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Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything.
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fungal op cuz it roots for 4 seconds, sentry ok cuz toss needs to survive but can gg a game in seconds ("root" and blcok whole chokes). the qq and "suggestions" are so laughable, that for a second i thought i would read the official copper forums...
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On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything.
I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback.
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree.
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On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything.
EMP doesn't root but it removes energy from the units hit.
Storm doesn't root but it does twice as much damage.
If root would be removed then it got to be compensated with something like lower energy cost or higher damage of fungal growth. If the damage would be increased by 50% then marines without combat shield and stimmed marines would die from a single fungal growth. Not sure that's much better than being rooted.
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On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree.
I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled.
End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named.
I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect.
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On August 08 2012 02:17 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. EMP doesn't root but it removes energy from the units hit. Storm doesn't root but it does twice as much damage. If root would be removed then it got to be compensated with something like lower energy cost or higher damage of fungal growth. If the damage would be increased by 50% then marines without combat shield and stimmed marines would die from a single fungal growth. Not sure that's much better than being rooted.
You can have lower energy cost (not higher damage because then it would basically just be Storm) or perhaps a less insane movement impairment. Hell, even a shorter root would be nice. Say Fungal Growth just froze units for a second or two, instead of what it does now. It would mean that chaining Fungals to root wouldn't be economical, but it would also mean that units like Blink Stalkers could be held in place until they are surrounded and so on.
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On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything.
I think root ability is dumb as well. In my "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" series, I suggested 75% movement speed reduction instad of complete root.
Forcefield supports Colossus AOE in a way that keeps units AWAY because colossus outranges opponent's units.
Fungal supports Baneling/Ultralisk AOE in a way that keeps units CLOSER because baneling/ultralisk are melee.
The argment I made is that with current game design, melee AOE of Zerg works cost efficiently ONLY when supported by ranged AOE. It is either cost inefficient when infestor is not around or unbeatable when infestor is around. That big leap is the problem. On top of it, ranged AOE =fungal works fine by itself.
50% slow would mean nothing because stim increases movement speed by 50% to offset it completely.
75% sounds about right for me.
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On August 08 2012 02:19 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree. I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled. End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named. I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect. I don't recall where/when I saw it, but the amount of AoE on the ground just rolls over everything, the point of Carriers/Voidrays is to have ranged DPS from the sky, drawing Corruptor fire away from the Colossus and forcing more of them, and they die to Archons and Psi Storms as well. Archons, Voidrays, and Interceptors are in the front as they have the least range, and are also the easiest units to replace.
You said that expanding doesn't do much for Terran/Protoss. It does, but it's just too hard to hold the expansions because the Zerg can do Roach, Zergling, and Infestor harassment all day long and it's really hard for the Protoss/Terran to do much about it because their units are so slow compared to the Zerg's, especially on this map pool.
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On August 08 2012 02:59 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:19 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree. I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled. End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named. I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect. I don't recall where/when I saw it, but the amount of AoE on the ground just rolls over everything, the point of Carriers/Voidrays is to have ranged DPS from the sky, drawing Corruptor fire away from the Colossus and forcing more of them, and they die to Archons and Psi Storms as well. Archons, Voidrays, and Interceptors are in the front as they have the least range, and are also the easiest units to replace. You said that expanding doesn't do much for Terran/Protoss. It does, but it's just too hard to hold the expansions because the Zerg can do Roach, Zergling, and Infestor harassment all day long and it's really hard for the Protoss/Terran to do much about it because their units are so slow compared to the Zerg's, especially on this map pool.
The Zerg doesn't really need to worry about killing the Colossi because their army is mostly air-based. The only thing Colossi do is clean up Broodlings. I doubt too many Zergs are concerned about that. Void Rays and Interceptors will die and will not trade worth their weight, especially not the Voids.
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I think you made your point clear in your last 20 posts.... if Toss has Blinkstalkers and 6+ Colossi he deserves to win, no matter what.
Every "change" you proposed will lead to Colossi evaporating every single ground unit unhindered while broodlords go down instantly as an offensiv blink is no risk at all.
Surround? Fuck it, I got over ninethousand AE damage and I still have MS + Archon combo if everthing else fails.
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On August 08 2012 03:50 Charon1979 wrote:
I think you made your point clear in your last 20 posts.... if Toss has Blinkstalkers and 6+ Colossi he deserves to win, no matter what.
Every "change" you proposed will lead to Colossi evaporating every single ground unit unhindered while broodlords go down instantly as an offensiv blink is no risk at all.
Surround? Fuck it, I got over ninethousand AE damage and I still have MS + Archon combo if everthing else fails.
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
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I'm just a gold player but imho infestor could be fine if after a fungal they cannot cast another for 6 secs (4 of the first fungal +2 to avoid the second from the same inf) and if Infested terran did not take range upgrades (to avoid IT rain that blows up everything in late game)
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On August 08 2012 02:43 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I think root ability is dumb as well. In my "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" series, I suggested 75% movement speed reduction instad of complete root. Forcefield supports Colossus AOE in a way that keeps units AWAY because colossus outranges opponent's units. Fungal supports Baneling/Ultralisk AOE in a way that keeps units CLOSER because baneling/ultralisk are melee. The argment I made is that with current game design, melee AOE of Zerg works cost efficiently ONLY when supported by ranged AOE. It is either cost inefficient when infestor is not around or unbeatable when infestor is around. That big leap is the problem. On top of it, ranged AOE =fungal works fine by itself. 50% slow would mean nothing because stim increases movement speed by 50% to offset it completely. 75% sounds about right for me.
