On June 27 2013 20:16 Lorch wrote: Or they could just buff tanks again (and I'm not saying this due to flash saying it, cause I don't even care that much about the supply) by giving the mmore damage, remember it was lowered because we used to play on steppes of war. If say 5 tanks and pf are enough to defend easily against a decent number of swarm host, all you'd have to do is spread your army well and swarm host wouldn't be free win vs mech anymore. On top of that it would also help mech vs toss. I really hate using nerfing to balance things, just buff other things if one race is too strong.
How many is a decent amount? Because I think in equal numbers tanks already win and cost the same amount as swarmhost and equal supply? We don't need to buff turtly units back up plz. That is the problem with the swarmhost in the first place, not that they beat tanks but that you can't push out against them but you can't not push out.
Are we playing the same game? Tanks are currently 150/125/3, while swarm host are 200/100/3. Now while supplies are currently even, costs are most certainly not (especially since terran has entirely different min/gas ratio spending than zerg). I don't think you understand meching, it is all about turtling and then doing your doom push. Now that doom push comes way way too late because you need way too much tanks to be able to leave your base, now if you'd buff tanks you could actually leave your base way earlier and possibly do a really scary push way before they can switch into any tier 3 tech.
A decent amount is about a control group (12) to me. And I don't think 12 swarm host worth locust should be able to do shit against a decently deffended terran base, however currently if you just wait long enough they will eventually kill some things off, unless mech commits a huge amount of their army to defending the sieged base.
I understand exactly how mech is and I think blizzard don't want that. It is shitty to watch and they are trying to make it a spectator game. If we want that kind of thing lets just bring infestor back up to how it was, nerf medivac and we can have BL infestor every game. Wait till 20-40 minutes and watch the 2 armies hit each other and whoever had more stuff going in wins. Turtling is boring and anything that promotes it should be nerfed. As Zerg there is no way That infestor bl shouldn't have been nerfed, Idk if you ever saw ZvP but it was shitty and frankly I am glad that Swarm Host, Viper makes mech basically obsolete. SH isn't a problem in ZvT it is a solution, however in ZvP it is a problem.
And in mech yes that isn't the same cost, but when adding tanks to bio it basically costs you 2 marines, considering you are never ever going to spend your gas on anything else unless it gets super late game and you throw down 4 tech labs on stargates.
When did I ever talk about tanks being such a drain? I don't wanna make them cheaper, I don't want to make them less supply (hell I'd even add siege mode upgrade in if I'd make the game), I want to buff their damage as it was nerfed way way back when all the maps were super small.
My problem with that is you want to make them more effective against a unit that is a counter to them and takes a larger investment than them.
On June 27 2013 20:16 Lorch wrote: Or they could just buff tanks again (and I'm not saying this due to flash saying it, cause I don't even care that much about the supply) by giving the mmore damage, remember it was lowered because we used to play on steppes of war. If say 5 tanks and pf are enough to defend easily against a decent number of swarm host, all you'd have to do is spread your army well and swarm host wouldn't be free win vs mech anymore. On top of that it would also help mech vs toss. I really hate using nerfing to balance things, just buff other things if one race is too strong.
How many is a decent amount? Because I think in equal numbers tanks already win and cost the same amount as swarmhost and equal supply? We don't need to buff turtly units back up plz. That is the problem with the swarmhost in the first place, not that they beat tanks but that you can't push out against them but you can't not push out.
Are we playing the same game? Tanks are currently 150/125/3, while swarm host are 200/100/3. Now while supplies are currently even, costs are most certainly not (especially since terran has entirely different min/gas ratio spending than zerg). I don't think you understand meching, it is all about turtling and then doing your doom push. Now that doom push comes way way too late because you need way too much tanks to be able to leave your base, now if you'd buff tanks you could actually leave your base way earlier and possibly do a really scary push way before they can switch into any tier 3 tech.
A decent amount is about a control group (12) to me. And I don't think 12 swarm host worth locust should be able to do shit against a decently deffended terran base, however currently if you just wait long enough they will eventually kill some things off, unless mech commits a huge amount of their army to defending the sieged base.
