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Problem: I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use. I agree.
Solution: I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time.
Side Effects: Increasing the viability of Mutalisks in TvZ will probably mean that Protoss will need to be changed to compensate, I believe that buffing Stargate tech and decreasing the cost of the Fleet Beacon may work.
Edit: Buffing Stargate units would let Voidrays and Phoenix be more useful aside from harassment, zoning/scouting of the Zerg's army(and light damage), denial of creep, and lucky pickups of Infestors. Namely, being able to be used in army compositions.
A Fleet Beacon cost decrease would make Anion Pulse Crystals more accessible, as well as air upgrades past level 1, further increasing the viability of air units in PvX past the early game.
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On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time.
the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion
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On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion Despite making them more vulnerable to EMP's, I do not see how this decreases their effectiveness. In fact I think it may increase it in ZvP, as they will get pushed in front of Roaches, Zerglings, and Hydralisks far less due to their smaller model size. It will also make it harder to feedback and focus-fire them.
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On August 07 2012 21:55 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion Despite making them more vulnerable to EMP's, I do not see how this decreases their effectiveness. In fact I think it may increase it in ZvP, as they will get pushed in front of Roaches, Zerglings, and Hydralisks far less due to their smaller model size. It will also make it harder to feedback and focus-fire them.
The man speaks the truth
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On August 07 2012 21:58 RaelSan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:55 Fencar wrote:On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion Despite making them more vulnerable to EMP's, I do not see how this decreases their effectiveness. In fact I think it may increase it in ZvP, as they will get pushed in front of Roaches, Zerglings, and Hydralisks far less due to their smaller model size. It will also make it harder to feedback and focus-fire them. The man speaks the truth I'm not a man though, I'm 15 years old. <3
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On August 07 2012 21:55 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion Despite making them more vulnerable to EMP's, I do not see how this decreases their effectiveness. In fact I think it may increase it in ZvP, as they will get pushed in front of Roaches, Zerglings, and Hydralisks far less due to their smaller model size. It will also make it harder to feedback and focus-fire them.
I don't see how anything you said is a legitimate issue. They already are pretty fat, if making them a bit smaller is going to make it harder for you to kill them then God bless you.
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On August 07 2012 22:01 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:55 Fencar wrote:On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion Despite making them more vulnerable to EMP's, I do not see how this decreases their effectiveness. In fact I think it may increase it in ZvP, as they will get pushed in front of Roaches, Zerglings, and Hydralisks far less due to their smaller model size. It will also make it harder to feedback and focus-fire them. I don't see how anything you said is a legitimate issue. They already are pretty fat, if making them a bit smaller is going to make it harder for you to kill them then God bless you. Hmm, rethinking it you're probably right. I was thinking about lower level play. 
Maybe it could make them slightly more vulnerable to splash damage from Colossi and Siege Tanks when they're clumped? It would depend on how small they are.
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I understand the problem with infestor beeing good against every thing, but the issue is that Infestor is actually the back bone of every Zerg composition because without it, every zerg unit is kinda trashy. Ultralisk can be kite for ever, split makes bannelings always cost ineffective and you just can't break the protoss deathball without it, rememeber that it is the first reason why they buff infestor in the first place. Right now, with the actual metagames, terran and protoss have became so good that all the possible nerf proposed will make the game impossible from a Zerg point of view ( at highest level).
My point, which is more a game design idea instead of balance because I feel the game is pretty much okay right now, since Infestor is strong at defending, Terran and protoss should be able to transition to late game easilly. By some adjustment to some units like Raven or Carrier, by decreases build/research time, change velocity... There is some parameters that you could tweak to make late game unit more interesting from terran and Protoss point on view, without breaking all match up.
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On August 07 2012 23:36 Vanadiel wrote:
I understand the problem with infestor beeing good against every thing, but the issue is that Infestor is actually the back bone of every Zerg composition because without it, every zerg unit is kinda trashy. Ultralisk can be kite for ever, split makes bannelings always cost ineffective and you just can't break the protoss deathball without it, rememeber that it is the first reason why they buff infestor in the first place. Right now, with the actual metagames, terran and protoss have became so good that all the possible nerf proposed will make the game impossible from a Zerg point of view ( at highest level).
