Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 345

On August 05 2012 12:28 Shiori wrote:

Basically comes down to a Vortex or a really stupid engagement.

On August 06 2012 23:55 wangstra wrote:
I watched the ST Curious vs SKT Rain where 6? infestors took out a whole base. Isn't that over tuned? Trading piddly energy and taking out 3 gateways, bunch of pylons, a nexus? Even a goddamn nuke isn't as effective.

On August 06 2012 23:55 wangstra wrote:
I watched the ST Curious vs SKT Rain where 6? infestors took out a whole base. Isn't that over tuned? Trading piddly energy and taking out 3 gateways, bunch of pylons, a nexus? Even a goddamn nuke isn't as effective.

On August 07 2012 00:23 Sandermatt wrote:


Hmm.. That's 900 gas and 900 minerals. As gas is worth more than minerals this might correspond to about 40-50 marines, that can easily do the same damage (likely much more).

On August 07 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
I just think the problem with Infestors is that Roach/Ling by itself will die to Stalker/Sentry/Immortal, but with 5 Infestors somehow the Roach/Ling/Infestor army wins without any losses. That's fucking retarded, because while Infestors are expensive, nothing else is. I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if they had a weakness, but they don't. When I add Colossi to my army, it increases the effectiveness a tonne, but I can only make 1 per Robo at a time, and they also get hit by air. With Infestors, like 6 of them pop out at a time and then boom no matter how far ahead you were economically or in army, you now have to wait for Colossi/Templar to engage.

I literally just finished a game where a Zerg with 2/3rd of my army cost beat me despite getting his fourth denied, all because I got caught in the middle by unupgraded Roach/Ling/Infestor. That should not happen. I'm all for micro allowing for comeback, but F-clicking, a-moving, and then going to get a drink is not skillful and shouldn't be part of this game. The Infestor is, bluntly, just way too fucking good against everything, and the fact that you can produce them alongside each other just makes it even stupider.

The other problem is that when Zerg gets an advantage, you literally can't come back. You just can't. If I lose a lot of units in the middle, I actually just lose all ability to defend any of my bases and I die. Zerg? They have Inject, so they just have to live for like 30 seconds and they can hold with Fungal, Spines, and being able to outproduce. It's just such a shitty situation when I can utterly outplay a Zerg player and still lose because I lose 1 engagement and he loses every other engagement. I love how even the commentators at events are like 'even though [Zerg player] is behind, he's going to have 1 BL/Infestor push that might win him the game!!!! Hopefully [insert Protoss/Terran player] will be able to defend." Uh, yeah. That's fucking stupid as well. Let me know when I get my third base denied for 5 minutes or some shit and then still get an unstoppable attack later on.

The problem is literally just that Roaches and Lings are WAY too inexpensive for what they do, which means that even with limited income, Zerg is always floating money, so they can slowly go BroodLords no matter how few bases they're on. Compare that to Toss or Terran. I can't go Colossi if I have to keep remaking Stalkers and Sentries. Terran can't make Vikings if their Medivacs keep getting picked off. It's just such a massive joke how much the Zerg race is babied throughout most of the game. Oh, you fucked up? Here's another chance. Oh, you can't hold this timing attack? Here's a buff. Oh, you can't get 80 drones fast enough? Buff. Oh, you don't want to Drone scout? Buff.

Like what the fuck, honestly. I've tried to be patient throughout this thread, but I've just had it with how much of an actual joke Zerg is. It's so retardedly forgiving that it's actually just not fun to play against.

On August 07 2012 01:11 Shiori wrote:
I just think the problem with Infestors is that Roach/Ling by itself will die to Stalker/Sentry/Immortal, but with 5 Infestors somehow the Roach/Ling/Infestor army wins without any losses. That's fucking retarded, because while Infestors are expensive, nothing else is. I mean, it wouldn't be so bad if they had a weakness, but they don't. When I add Colossi to my army, it increases the effectiveness a tonne, but I can only make 1 per Robo at a time, and they also get hit by air. With Infestors, like 6 of them pop out at a time and then boom no matter how far ahead you were economically or in army, you now have to wait for Colossi/Templar to engage.

