EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 535
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On June 29 2013 22:55 SsDrKosS wrote: wait. Zerg actually have no bonus dmg to anything from anything? (apart from stupid spore and corruptor???) what happened to this race?  give hydra +light air!!!K. Hydra -5 attack, and then +5 vs light air. That will make the zerg better. Really that most of their units don't deal bonus damage doesn't make them bad. And I also don't think zerg is in need for an anti-banshee boost. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
While it boggles the mind, I'm sure I've had much bigger discrepancies in losses. I feel like the swarm host is a unit that needs serious attention to. It's not that strong on most maps. And on the maps that it is strong on, there are not only balance concerns, but swarm hosts aren't utilized how Blizzard intended for them to be used. If anything is "killing esports," the swarm host is. Even if it were balanced, there is nothing you could come up with that would be more boring and time consuming than swarm host turtle games. Colossi wars >>>>> swarm hosts. I'd like to at least see an implementation that would help balance p vs swarm hosts on some maps, but also one that might potentially get people away from having no intention of being beyond 3 base, going into the game, until they have essentially mined out their third. BW had it right with observer sight range. Not only do I feel it is now needed in SC 2, but the range should be even more than it was in BW. As of now, I feel like observers are kind of the weak link. If it's late game and the zerg is playing this turtle style, they essentially have 50 sieged tanks (that you need detection to attack), 20 spores, 2 overseers, and 20 corrupters wherever you attack. Observer sight range is 11. Spore attack range is 7. Swarm hosts are behind the spores. So, you essentially need to place your observer over a spore just to see the swarm hosts. And since the spore has a detection range of 11, if your observers are even out of the attack range of the spore, corrupters will kill them all. The observer is the worst unit in the game. It has 40 health and 20 shield. It's a paper plane flying in a real war. It's a stealth bomber without an attack/bombs, and anytime it goes to make an attack possible, it's on everyone's radar and is killed just as quick as it appeared. And, since the swarm host have no real hard counter, you're supposed to make as many colossi as you can. Do you want to be short on vision (take a gamble on having them all be sniped) or do you want to run the risk of not having enough colossi to attack, even if you have the vision? Precious building time is being wasted on a unit that is far worse than it should be. If the observer had a range upgrade, it would also help tempests to not be useless. Zerg has a very easy time turtling behind static D because toss can't get the vision to utilize the tempests' range. If the tempest is attacking without maximizing its range, it's the least cost efficient unit in the game, and it will instantly be swarmed/pulled by a viper and killed. I would prefer to use the oracle for detection against swarm hosts, but... with its cost and the amount of anti air already in the game, it's spawning into death at your expense. I don't care how expensive the observer upgrade would be. It could be 1k/1k for all I'm concerned. I just want to see it improved. Because as of now, it's a joke. I feel like I'm trying to use observers in BW that were blinded. No real difference. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 30 2013 00:01 Sissors wrote: K. Hydra -5 attack, and then +5 vs light air. That will make the zerg better. Really that most of their units don't deal bonus damage doesn't make them bad. And I also don't think zerg is in need for an anti-banshee boost. Come on why do you even mentions banshee... we don't even need hydra unless they are massed& cloaked (which is insane. might work as cheese?). 1 spore and 1~2 queens will eat up a banshee alive. And the people here were discussing on mass raven. I was arguing for Zerg ground AA in general though. This was also the problem in ZvZ when they went Muta war 24/7. Infested terran don't do dmg enough after the nerf patch. You can use queens but they are soooooo slow off creep so they need decent creep spread before use (which is harder vT if raven + scan pops out).and this leaves hydra the AA loner out of all standard ground unit ever since Starcraft 1 alpha was made. I also want hydra to be buffed because Blizzard did not had any major change to this unit ever since from Starcraft BW. those 2 upgrades. attack mechanism, etc are almost identical to broodwar except they now deals more dmg and require more. It is one of the 'unworked' unit. The major difference is that lurker is no longer with us... So my point is that I want Blizzard to give attention to this boring/barely touched unit! + Show Spoiler + evolve tomotified impaler perhaps? | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 30 2013 00:47 playa wrote: I haven't griped in a while about swarm hosts, as I haven't been losing to them. But, I lost a game that doesn't really add up. I noticed my overall score was much higher, which made me look further... I mined 33k more than my opponent. The amount I mined more than my opponent was in the neighborhood of what he mined, overall. While it boggles the mind, I'm sure I've had much bigger discrepancies in losses. I feel like the swarm host is a unit that needs serious attention to. It's not that strong on most maps. And on the maps that it is strong on, there are not only balance concerns, but swarm hosts aren't utilized how Blizzard intended for them to be used. If anything is "killing esports," the swarm