I understand exactly how mech is and I think blizzard don't want that. It is shitty to watch and they are trying to make it a spectator game. If we want that kind of thing lets just bring infestor back up to how it was, nerf medivac and we can have BL infestor every game. Wait till 20-40 minutes and watch the 2 armies hit each other and whoever had more stuff going in wins. Turtling is boring and anything that promotes it should be nerfed. As Zerg there is no way That infestor bl shouldn't have been nerfed, Idk if you ever saw ZvP but it was shitty and frankly I am glad that Swarm Host, Viper makes mech basically obsolete. SH isn't a problem in ZvT it is a solution, however in ZvP it is a problem.
And in mech yes that isn't the same cost, but when adding tanks to bio it basically costs you 2 marines, considering you are never ever going to spend your gas on anything else unless it gets super late game and you throw down 4 tech labs on stargates.
When did I ever talk about tanks being such a drain? I don't wanna make them cheaper, I don't want to make them less supply (hell I'd even add siege mode upgrade in if I'd make the game), I want to buff their damage as it was nerfed way way back when all the maps were super small.
My problem with that is you want to make them more effective against a unit that is a counter to them and takes a larger investment than them.
Swarmhosts are not a counter to tanks, atleast I wouldn't say so atleast.
If you're playing well you'll always have enough splash to kill the locusts before they do anything so tanks counter swarmhosts, it's just tanks are so damn supply expensive and weak that you can never take advantage of that until the zerg already has a huge bank.
Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
On June 27 2013 20:16 Lorch wrote: Or they could just buff tanks again (and I'm not saying this due to flash saying it, cause I don't even care that much about the supply) by giving the mmore damage, remember it was lowered because we used to play on steppes of war. If say 5 tanks and pf are enough to defend easily against a decent number of swarm host, all you'd have to do is spread your army well and swarm host wouldn't be free win vs mech anymore. On top of that it would also help mech vs toss. I really hate using nerfing to balance things, just buff other things if one race is too strong.
How many is a decent amount? Because I think in equal numbers tanks already win and cost the same amount as swarmhost and equal supply? We don't need to buff turtly units back up plz. That is the problem with the swarmhost in the first place, not that they beat tanks but that you can't push out against them but you can't not push out.
Are we playing the same game? Tanks are currently 150/125/3, while swarm host are 200/100/3. Now while supplies are currently even, costs are most certainly not (especially since terran has entirely different min/gas ratio spending than zerg). I don't think you understand meching, it is all about turtling and then doing your doom push. Now that doom push comes way way too late because you need way too much tanks to be able to leave your base, now if you'd buff tanks you could actually leave your base way earlier and possibly do a really scary push way before they can switch into any tier 3 tech.
A decent amount is about a control group (12) to me. And I don't think 12 swarm host worth locust should be able to do shit against a decently deffended terran base, however currently if you just wait long enough they will eventually kill some things off, unless mech commits a huge amount of their army to defending the sieged base.
I understand exactly how mech is and I think blizzard don't want that. It is shitty to watch and they are trying to make it a spectator game. If we want that kind of thing lets just bring infestor back up to how it was, nerf medivac and we can have BL infestor every game. Wait till 20-40 minutes and watch the 2 armies hit each other and whoever had more stuff going in wins. Turtling is boring and anything that promotes it should be nerfed. As Zerg there is no way That infestor bl shouldn't have been nerfed, Idk if you ever saw ZvP but it was shitty and frankly I am glad that Swarm Host, Viper makes mech basically obsolete. SH isn't a problem in ZvT it is a solution, however in ZvP it is a problem.
And in mech yes that isn't the same cost, but when adding tanks to bio it basically costs you 2 marines, considering you are never ever going to spend your gas on anything else unless it gets super late game and you throw down 4 tech labs on stargates.
When did I ever talk about tanks being such a drain? I don't wanna make them cheaper, I don't want to make them less supply (hell I'd even add siege mode upgrade in if I'd make the game), I want to buff their damage as it was nerfed way way back when all the maps were super small.
My problem with that is you want to make them more effective against a unit that is a counter to them and takes a larger investment than them.