50% of 3.38 (stimmed marine speed) = 1.69
base marine speed = 2.25
25% of 3.38 = 0.84
Stim wouldn't offset a 50% root.
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On August 08 2012 03:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:50 Charon1979 wrote:
I think you made your point clear in your last 20 posts.... if Toss has Blinkstalkers and 6+ Colossi he deserves to win, no matter what.
Every "change" you proposed will lead to Colossi evaporating every single ground unit unhindered while broodlords go down instantly as an offensiv blink is no risk at all.
Surround? Fuck it, I got over ninethousand AE damage and I still have MS + Archon combo if everthing else fails. I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
I don't mean to cut in, but problem we have today is
"I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die"
vs
"I have 2 archon toilets + everything so I shouldn't die"
And everything comes down to good vortex or good vortex avoidance. It is healthy state of the game for neither side.
Zerg goes...you can just vortex and send archon in while you kill units left outside blah blah
Protoss goes... you can just spread your units well and throw infested terrans blah blah
When everything is said and done, the focus comes down to vortex anyways.
I don't really care which side it actually favors from God's absolute eye for balance if that exists.
ZvP deserves more than that.
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On August 08 2012 03:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:59 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 02:19 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree. I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled. End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named. I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect. I don't recall where/when I saw it, but the amount of AoE on the ground just rolls over everything, the point of Carriers/Voidrays is to have ranged DPS from the sky, drawing Corruptor fire away from the Colossus and forcing more of them, and they die to Archons and Psi Storms as well. Archons, Voidrays, and Interceptors are in the front as they have the least range, and are also the easiest units to replace. You said that expanding doesn't do much for Terran/Protoss. It does, but it's just too hard to hold the expansions because the Zerg can do Roach, Zergling, and Infestor harassment all day long and it's really hard for the Protoss/Terran to do much about it because their units are so slow compared to the Zerg's, especially on this map pool. The Zerg doesn't really need to worry about killing the Colossi because their army is mostly air-based. The only thing Colossi do is clean up Broodlings. I doubt too many Zergs are concerned about that. Void Rays and Interceptors will die and will not trade worth their weight, especially not the Voids.
Voidrays will not die, because they counter corruptors, almost to the numbers 2corru/1vray.
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On August 08 2012 04:13 Pinna wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 03:16 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 02:59 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 02:19 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree. I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled. End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named. I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect. I don't recall where/when I saw it, but the amount of AoE on the ground just rolls over everything, the point of Carriers/Voidrays is to have ranged DPS from the sky, drawing Corruptor fire away from the Colossus and forcing more of them, and they die to Archons and Psi Storms as well. Archons, Voidrays, and Interceptors are in the front as they have the least range, and are also the easiest units to replace. You said that expanding doesn't do much for Terran/Protoss. It does, but it's just too hard to hold the expansions because the Zerg can do Roach, Zergling, and Infestor harassment all day long and it's really hard for the Protoss/Terran to do much about it because their units are so slow compared to the Zerg's, especially on this map pool. The Zerg doesn't really need to worry about killing the Colossi because their army is mostly air-based. The only thing Colossi do is clean up Broodlings. I doubt too many Zergs are concerned about that. Void Rays and Interceptors will die and will not trade worth their weight, especially not the Voids. Voidrays will not die, because they counter corruptors, almost to the numbers 2corru/1vray.
fungal
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On August 08 2012 04:06 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:43 Orek wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I think root ability is dumb as well. In my "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" series, I suggested 75% movement speed reduction instad of complete root. Forcefield supports Colossus AOE in a way that keeps units AWAY because colossus outranges opponent's units. Fungal supports Baneling/Ultralisk AOE in a way that keeps units CLOSER because baneling/ultralisk are melee. The argment I made is that with current game design, melee AOE of Zerg works cost efficiently ONLY when supported by ranged AOE. It is either cost inefficient when infestor is not around or unbeatable when infestor is around. That big leap is the problem. On top of it, ranged AOE =fungal works fine by itself. 50% slow would mean nothing because stim increases movement speed by 50% to offset it completely. 75% sounds about right for me. 50% of 3.38 (stimmed marine speed) = 1.69 base marine speed = 2.25 25% of 3.38 = 0.84 Stim wouldn't offset a 50% root.
So, you noticed that number trick?
I intentionally did it.
Glad some people are actually paying close attention.
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I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
No, I dont prefer that but I'm also not the one who proposes completely unreflected "balance" changes.
You cant "just nerf fungal" without compensating elsewhere, but where?
You cant buff roaches, that would fuck toss completely.
You cant buff hydras, as damage and speed are not the glaring problems and if you buff survivability the just become Roach v2.0
And every other changed unit would just unbalance TvZ even more.
You could start with nerfing marines so you can tone down every AE und switch roach and Hydra tech (with buffs and nerfs accordingt to their new roles and cost), but then again this is not going to happen.
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On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree.
Thors are terrible against broodlords and any decent Zerg will keep his infestors away from tankfire. Besides, sieged tanks hurt the the Terran more than the Zerg when there are broodlords out on the field. You seem to be living in some fantasy world, no offense.
The truth is that it's incredibly difficult for a mech Terran to survive against broodlord/infestor. Not only that, but the Zerg maxes out much, much faster, with a better economy, and as such has a much bigger bank. This means that the Zerg can techswitch and remax a lot better than the Terran can. You made 50 vikings and ravens to deal with his air? Enjoy 200 food ultra/ling coming at you one minute later.
Honestly, the only way to deal with this is to play super turtle-style. PFs and turrets splitting the map and defensive/offensive nukes going off constantly and perhaps you get lucky enough to land some EMPs or missiles in crucial fights, but only if the Zerg lets you.
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I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon
If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you
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EPT
