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On June 30 2013 17:55 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 17:22 Ghanburighan wrote:First clever harass build that comes to mind: Soulkey v YodaIt's especially good as Yoda went for hellbats as most people do these days. Otherwise I'd look for Proleague vods. The link is yoda vs soulkey. And soul key went mid game roach/bane all in. Can you point where the maru game is? I still want to see the smart harass.
Oh, woops, I meant Soulkey v Yoda. It wasn't an all-in, he busted through, didn't finish the game but killed a ton of workers, opened the walls for more harassment later.
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On June 30 2013 18:24 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 17:55 saddaromma wrote:On June 30 2013 17:22 Ghanburighan wrote:First clever harass build that comes to mind: Soulkey v YodaIt's especially good as Yoda went for hellbats as most people do these days. Otherwise I'd look for Proleague vods. The link is yoda vs soulkey. And soul key went mid game roach/bane all in. Can you point where the maru game is? I still want to see the smart harass. Oh, woops, I meant Soulkey v Yoda. It wasn't an all-in, he busted through, didn't finish the game but killed a ton of workers, opened the walls for more harassment later.
I didn't see any harass. It was just a game where terran fucked up his early push and lost to counterattack allin.
why its all-in:
1. No lategame transition.
2. No 4th base (until very late)
3. The roach/bane compo is useless if it won't do any damage.
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Don't be picky, if Soulkey can win games with that, so can you. Harass CAN fail, it's a basic feature of it. If you manage it well enough, you end up ahead.
More vods of Soukey harass:
Soulkey v Fantasy
Soulkey v Bbyong
I'm spending my free time looking for vods for you, at least try to learn from them.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
2. No 4th base (until very late)
He hits before the guys on 3 bases, why does he need a fourth base so soon?
EDIT: Sorry I was looking at Fantasy vs Soulkey.
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On June 30 2013 18:38 Ghanburighan wrote:Don't be picky, if Soulkey can win games with that, so can you. Harass CAN fail, it's a basic feature of it. If you manage it well enough, you end up ahead. More vods of Soukey harass: Soulkey v FantasySoulkey v BbyongI'm spending my free time looking for vods for you, at least try to learn from them.
Those games are good example, ty. Now I see.
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I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format?
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Is it just me, or is the widow mine one-shotting probes just too random? Sure the protoss should be able to pull the probes in time, but when he does it 1-2 seconds too slow you often see the protoss player losing 10-15 probes at once and a bit later, the whole game.
I just don't like the "random" feel to it, where a single micro mistake turns the game upside down.
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On July 01 2013 05:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format?
Might just be a fluke... Like, 14zergs qualifying is a good indication for zerg generally being in good shape. Also everywhere else zerg is looking fine.
It's probably just one of those seasons.
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On July 01 2013 05:03 blackbrrd wrote:
Is it just me, or is the widow mine one-shotting probes just too random? Sure the protoss should be able to pull the probes in time, but when he does it 1-2 seconds too slow you often see the protoss player losing 10-15 probes at once and a bit later, the whole game.
I just don't like the "random" feel to it, where a single micro mistake turns the game upside down.
You can choose the target with the mine, what are you talking about? If you dont micro it, it shoots the nearest probe.
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On July 01 2013 05:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format?
Well, most of it was expected, the unexpected results were:
Maru>Effort
Trap>Curious
Fantasy>Life
First>Roro,Leenock
But all of those now, with more background information, seem to make a bit more sense. But yeah, the Bo1 definitely played a role. Maru is playing great, and so is First. But would I bet on them winning a Bo3? No...
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On July 01 2013 06:25 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 05:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format? Well, most of it was expected, the unexpected results were: Maru>Effort Trap>Curious Fantasy>Life First>Roro,Leenock But all of those now, with more background information, seem to make a bit more sense. But yeah, the Bo1 definitely played a role. Maru is playing great, and so is First. But would I bet on them winning a Bo3? No...
So more than half of them are unexpected? 9 didnt make it and you mentioned 5 of them here...
Life is the only one that makes some sense with more background information. Terrans are actually making hellbats vs him so that his ling style is shut down (iirc)
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On July 01 2013 06:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 06:25 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 01 2013 05:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format? Well, most of it was expected, the unexpected results were: Maru>Effort Trap>Curious Fantasy>Life First>Roro,Leenock But all of those now, with more background information, seem to make a bit more sense. But yeah, the Bo1 definitely played a role. Maru is playing great, and so is First. But would I bet on them winning a Bo3? No... So more than half of them are unexpected? 9 didnt make it and you mentioned 5 of them here... Life is the only one that makes some sense with more background information. Terrans are actually making hellbats vs him so that his ling style is shut down (iirc)
Again.. well, what you say rings like there's something to it, but there were 16 ZvNotZ matches played, of which 5 were upsets of a kind in favour of the other races. 2 in favour of T, 3 in favour of P. On the other hand, sOs losing to Soo was an upset as well, and to a lesser extent Savage beating Flying and KangHo beating JangBi. All in all, the margins are by one or two games, so it could easily be a fluke. Especially in a Bo1 format.