host is. Even if it were balanced, there is nothing you could come up with that would be more boring and time consuming than swarm host turtle games. Colossi wars >>>>> swarm hosts. I'd like to at least see an implementation that would help balance p vs swarm hosts on some maps, but also one that might potentially get people away from having no intention of being beyond 3 base, going into the game, until they have essentially mined out their third. BW had it right with observer sight range. Not only do I feel it is now needed in SC 2, but the range should be even more than it was in BW. As of now, I feel like observers are kind of the weak link. If it's late game and the zerg is playing this turtle style, they essentially have 50 sieged tanks (that you need detection to attack), 20 spores, 2 overseers, and 20 corrupters wherever you attack. Observer sight range is 11. Spore attack range is 7. Swarm hosts are behind the spores. So, you essentially need to place your observer over a spore just to see the swarm hosts. And since the spore has a detection range of 11, if your observers are even out of the attack range of the spore, corrupters will kill them all. The observer is the worst unit in the game. It has 40 health and 20 shield. It's a paper plane flying in a real war. It's a stealth bomber without an attack/bombs, and anytime it goes to make an attack possible, it's on everyone's radar and is killed just as quick as it appeared. And, since the swarm host have no real hard counter, you're supposed to make as many colossi as you can. Do you want to be short on vision (take a gamble on not having them all be sniped) or do you want to run the risk of not having enough colossi to attack, even if you have the vision? Precious building time is being wasted on a unit that is far worse than it should be. If the observer had a range upgrade, it would also help tempests to not be useless. Zerg has a very easy time turtling behind static D because toss can't get the vision to utilize the tempests' range. If the tempest is attacking without maximizing its range, it's the least cost efficient unit in the game and will instantly be swarmed/pulled by a viper and picked off. I would prefer to use the oracle for detection against swarm hosts, but... with its cost and the amount of anti air already in the game, it's spawning into death at your expense. I don't care how expensive the observer upgrade would be. It could be 1k/1k for all I'm concerned. I just want to see it improved. Because as of now, it's a joke. I feel like I'm trying to use observers in BW that were blinded. No real difference. Your post sounds a bit QQ and unclear. Are you arguing that observer is bad or Swarm host is op or want to make tempest viable? Observer is permenantly cloaked and have sight range of 11. That is already huge. In brood war, the observer sight range was shorter before the upgrade. And you don't need observatory to build in SC2. I.E they have buffed the observer already. Most important of all, no way the sight range. it will give other race to lose all benefit from high ground. Swarm host. After the enduring locust research, it can send locust too far... I think that is the main problem. It gives aweful long effective range to swarm host. maybe make locust spawn faster to compensate less locust life span? Tempest... bad design (protoss*cough* bw guardian *cough*) but quite a decent answer to make BLinfestors to stop dominating. (but somehow it made BC disappear as a sideeffect). That's it. long range with slow speed. That is what it meant to be. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On June 30 2013 01:09 gillon wrote: Hydra is fine. Ok. Maybe I shouldnt post my opinion about Hydra here because it is more about unit design than balance... bye bye hydra. Once again, you don't get attention from people. AGAIN! | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On June 30 2013 01:13 SsDrKosS wrote: Your post sounds a bit QQ and unclear. Are you arguing that observer is bad or Swarm host is op or want to make tempest viable? Observer is permenantly cloaked and have sight range of 11. That is already huge. In brood war, the observer sight range was shorter before the upgrade. And you don't need observatory to build in SC2. I.E they have buffed the observer already. Most important of all, no way the sight range. it will give other race to lose all benefit from high ground. Swarm host. After the enduring locust research, it can send locust too far... I think that is the main problem. It gives aweful long effective range to swarm host. maybe make locust spawn faster to compensate less locust life span? Tempest... bad design (protoss*cough* bw guardian *cough*) but quite a decent answer to make BLinfestors to stop dominating. (but somehow it made BC disappear as a sideeffect). That's it. long range with slow speed. That is what it meant to be. In SC 2, the observer is horrible in general. Gas is too valuable, as is robo production time. 1 observer monitoring the main path or his/her army is nice, but outside of that, if you can make pylons around the map, take a watchtower or just have any other unit serving in an observer role, then that's way better than making additional ones. In BW, how fun/easy was it to break lurker contains without the sight upgrade? Well, essentially you're faced with the same dilemma in SC 2, but now you're forced to break them at their base. It's easy to camp. Anyone can do it. If you can macro at all, you can't be broken. The downside to that way of playing is supposed to be that the opponent can take the map and easily win in the long run (war of attrition), but with as cost effective of a unit combo as Zerg can get, that turtle style doesn't come with that con; If you can turtle at your base and guarantee you can split