Well currently equal number of tanks don't really trade equally with equal amount of swarm hosts. They can fight the locusts without losses. You don't really get anywhere close to the swarm hosts with just equal numbers, heck you can't really push out with equal numbers. But yeah, for SH, I'd personally like these changes: 1. Swarm hosts can walk over locust 2. Swarm host burrow faster(someone in LR suggested this last week I think and I thought it was brilliant, to make them less turtly ala Stephano) 3. Slightly lowered dmg and/or hp to compensate for #2.
Lastly I'd like a nerf of the distance they're able to travel. Not certain which direction Blizzard should nerf it in, I mean which kind of unit should the swarm host be? A nerf could make their locust queen-esque in speed, slow offcreep, similar oncreep? This would make the unit more of a support siege unit and makes you able to fight the SH indirectly by creep denial. 20 sec duration 20 sec cd? Makes the unit stronger in many ways except nerfed in long distance siegeing. Less locust speed increase oncreep? Straight up locust speed decrease?
I play mech TvZ, I started having huge amount of issues with swarm hosts, but then I started making hellbat drops. Having the medivacs around to heal after hellbat drops helps a lot vs sh play makes it a lot easier to hold position. My biggest grieviance in TvZ(and mostly when watching PvZ) is just having the swarm host in a very defensive position and constantly denying bases. So yeah, that is what I dislike the most, I'd like to have the swarm host move more around, rather than the only decision being which direction to send the locust.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
That is just not how terran works. For mech to work, it has to be able to have a certain mixture and then add in 1-2 types of units depending on your opponent. The infrastructure of terran just makes you have to make a choice at like minute 6 and stick to it no matter what your opponent does. So yeah, if mech is supposed to work(and you could make an argument that it simply wasn't suppose to, that would be a valid point of view), it has to have some stable composition from the factory that you can fight anything with, possibly with some starport help.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
Why shouldn't you be able to mech every single game? Mech isn't really a strategy, it's a playstyle, and Blizzard wanted different kinds of playstyles in SC2 whereas BW you only Mech in TvP and mainly bio in TvZ, and even then there was no problem with that.
On June 27 2013 20:16 Lorch wrote: Or they could just buff tanks again (and I'm not saying this due to flash saying it, cause I don't even care that much about the supply) by giving the mmore damage, remember it was lowered because we used to play on steppes of war. If say 5 tanks and pf are enough to defend easily against a decent number of swarm host, all you'd have to do is spread your army well and swarm host wouldn't be free win vs mech anymore. On top of that it would also help mech vs toss. I really hate using nerfing to balance things, just buff other things if one race is too strong.
How many is a decent amount? Because I think in equal numbers tanks already win and cost the same amount as swarmhost and equal supply? We don't need to buff turtly units back up plz. That is the problem with the swarmhost in the first place, not that they beat tanks but that you can't push out against them but you can't not push out.
Are we playing the same game? Tanks are currently 150/125/3, while swarm host are 200/100/3. Now while supplies are currently even, costs are most certainly not (especially since terran has entirely different min/gas ratio spending than zerg). I don't think you understand meching, it is all about turtling and then doing your doom push. Now that doom push comes way way too late because you need way too much tanks to be able to leave your base, now if you'd buff tanks you could actually leave your base way earlier and possibly do a really scary push way before they can switch into any tier 3 tech.
A decent amount is about a control group (12) to me. And I don't think 12 swarm host worth locust should be able to do shit against a decently deffended terran base, however currently if you just wait long enough they will eventually kill some things off, unless mech commits a huge amount of their army to defending the sieged base.
I understand exactly how mech is and I think blizzard don't want that. It is shitty to watch and they are trying to make it a spectator game. If we want that kind of thing lets just bring infestor back up to how it was, nerf medivac and we can have BL infestor every game. Wait till 20-40 minutes and watch the 2 armies hit each other and whoever had more stuff going in wins. Turtling is boring and anything that promotes it should be nerfed. As Zerg there is no way That infestor bl shouldn't have been nerfed, Idk if you ever saw ZvP but it was shitty and frankly I am glad that Swarm Host, Viper makes mech basically obsolete. SH isn't a problem in ZvT it is a solution, however in ZvP it is a problem.