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On June 30 2013 01:41 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 01:13 SsDrKosS wrote:On June 30 2013 00:47 playa wrote:
I haven't griped in a while about swarm hosts, as I haven't been losing to them. But, I lost a game that doesn't really add up. I noticed my overall score was much higher, which made me look further... I mined 33k more than my opponent. The amount I mined more than my opponent was in the neighborhood of what he mined, overall.
While it boggles the mind, I'm sure I've had much bigger discrepancies in losses. I feel like the swarm host is a unit that needs serious attention to. It's not that strong on most maps. And on the maps that it is strong on, there are not only balance concerns, but swarm hosts aren't utilized how Blizzard intended for them to be used. If anything is "killing esports," the swarm host is. Even if it were balanced, there is nothing you could come up with that would be more boring and time consuming than swarm host turtle games. Colossi wars >>>>> swarm hosts.
I'd like to at least see an implementation that would help balance p vs swarm hosts on some maps, but also one that might potentially get people away from having no intention of being beyond 3 base, going into the game, until they have essentially mined out their third.
BW had it right with observer sight range. Not only do I feel it is now needed in SC 2, but the range should be even more than it was in BW. As of now, I feel like observers are kind of the weak link. If it's late game and the zerg is playing this turtle style, they essentially have 50 sieged tanks (that you need detection to attack), 20 spores, 2 overseers, and 20 corrupters wherever you attack.
Observer sight range is 11. Spore attack range is 7. Swarm hosts are behind the spores. So, you essentially need to place your observer over a spore just to see the swarm hosts. And since the spore has a detection range of 11, if your observers are even out of the attack range of the spore, corrupters will kill them all.
The observer is the worst unit in the game. It has 40 health and 20 shield. It's a paper plane flying in a real war. It's a stealth bomber without an attack/bombs, and anytime it goes to make an attack possible, it's on everyone's radar and is killed just as quick as it appeared. And, since the swarm host have no real hard counter, you're supposed to make as many colossi as you can. Do you want to be short on vision (take a gamble on not having them all be sniped) or do you want to run the risk of not having enough colossi to attack, even if you have the vision? Precious building time is being wasted on a unit that is far worse than it should be.
If the observer had a range upgrade, it would also help tempests to not be useless. Zerg has a very easy time turtling behind static D because toss can't get the vision to utilize the tempests' range. If the tempest is attacking without maximizing its range, it's the least cost efficient unit in the game and will instantly be swarmed/pulled by a viper and picked off.
I would prefer to use the oracle for detection against swarm hosts, but... with its cost and the amount of anti air already in the game, it's spawning into death at your expense. I don't care how expensive the observer upgrade would be. It could be 1k/1k for all I'm concerned. I just want to see it improved. Because as of now, it's a joke. I feel like I'm trying to use observers in BW that were blinded. No real difference.
Your post sounds a bit QQ and unclear. Are you arguing that observer is bad or Swarm host is op or want to make tempest viable? Observer is permenantly cloaked and have sight range of 11. That is already huge. In brood war, the observer sight range was shorter before the upgrade. And you don't need observatory to build in SC2. I.E they have buffed the observer already. Most important of all, no way the sight range. it will give other race to lose all benefit from high ground. Swarm host. After the enduring locust research, it can send locust too far... I think that is the main problem. It gives aweful long effective range to swarm host. maybe make locust spawn faster to compensate less locust life span? Tempest... bad design (protoss*cough* bw guardian *cough*) but quite a decent answer to make BLinfestors to stop dominating. (but somehow it made BC disappear as a sideeffect). That's it. long range with slow speed. That is what it meant to be. In SC 2, the observer is horrible in general. Gas is too valuable, as is robo production time. 1 observer monitoring the main path or his/her army is nice, but outside of that, if you can make pylons around the map, take a watchtower or just have any other unit serving in an observer role, then that's way better than making additional ones. In BW, how fun/easy was it to break lurker contains without the sight upgrade? Well, essentially you're faced with the same dilemma in SC 2, but now you're forced to break them at their base. It's easy to camp. Anyone can do it. If you can macro at all, you can't be broken. The downside to that way of playing is supposed to be that the opponent can take the map and easily win in the long run (war of attrition), but with as cost effective of a unit combo as Zerg can get, that turtle style doesn't come with that con; If you can turtle at your base and guarantee you can split the map (due to long travel time of locusts), at the same time, while having the most cost effective army, then you should win every time. It's not a high skill style. It's not a fun style to watch. There's just nothing appealing about the swarm host atm. And the turtle style with swarm hosts just highlights how bad the observer is. It's as close to useless as you can get. It's just so horrible. If the tempest could actually attack things behind a Zerg's static D line, then Toss might not be forced to make a million colossi that are hard countered by vipers plus corrupters, leaving you with no alternative/solution. The observer needs a sight upgrade. The observer is such trash that I couldn't care less what the cost of it is. Make it 1500/1500, I'd still find a way to get it, because they're that useless as is. It's hard to kill what you can't see. And if you're making observers against a turtling zerg, you're not seeing jack.
hmm... Ok I will be serious now.
