydras and Mutas. In TvZ late game the Zerg is constantly forced to chase back and forth vs non-committal aggression even when his army is vastly superior he can never force a fight because his muta pack cannot be split up (without losing multiple mutas to small numbers of marines) nor can hydras and or queens effectively catch medivacs.
Spores are a good solution but because zerg static is split, without multiple spines per spore the spore can easily be picked off - a base completely safe from a single medivac needs multiple spines and spores and is still very weak vs marauder heavy drops.



I feel this is either a defensive problem from the Zerg:
The inability to have units that shoot up to punish a failed drop, that can be split apart while also being cost effective vs small numbers of well positioned marines and medivacs or that can force a direct engagement while dealing with multi-prong counter drops.

Or this is a too-difficult-to-deal-with harass style from the T:
Drop play requires little commitment - the ability to lift and retreat exists in nearly every case. Drop play is nearly always cost effective for the T, even if no workers are killed because mutas, lings and static are the only real way that multi-prong drops can be dealt with.


Lets look at the defensive capabilities of the TvX matchup as a method to compare how each race is equipped to deal with drop play:


Protoss
[ul]
Mothership Core (Photon Overchange, Recall, Timewarp (Catches units retreating))
Cannons (Denies both the medivac and the units in it)
Simcity and centralized tech/production, increases the effectiveness of static (Limits the weak spots vs drop play)
Warpins (Instantly creating units where defense is needed)
Templars (HT to feedback, DT to force scans and deal with less than quick opponents)
Blink (To catch medivacs)
Phoenix (Not consistently viable at pro level so irrelevant)
[/ul]


Terran
[ul]
Stimmed Marines (Quick enough to catch medivacs)
Turrets (And the ability to upgrade the range)
Vikings (Readily available A2A built out of already available production)
Sensor Tower (Detects air and ground drops in a huge radius)
SimCity (Prevents runbys or small squads from directly running into the mineral line / sniping the expansion)
Planetary Fortress (Allows T to spread out his expansions without mass static)
Floatable CCs (Allows the lift and redrop of the CC without having to rebuy the expansion - makes sniping expansions extremely difficult)
Bunkers (Salvageable, allows simcity)
[/ul]

Zerg
[ul]
Fastest Melee unit in the game (Sling)
Queens (Transfuse, minimal DPS)
Creep Spread (Ground vision, unit speed)
Overlords (Cheap Air vision)
Strong static (Expensive, requires drones, requires 2 static to deny both the dropship and the units in it)
Decentralized production (Queens, each expansion represents a portion of the production)
Mutas (Fast enough to catch medivacs when not boosted, decent DPS but weak to the marines in the dropship)
Corruptors (Medicore air to air, not great vs medivac / drop play)
[/ul]

My thoughts from watching pro games and looking at the tools at a Zergs disposal to deal with drops is this - take it with a grain of salt:

While Zerg is perfectly equipped to deal with drop play 
through creep, overlords and strong static zerg suffers 
from extremely decentralized and vulnerable production
and having NOT A SINGLE UNIT that can cost effectively
deal with bio + medivac supported harass. Zerg units
are either countered bybio and able to deny or punish
an attempted medivacs drop either through speed
or the ability to DPS down an air unit or able to
counter bio but lacking the mobility to 
respond fast enough to drop play or punish the medivac
drop attempt when the Z responds properly.


What this means is that while lings, static and spines
can stop drops but do so at a substantial cost -
If the dropship is killed by Mutalisks  or Corruptors it
is done so at the cost of position - by sending all your
mutas to deny the drop the T is free to drop in multiple 
other locations undeterred while clearing creep -
even if the drop is shut down you lose creep or are 
forced to respond with units that don't effectively deal
with drops. If ground units clean up the drop they 
either do so cost ineffectively (with ling bane) or do
so with very poor mobility (roach/hydra).

My Conclusion

Zerg lacks a way to quickly respond to mass drop play effectively while also having units that can fight bio head on. Units that are strong vs bio play such as ultralisks, banelings, infestors and roaches to an extent are TERRIBLE at defending multi prong medivac supported aggression EVEN WITH STATIC AND PROPER SPLITTING OF THE ARMY DEFENSIVELY because these units can't punish a failed drop - the medivac simply escapes at the cost of nothing to the T and continues until a mistake is made by the zerg defensively.


Note: This isn't a balance complaint - I feel like the medivac is a unit that makes SC:II fun to play and fun to watch. My issue specifically is with the inability of Zerg to punish a failed drop attempt or the outright lack of zerg T3 that can deal with medivacs.

I created a brainstorm of potential slight changes to the game that COULD address the medivac vs Zerg perceived issue.

Theoretical Medivac Boost Changes
[ul]

[li] A significant energy requirement or cost for boost - depending on the energy cost a increase in duration or decrease in duration and an adjusted cooldown[/li]

[li] Units take longer to load back into a medivac (Don't load instantly) [/li]

[li] Medivacs take more damage from spores or queens in the late game [/li]


[li] Medivacs can't both heal and be in 'drop mode'. Time based delay between switching between the 2. [/li]
[/ul]

Theoretical Zerg Defense Changes
[ul]

[li]Creep is more difficult to remove (Either receeds slower, tumors have much more health or spread faster/greater amount of space per tumor)[/li]

[li] Zerg static late game Spine buff vs bio or Spore buff vs medivacs [/li]

[li] Zerg expansion change - Able to secure expansions easier - mass static isn't comparable to the defensive capabilities of HT and cannons or PFs with bunker/turrets yet the cost is much greater. [/li]

[li] Nydus Buff - Nydus use allows Zerg to quickly travel between expansions to deal with multi pronged aggression. This would include a cost change, health change or the like. [/li]

[li] Sling Buff - Superior numbers of cracklings should be able to easily deal with 8 marines and a medivac or the like while being cost effective for the Z. [/li]
[/ul]