And in mech yes that isn't the same cost, but when adding tanks to bio it basically costs you 2 marines, considering you are never ever going to spend your gas on anything else unless it gets super late game and you throw down 4 tech labs on stargates.
When did I ever talk about tanks being such a drain? I don't wanna make them cheaper, I don't want to make them less supply (hell I'd even add siege mode upgrade in if I'd make the game), I want to buff their damage as it was nerfed way way back when all the maps were super small.
My problem with that is you want to make them more effective against a unit that is a counter to them and takes a larger investment than them.
Well currently equal number of tanks don't really trade equally with equal amount of swarm hosts. They can fight the locusts without losses. You don't really get anywhere close to the swarm hosts with just equal numbers, heck you can't really push out with equal numbers. But yeah, for SH, I'd personally like these changes: 1. Swarm hosts can walk over locust 2. Swarm host burrow faster(someone in LR suggested this last week I think and I thought it was brilliant, to make them less turtly ala Stephano) 3. Slightly lowered dmg and/or hp to compensate for #2.
Lastly I'd like a nerf of the distance they're able to travel. Not certain which direction Blizzard should nerf it in, I mean which kind of unit should the swarm host be? A nerf could make their locust queen-esque in speed, slow offcreep, similar oncreep? This would make the unit more of a support siege unit and makes you able to fight the SH indirectly by creep denial. 20 sec duration 20 sec cd? Makes the unit stronger in many ways except nerfed in long distance siegeing. Less locust speed increase oncreep? Straight up locust speed decrease?
I play mech TvZ, I started having huge amount of issues with swarm hosts, but then I started making hellbat drops. Having the medivacs around to heal after hellbat drops helps a lot vs sh play makes it a lot easier to hold position. My biggest grieviance in TvZ(and mostly when watching PvZ) is just having the swarm host in a very defensive position and constantly denying bases. So yeah, that is what I dislike the most, I'd like to have the swarm host move more around, rather than the only decision being which direction to send the locust.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
That is just not how terran works. For mech to work, it has to be able to have a certain mixture and then add in 1-2 types of units depending on your opponent. The infrastructure of terran just makes you have to make a choice at like minute 6 and stick to it no matter what your opponent does. So yeah, if mech is supposed to work(and you could make an argument that it simply wasn't suppose to, that would be a valid point of view), it has to have some stable composition from the factory that you can fight anything with, possibly with some starport help.
So does Zerg have some stable unit that they can produce with the swarm host that can fight anything? No, because the swarm host pretty much only works against mech.
Lets throw some ideas out there though. What about a medivac and 4 widow mines? Get enough siege tanks to handle the SH's, let them spawn and go away from the SH's and drop some widow mines to target the swarm hosts down. Or maybe just hellbat drops around the map.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
Why shouldn't you be able to mech every single game? Mech isn't really a strategy, it's a playstyle, and Blizzard wanted different kinds of playstyles in SC2 whereas BW you only Mech in TvP and mainly bio in TvZ, and even then there was no problem with that.
Why cant protoss go skytoss every game? Why does every build require gateway units?
You already said that you couldnt really mech in TvZ in BW so why should it be different in SC2?
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
You mean like Bio? I seem to remember that working in every single situation in SC2 no matter what the opponent has.
I'd rather have it so Terran have a choice so every single PvT isn't just blind countering bio builds and every single TvZ isn't muta ling bling.
Is it really wrong to want the game to have more options?
Instead of nerfing the time they exist, why not allow they eggs to actually take damage? Maybe shorten their hatching time just to balance that out? I feel like the biggest draw back to this would be that splash damage from tanks or colo would just roast the SH if they get in range (maybe give the SH some additional armor when burrowed, or just in general); but it would force the zerg to be very active with them: burrow, spawn, unburrow, and move to a new location, instead of just burrowing and throwing wave after wave.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
You mean like Bio? I seem to remember that working in every single situation in SC2 no matter what the opponent has.
I'd rather have it so Terran have a choice so every single PvT isn't just blind countering bio builds and every single TvZ isn't muta ling bling.
Is it really wrong to want the game to have more options?
No it's not. It's just not going to happen, because for that you'd need to balance units and "logical compositions" against each other but the community has been pretty vocal about not wanting blizzard to balance anything more than the absolutely necessary things to achieve racial balance.