When you compare lurker with swarmhost (I don't even know they are comparable...)
lurker have way lower 'effective' range (because some ppl say swarmhost have no attack range) than swarmhost.
And back in BW, spores were immobile, creepspread was ridiculously hard and useless in most of the time. That's why zerg turtling/slow push wasn't great.
and everyone knows swarm host is very poorly made and very boring esp in some maps.
observer had relatively few issues in the past until hots came out
And I think rather than buffing observer, Blizzard should adjust the life time and/or movement speed of locust. It just survives too long and travel almost half acrross the map.
If blizzard would buff observer, they will make the research to be done in very late game (something like a range +2 upgrade in robobay 200/200 170s, unlocked by fleet beacon. I was also thinking of increasing sight range of tempest but that would be sooo imba...
I guess you can try for yourself in map editor (so increase the sight range of observer to 13). Everyone is being extra careful to do any buff/nerf because it might affect other match ups.
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On July 01 2013 05:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 05:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I am just throwing this out there... but WCS KR RO32:
5 of 14 zergs moved on
3 of those 5 were guaranteed because 3 zergs were in the group. None of the 3 beat the other race
Kangho and Soo are the only ones that beat the other race
In the RO16 all 3 top zergs left are in the same group. We may have only 1 zerg in the RO8. From 14 to 1.
Any reason for this? Was it the BO1 format? Might just be a fluke... Like, 14zergs qualifying is a good indication for zerg generally being in good shape. Also everywhere else zerg is looking fine. It's probably just one of those seasons.
personally I think it's due to terran figuring out a better designed opening and transition timing (terran reacted poorly to ultras during early hots TvZ and don't seem to have this problem anymore).
i can't say much about pvz, it looks like protoss players are improving faster than zerg players recently or just performing better in general.
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On July 01 2013 05:03 blackbrrd wrote:
Is it just me, or is the widow mine one-shotting probes just too random? Sure the protoss should be able to pull the probes in time, but when he does it 1-2 seconds too slow you often see the protoss player losing 10-15 probes at once and a bit later, the whole game.
I just don't like the "random" feel to it, where a single micro mistake turns the game upside down.
Almost like a 'better' reaver...
I can dream damnit.
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On July 01 2013 05:49 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
You can choose the target with the mine, what are you talking about? If you dont micro it, it shoots the nearest probe.
Shouldn't the targeted probe turn red (like a seeker missile target)? If the attacker can choose which target to fire at, I feel the defender should know which one it is and then have a chance of isolating it from the rest.
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All those going apeshit over hellbats and terran being op, june winrates tell a different story, courtesy of some guy on reddit:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png) http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
Now you can still argue against hellbat being a design problem, but it's pretty obvious you can't just bash them with the nerfbat and expect terrans to be a-ok. Something needs to be buffed to compensate, which is what Blizzard was probably going for when they suggested the banshee buff.
Also before you point out that these stats include foreign scrubs etc, in Korea terran winrates are even lower.
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On July 01 2013 19:54 Bagi wrote:All those going apeshit over hellbats and terran being op, june winrates tell a different story, courtesy of some guy on reddit: + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png Now you can still argue against hellbat being a design problem, but it's pretty obvious you can't just bash them with the nerfbat and expect terrans to be a-ok. Something needs to be buffed to compensate, which is what Blizzard was probably going for when they suggested the banshee buff. Also before you point out that these stats include foreign scrubs etc, in Korea terran winrates are even lower.
Sorry but unless we got explenation of what those stats are based off it are simply a couple random colored circles.
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On July 01 2013 19:57 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2013 19:54 Bagi wrote:All those going apeshit over hellbats and terran being op, june winrates tell a different story, courtesy of some guy on reddit: + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png Now you can still argue against hellbat being a design problem, but it's pretty obvious you can't just bash them with the nerfbat and expect terrans to be a-ok. Something needs to be buffed to compensate, which is what Blizzard was probably going for when they suggested the banshee buff. Also before you point out that these stats include foreign scrubs etc, in Korea terran winrates are even lower. Sorry but unless we got explenation of what those stats are based off it are simply a couple random colored circles.
Same as always:
All Premier Tournaments
All Major Tournaments
All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages)
All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL)
All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)
The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games.
ChaosTerran @ http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1hers1/winrates_june_source_liquipedia/
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On July 01 2013 19:54 Bagi wrote:All those going apeshit over hellbats and terran being op, june winrates tell a different story, courtesy of some guy on reddit: + Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png Now you can still argue against hellbat being a design problem, but it's pretty obvious you can't just bash them with the nerfbat and expect terrans to be a-ok. Something needs to be buffed to compensate, which is what Blizzard was probably going for when they suggested the banshee buff. Also before you point out that these stats include foreign scrubs etc, in Korea terran winrates are even lower.
A pretty low number of games. Around 300 per MU. I would have expected more fluctuation due to the numbers.
Nice to see all the MU's are nicely balanced, and that's roughly the feel you get from watching tournaments too. We've had a whole lot of P, T and Z win tournaments recently.
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EPT