the map (due to long travel time of locusts), at the same time, while having the most cost effective army, then you should win every time. It's not a high skill style. It's not a fun style to watch. There's just nothing appealing about the swarm host atm. And the turtle style with swarm hosts just highlights how bad the observer is. It's as close to useless as you can get. It's just so horrible. If the tempest could actually attack things behind a Zerg's static D line, then Toss might not be forced to make a million colossi that are hard countered by vipers plus corrupters, leaving you with no alternative/solution. The observer needs a sight upgrade. The observer is such trash that I couldn't care less what the cost of it is. Make it 1500/1500, I'd still find a way to get it, because they're that useless as is. It's hard to kill what you can't see. And if you're making observers against a turtling zerg, you're not seeing jack. | ||
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
Hellbats had nothing to do with it. -_-; | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
Consider this: If a rushed hellbat drop didn't have boost with the medivac, would it actually be difficult to deal with with turret and well split defensive bio? I want to say that looking at the rushed medivac would be more effective - boost is vital in allowing drop play to be viable into the mid game, not in a 1 base vs 1 base scenario or situations where both players are going for their natural. | ||
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RandomAccount#282689
42 Posts
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Buchan
Canada184 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On June 29 2013 20:05 TheDwf wrote: Yes. Not good, you lack supply to have a solid buffer. They trigger on Zealots. ): Hence why Zerg keep their 15-20 mutas by lategame to deal with drops. I played a game last night against sLivko following the exact scenario you describe and I could only start dropping efficiently once I had killed most of his mutas in a fight; otherwise they come and slaughter the drop before you have time to deal enough damage. There is no "efficient trade" when 1 Medivac and 8 Marines meet 20 mutas, especially as you have to factor the reactor Starport production time a a precious resource too (since you have to produce Vikings too) when facing broods. I think you also completely underestimate how hard it is to pull off this multi-pronged agression while building the adequate anti-broods/infests army, because even if he loses pretty much everything behind he still has this doom push which you have to defend, otherwise he camps your production and it's instant GG. The threat of Banelings massacring your drops means you have to spend a lot of attention microing them, or you will switch the camera to the sight of a Medivac hovering over green goo. Many Zergs get dismantled this way because they simply keep 1aing their entire army chasing single drops instead of pre-emptively splitting some groups of lings/banes; plus as DemigodcelpH says, if Terran has more than 20 supply flying in drops you can simply bash him most of the time with a massive frontal attack. I know they trigger on zealots, but unlike spider mines of BW you can micro them. I dont know what else you would be using your apm on except for on the widow mines with this composition. So either burrow/unburrow or switch targets until immortals are in range. It may not work, but just throwing it out there. I dont know if immortals are even the primary fear of mech terrans. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
Basically i just don´t like how zerg always has to defend and when terran gets their production going even runbys don´t really do a thing. Sorry for the whining but i do feel that this is a big problem that hurts the game. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 30 2013 16:42 RaFox17 wrote: I really feel that zerg needs some way to harras terran without it being all-in. Terrans say that they need some way to stop zerg eco so they have a chance to win. But at the moment it feels like terran attacks and macros behind it, meanwhile zerg has to someway defend without getting behind in eco. And when the mid-game starts then usually starts the attack from terran that lasts for the rest of the game. It seems that you have to be much better than the terran to win because of their harras potential and the absurdly cost effective units they have. And before anyone points out muta´s as our harras i have to say that they really aren´t no where near the stuff that terran has and you need them defending to stay somehow alive. Basically i just don´t like how zerg always has to defend and when terran gets their production going even runbys don´t really do a thing. Sorry for the whining but i do feel that this is a big problem that hurts the game. Get your hands on some Soulkey vods. Hands down best harass in the game at the moment. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 30 2013 16:56 Ghanburighan wrote: Get your hands on some Soulkey vods. Hands down best harass in the game at the moment. Any links to vods? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
It's especially good as Maru went for hellbats as most people do these days. Otherwise I'd look for Proleague vods. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On June 30 2013 17:22 Ghanburighan wrote: First clever harass build that comes to mind: Soulkey v Maru It's especially good as Maru went for hellbats as most people do these days. Otherwise I'd look for Proleague vods. The link is yoda vs soulkey. And soul key went mid game roach/bane all in. Can you point where the maru game is? I still want to see the smart harass. | ||
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