My point, which is more a game design idea instead of balance because I feel the game is pretty much okay right now, since Infestor is strong at defending, Terran and protoss should be able to transition to late game easilly. By some adjustment to some units like Raven or Carrier, by decreases build/research time, change velocity... There is some parameters that you could tweak to make late game unit more interesting from terran and Protoss point on view, without breaking all match up. The Infestor's abilities just need slight nerfs to make other tech paths more appealing, as well as to make it just the slightest bit harder to use. You can still fungal Marines and Marauders to let Banelings and Zerglings get up close and demolish them, but it will be less effective and let the Terran split just a little bit more, and thus force Zerg players to do more flanks whenever possible, instead of throwing down a few IT's, 1a-ing, fungalling everything and calling it a day.
I miss the days when Zergs would go Muta/Ling/Bane. It was so interesting to watch. 
As for Terran/Protoss late-game, both of those races never really invest into Air tech due to tech and production requirements: A Starport with Techlab costs 200/125, 25 more gas to get one with a Reactor. A Stargate costs 150/150. Meanwhile, Barracks cost 150 with an extra 50/50 or 50/25 for an add-on, and Gateways cost 150. Air tech also lacks a mineral dump, while every other play style has a valid mineral dump for the tech path that fills a defined role, or a unit that has slightly higher than a 2-1 Mineral/Gas ratio. (slightly higher if the style has gas-heavy units like the Colossus) If you go air tech, you have to end up spending your Minerals on things like Cannons, CC's, Bunkers, etc, letting the other player build air units himself while expanding more than you.
All this means that if you invest in Air early on, you will die to straight-up pushes like the Roach/Baneling timing, X-Gate with Robo, Mass Marine, etc.
If you invest into something else, you have to upgrade that something, which is resources NOT spent on your intended tech path.
All this combined with the high attack speed/low damage of most Air units, (as well as the mediocrity of the Ravens for Terran) means that Air probably needs a buff to make it less weak without a lot of upgrades; something like the old attack from BW for BC's, a single attack per interceptor with double the current damage for Carriers, and generally more damage/less attack speed across the board.
If you think that won't work, look at the Siege Tank. It has one of the lowest attack speeds in the game, and high damage plus splash. It's viable from the early game for defence all the way to the late-game until Broodlords and Ultralisks are out with only +1 attack and no armor upgrades.
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On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion
In my opinion, the best way to nerf infestors is to take away the energy upgrade.
edit. in scenarios where the zerg miscontrols his/her army and the terran or protoss goes into their base, they spam the infestor build key and make a lot of infestors. They just come out, fungal the army, and then everything is reset again. It does not make any sense whatsoever.
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On August 08 2012 00:18 starception wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion In my opinion, the best way to nerf infestors is to take away the energy upgrade. edit. in scenarios where the zerg miscontrols his/her army and the terran or protoss goes into their base, they spam the infestor build key and make a lot of infestors. They just come out, fungal the army, and then everything is reset again. It does not make any sense whatsoever. You can do the same thing with Zergling/Baneling. Infestors take 50 seconds, Baneling morphing takes 20 seconds, Zerglings take 24 seconds. Just surround the Terran's army after morphing a few Banelings to force splitting, and the Cracklings should clean everything up.
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On August 08 2012 00:18 starception wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion In my opinion, the best way to nerf infestors is to take away the energy upgrade. edit. in scenarios where the zerg miscontrols his/her army and the terran or protoss goes into their base, they spam the infestor build key and make a lot of infestors. They just come out, fungal the army, and then everything is reset again. It does not make any sense whatsoever.
I've been thinking that maybe the best way to nerf them, without completely destroying all of the matchups immediately that rely on the infestor, is to nerf their HP (or possibly movement speed). If zerg is punished a little bit harder for miscontrolling the infestors as the other races are for miscontrolling their armies (if you army is partially clumped up out of position with infestors nearby, the game is over). It feels that infestors with the ability to fungal to escape, are not punished for being caught away from the army or out of position as hard as the other races. Which is why I think making them a little bit weaker in their defense without completely disrupting the unit would be good nerf.