Thinking of something away from swarm host I thought the reason tanks were bad against Z now is because they create a stationary army, either in mech or in bio, which is completely vulnerable to the buffed mutas and at hive tech vipers. Buffing tank damage would not help in either case because the damage has nothing to do with why they aren't strong. They already 1 shot lings on equal upgrades, they always 1 shot banelings and roaches aren't cost effective against them at all, they will never be good against protoss for obvious reasons and they are plenty strong enough in TvT
You would be more benefited from faster siege/unsiege times so that they can get into favorable positions more quickly and get out of blinding cloud. That would help in both mech and bio play and if it was in upgrade form requiring an advanced structure it wouldn't affect the early game and push widow mines out of a job. I think terran is the race least in need of a buff though so I doubt it would ever happen. Maybe after hellbat nerfs or something but otherwise I don't see it happening
On June 28 2013 00:37 FCReverie wrote: Thinking of something away from swarm host I thought the reason tanks were bad against Z now is because they create a stationary army, either in mech or in bio, which is completely vulnerable to the buffed mutas and at hive tech vipers. Buffing tank damage would not help in either case because the damage has nothing to do with why they aren't strong. They already 1 shot lings on equal upgrades, they always 1 shot banelings and roaches aren't cost effective against them at all, they will never be good against protoss for obvious reasons and they are plenty strong enough in TvT
You would be more benefited from faster siege/unsiege times so that they can get into favorable positions more quickly and get out of blinding cloud. That would help in both mech and bio play and if it was in upgrade form requiring an advanced structure it wouldn't affect the early game and push widow mines out of a job. I think terran is the race least in need of a buff though so I doubt it would ever happen. Maybe after hellbat nerfs or something but otherwise I don't see it happening
Well, buffed tank damage would help with that, as you would need less tanks to fullfill it's role and then you could build more thors/vikings to deal with the air threat. But I don't think that anyone wants a Thor/Hellbat/Viking deathball march across the map and they have 5tanks as support.
The main problem with mech TvZ is imo first and foremost the blinding cloud. You can beat any form of swarm host or roach/hydra or ultralisk play with tanks, but all of them become just way to efficient in frontal attacks when there are vipers in the mix. I think the way to go - not just because of Mech TvZ, but also because of how useless vipers are against mobile units and how strong they are against base defenses in any form - would be to redesign blinding cloud. Turn it from:
Energy: 100 Radius: 2 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath to melee range.
to Energy: 125 Radius: 3.5 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath by 4.
That way, it would become much harder to dodge and would have a similar effect as off now for units like roach(same), hydra(1more range), marine(same), marauder(1more range), stalker(1more range), sentry(same), Archon(same), Immortal(1more range) - but the bigger range would make it better against those mobile units. On the flipside, the more positional/higher ranged units like Siege Tank, Colossus as well as base defenses (PF, canon, spines, spores, turret, nexus canon) would still be capable of fighting. In case of the siege tank from 9range.
On June 27 2013 22:16 TheRabidDeer wrote: Mech complaining about swarm hosts? Listen, Terrans... if you go mech and he decides to go swarm hosts then turtle up and transition into BC's or banshees or even biomine. Swarm hosts counter mech but they require a large number of swarm hosts to be effective which means they have a chunk of supply tied up into something that can only hit ground.
I'm not complaining about swarmhosts, I'm complaining about tanks.
Anyway the whole "in your base hit the enemies main" problem is more a thing in ZvP than it is in TvZ.
"To balance swarmhosts you just need to lower the distance the locusts can travel."
Guess that was not part of your point then.
You want to be able to mech every single game, you want a single strategy that works always. That isn't how it should be. It somewhat works that way with biomine because it is such an aggressive build and forces the other player to react, but I dont see mech ever being that way because it always gives the opponent time to react if they scout.
You mean like Bio? I seem to remember that working in every single situation in SC2 no matter what the opponent has.
I'd rather have it so Terran have a choice so every single PvT isn't just blind countering bio builds and every single TvZ isn't muta ling bling.
Is it really wrong to want the game to have more options?