I literally just finished a game where a Zerg with 2/3rd of my army cost beat me despite getting his fourth denied, all because I got caught in the middle by unupgraded Roach/Ling/Infestor. That should not happen. I'm all for micro allowing for comeback, but F-clicking, a-moving, and then going to get a drink is not skillful and shouldn't be part of this game. The Infestor is, bluntly, just way too fucking good against everything, and the fact that you can produce them alongside each other just makes it even stupider.

The other problem is that when Zerg gets an advantage, you literally can't come back. You just can't. If I lose a lot of units in the middle, I actually just lose all ability to defend any of my bases and I die. Zerg? They have Inject, so they just have to live for like 30 seconds and they can hold with Fungal, Spines, and being able to outproduce. It's just such a shitty situation when I can utterly outplay a Zerg player and still lose because I lose 1 engagement and he loses every other engagement. I love how even the commentators at events are like 'even though [Zerg player] is behind, he's going to have 1 BL/Infestor push that might win him the game!!!! Hopefully [insert Protoss/Terran player] will be able to defend." Uh, yeah. That's fucking stupid as well. Let me know when I get my third base denied for 5 minutes or some shit and then still get an unstoppable attack later on.

The problem is literally just that Roaches and Lings are WAY too inexpensive for what they do, which means that even with limited income, Zerg is always floating money, so they can slowly go BroodLords no matter how few bases they're on. Compare that to Toss or Terran. I can't go Colossi if I have to keep remaking Stalkers and Sentries. Terran can't make Vikings if their Medivacs keep getting picked off. It's just such a massive joke how much the Zerg race is babied throughout most of the game. Oh, you fucked up? Here's another chance. Oh, you can't hold this timing attack? Here's a buff. Oh, you can't get 80 drones fast enough? Buff. Oh, you don't want to Drone scout? Buff.

Like what the fuck, honestly. I've tried to be patient throughout this thread, but I've just had it with how much of an actual joke Zerg is. It's so retardedly forgiving that it's actually just not fun to play against.

On August 07 2012 01:34 Toadvine wrote:


The Zerg player who beat you deserved that win, because of how good his macro was, as demonstrated by the fact that he has enough stuff to win. That's why Zerg players win, they simply have amazing macro compared to their Protoss and Terran counterparts.

Just like Terran is balanced around MVP, MKP and MMA, the Zerg race is balanced around Ret and Idra. Very fortunate for the Zergs, I suppose. (Incidentally, who is Protoss balanced around? MC?)

On August 07 2012 01:34 Toadvine wrote:


The Zerg player who beat you deserved that win, because of how good his macro was, as demonstrated by the fact that he has enough stuff to win. That's why Zerg players win, they simply have amazing macro compared to their Protoss and Terran counterparts.

Just like Terran is balanced around MVP, MKP and MMA, the Zerg race is balanced around Ret and Idra. Very fortunate for the Zergs, I suppose. (Incidentally, who is Protoss balanced around? MC?)

On August 07 2012 01:55 Cloak wrote:
Even if Infestor compositions are beatable, they shouldn't be effective against every strategic option. Fungal should only work on air or only work on ground. Complete movement disablers should always have drawbacks, like Forcefields, that only work on the ground and can get canceled by massives. In return, you can drop the gas cost of Infestors so midgame/lategame Zerg compositions can get more diversified than Infestor/Ling into BL. As much as I love ZvP, I would love for Zerg to have multiple options to tackling lategame Protoss options.

On August 07 2012 01:34 Toadvine wrote:

The Zerg player who beat you deserved that win, because of how good his macro was, as demonstrated by the fact that he has enough stuff to win. That's why Zerg players win, they simply have amazing macro compared to their Protoss and Terran counterparts.

Just like Terran is balanced around MVP, MKP and MMA, the Zerg race is balanced around Ret and Idra. Very fortunate for the Zergs, I suppose. (Incidentally, who is Protoss balanced around? MC?)