It is funny you mention bio, because I specifically mentioned bio like literally the next sentence. Biomine works in most situations because it forces an early response that can't be transitioned out of until later in the game. Biomine works until a point, then you usually need to add another unit to the mix (ravens, ghosts, or something else) as the other person manages to get a tech that forces a response out of the terran (infestors, ultralisks, broodlords). Biomine puts the Terran on the aggressive foot and they have the momentum. Later it switches. It just doesnt get to that late point very often.
On June 28 2013 00:37 FCReverie wrote: Thinking of something away from swarm host I thought the reason tanks were bad against Z now is because they create a stationary army, either in mech or in bio, which is completely vulnerable to the buffed mutas and at hive tech vipers. Buffing tank damage would not help in either case because the damage has nothing to do with why they aren't strong. They already 1 shot lings on equal upgrades, they always 1 shot banelings and roaches aren't cost effective against them at all, they will never be good against protoss for obvious reasons and they are plenty strong enough in TvT
You would be more benefited from faster siege/unsiege times so that they can get into favorable positions more quickly and get out of blinding cloud. That would help in both mech and bio play and if it was in upgrade form requiring an advanced structure it wouldn't affect the early game and push widow mines out of a job. I think terran is the race least in need of a buff though so I doubt it would ever happen. Maybe after hellbat nerfs or something but otherwise I don't see it happening
Well, buffed tank damage would help with that, as you would need less tanks to fullfill it's role and then you could build more thors/vikings to deal with the air threat. But I don't think that anyone wants a Thor/Hellbat/Viking deathball march across the map and they have 5tanks as support.
The main problem with mech TvZ is imo first and foremost the blinding cloud. You can beat any form of swarm host or roach/hydra or ultralisk play with tanks, but all of them become just way to efficient in frontal attacks when there are vipers in the mix. I think the way to go - not just because of Mech TvZ, but also because of how useless vipers are against mobile units and how strong they are against base defenses in any form - would be to redesign blinding cloud. Turn it from:
Energy: 100 Radius: 2 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath to melee range.
to Energy: 125 Radius: 3.5 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath by 4.
That way, it would become much harder to dodge and would have a similar effect as off now for units like roach(same), hydra(1more range), marine(same), marauder(1more range), stalker(1more range), sentry(same), Archon(same), Immortal(1more range) - but the bigger range would make it better against those mobile units. On the flipside, the more positional/higher ranged units like Siege Tank, Colossus as well as base defenses (PF, canon, spines, spores, turret, nexus canon) would still be capable of fighting. In case of the siege tank from 9range.
2 -> 3,5 would admittedly be probably way to large of an area(it's an increase of just over 200%), but I like this idea. I'd admittedly probably still say it should be 100 energy, so it can throw down 2, but yeah... That'd also make abduct and blinding cloud differentiate a bit more.
Edit: Even with this change, I'd like the SH changed, so it is a bit more mobile, and doesn't almost force stephano yawnfest.
Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades) Solution: I don't know. The Widow Mine is really the reason that Zerg needs to do early damage to the Terran economy now. Otherwise Terran can keep up on production with Zerg from less bases because Widow Mines are cheaper than Tanks. I'd say buff tanks again and ban widow mines because I thought it was balanced before, but I don't really know. I think Warp Prisms could gain armor. Side Effects: Terrans need a new unit to replace Widow Mine if you go with my suggestion (which is probably not good). Maybe nerf static defenses a bit? Bunkers could stop refunding and PF could do a little less damage or something I don't know. Doesn't sound right because it's hard to secure bases against Zerglings too. But something needs to be altered to make Terran have to consider base trades as a potential, otherwise it's too easy, in my opinion. I think the side effect of warp prism armor would be that Protoss starts using them every game and that's not such a bad thing because Protoss suffers from lack of options, imo.
On June 28 2013 01:22 Atheotes wrote: Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades) Solution: I don't know. The Widow Mine is really the reason that Zerg needs to do early damage to the Terran economy now. Otherwise Terran can keep up on production with Zerg from less bases because Widow Mines are cheaper than Tanks. I'd say buff tanks again and ban widow mines because I thought it was balanced before, but I don't really know. I think Warp Prisms could gain armor. Side Effects: Terrans need a new unit to replace Widow Mine if you go with my suggestion (which is probably not good). Maybe nerf static defenses a bit? Bunkers could stop refunding and PF could do a little less damage or something I don't know. Doesn't sound right because it's hard to secure bases against Zerglings too. But something needs to be altered to make Terran have to consider base trades as a potential, otherwise it's too easy, in my opinion. I think the side effect of warp prism armor would be that Protoss starts using them every game and that's not such a bad thing because Protoss suffers from lack of options, imo.
Definitely disagree with this. P is the team that can't be counter attacked. Mothership core makes any runbys useless as they can just snipe a base and go back home as well as the overcharge shutting down most early aggression. There really are no options to be aggressive vs P. vs T you can at least punish someone for being greedy with mines or going to do hellbat drop by doing a roach bane or ling bane all in. There is no option like that vs protoss. If their 3rd finishes it will almost never die, same as their 4th. I think runbys are actually easier against Terran now because siege tanks aren't as strong in the metagame.
On June 28 2013 00:37 FCReverie wrote: Thinking of something away from swarm host I thought the reason tanks were bad against Z now is because they create a stationary army, either in mech or in bio, which is completely vulnerable to the buffed mutas and at hive tech vipers. Buffing tank damage would not help in either case because the damage has nothing to do with why they aren't strong. They already 1 shot lings on equal upgrades, they always 1 shot banelings and roaches aren't cost effective against them at all, they will never be good against protoss for obvious reasons and they are plenty strong enough in TvT
You would be more benefited from faster siege/unsiege times so that they can get into favorable positions more quickly and get out of blinding cloud. That would help in both mech and bio play and if it was in upgrade form requiring an advanced structure it wouldn't affect the early game and push widow mines out of a job. I think terran is the race least in need of a buff though so I doubt it would ever happen. Maybe after hellbat nerfs or something but otherwise I don't see it happening
Well, buffed tank damage would help with that, as you would need less tanks to fullfill it's role and then you could build more thors/vikings to deal with the air threat. But I don't think that anyone wants a Thor/Hellbat/Viking deathball march across the map and they have 5tanks as support.
The main problem with mech TvZ is imo first and foremost the blinding cloud. You can beat any form of swarm host or roach/hydra or ultralisk play with tanks, but all of them become just way to efficient in frontal attacks when there are vipers in the mix. I think the way to go - not just because of Mech TvZ, but also because of how useless vipers are against mobile units and how strong they are against base defenses in any form - would be to redesign blinding cloud. Turn it from:
Energy: 100 Radius: 2 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath to melee range.
to Energy: 125 Radius: 3.5 Creates a cloud for 14 seconds that reduces attack range of ground units and structures underneath by 4.
That way, it would become much harder to dodge and would have a similar effect as off now for units like roach(same), hydra(1more range), marine(same), marauder(1more range), stalker(1more range), sentry(same), Archon(same), Immortal(1more range) - but the bigger range would make it better against those mobile units. On the flipside, the more positional/higher ranged units like Siege Tank, Colossus as well as base defenses (PF, canon, spines, spores, turret, nexus canon) would still be capable of fighting. In case of the siege tank from 9range.
2 -> 3,5 would admittedly be probably way to large of an area(it's an increase of just over 200%), but I like this idea. I'd admittedly probably still say it should be 100 energy, so it can throw down 2, but yeah... That'd also make abduct and blinding cloud differentiate a bit more.
Edit: Even with this change, I'd like the SH changed, so it is a bit more mobile, and doesn't almost force stephano yawnfest.
well it may be very big in terms of area, but in terms of dodging it's only a linear increase of 1.5. I guess those numbers would simply have to be tested. And, no matter if it is 3 or 3.5, I think double cloud might be too strong and casting a bad one too forgiving. 2.5 is probably not going to do a whole lot on the other hand.
On June 28 2013 01:22 Atheotes wrote: Complaint Problem: Terran isn't as susceptible to counter attacks by comparison to Zerg or Protoss in WoL, by comparison to Zerg in HotS (because recall made sure Protoss could move out with deathball without worrying about base trades)
EPT