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Yeah I missed too Muta ling bane too, but it's just not really working anymore unless you take your opponent by surprise because bioball control has improve sooo much, plus the 3CC build made terran mid game push terrifying. The thing is, unless by assuming your opponent will make a mistake you cannot win without T3 unit, and those unit cannot be cost efficient without infestor support, that's the point where the game is right now. And I don't see a Infestor nerf that wouldn't break *vZ match up, because the way I see it is that any small nerf to the infestor will be as a small nerf to all Zerg unit, resulting a big overall nerf. There is just no alternative to infestor in late game, I wish there were but not yet. You can go muta in ZvP/ZvT (even ZvZ), try to force mistakes and win the game without infestor, but in general you'll always have to transition to infestor eventually.
I'm not talking about early game to air, but as a late game transition, when the map is already kinda split . I thought that Ryung against DRG was a good example of how late game terran should be, however it tooks him a loooot of time to build this army, droping time after time during 10 min everywhere, just to gain enough time to build it. It also worked because it was on Whirlwind, that's my point when I said that I would like to see some buff like reducing the time of construction of Raven, that way you could transition to SkyTerran smoothly and maybe tweak its velocity, its range... to make it stronger.
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I think fungal growth should either have no ensnare effect (or a slight slow effect) or do little to no damage bu retain the ensnare effect. The way fungal works now is just way too strong and unforgiving. If you make one tiny mistake and get chainfungaled to death it's gg. No other race really has this going for them. Personally, I'm against all anti-micro abilities in the game (forcefields, fungal etc.).
Of course, the infestor is still way too mobile and versatile. It's too big to EMP, it can move while burrowed, it can spawn a ton of marines or parasite big units (in mech TvZ it's actually really powerful). I don't think anyone can look at the infestor and say with any sense of sincerity "oh, this is fine, no problems at all!".
I might be fine with it if it were as slow/small as a high templar, but I'd still say a nerf to fungal is the highest priority. If nothing else at least nerf the range on fungal. Maybe then ravens could actually be a viable option and not just a "I hope my opponent has a seizure and doesn't fungal all my ravens" type of unit.
I think any unit that is perfectly well-rounded and useful in every single situation in the game needs to be very critically examined.
Edit: High master EU.
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I agree that the air units need to be more viable, but i think you're going about it in the wrong way.
Why aren't they viable in the first place?
In PvZ I think we all know air is viable for both races.
In TvZ, terran can't really go air. Mutas dominate vikings.
In TvP, protoss air isn't very usable because of the marine. Terran air has proven to be pretty reasonable already, although not en masse. Air is going to prompt stalkers, and stalkers are easily killed by marauders.
The reverse is... Void rays can be used to harass with their large range, but are going to force marines or vikings. Both of those outcomes are probably fine.
For both Terran/Toss, getting heavy air vs zerg is kind of stupid because it prompts corruptors, and provides an easier transition for zerg to broodlords. Ironically for terran, it might be a good idea to switch to BC's after corruptors come out. But this is just theory-crafting at this point.
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On August 07 2012 23:36 Vanadiel wrote:
I understand the problem with infestor beeing good against every thing, but the issue is that Infestor is actually the back bone of every Zerg composition because without it, every zerg unit is kinda trashy. Ultralisk can be kite for ever, split makes bannelings always cost ineffective and you just can't break the protoss deathball without it, rememeber that it is the first reason why they buff infestor in the first place. Right now, with the actual metagames, terran and protoss have became so good that all the possible nerf proposed will make the game impossible from a Zerg point of view ( at highest level).
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nerfing infestors too hard will reduce the amount of options zerg has to counter mm and blink stalkers. I however think they should buff banelings and mutas instead, however this might mess up pvz if mutas get too strong.
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On August 08 2012 00:42 Starshaped wrote:
I think fungal growth should either have no ensnare effect (or a slight slow effect) or do little to no damage bu retain the ensnare effect. The way fungal works now is just way too strong and unforgiving. If you make one tiny mistake and get chainfungaled to death it's gg. No other race really has this going for them. Personally, I'm against all anti-micro abilities in the game (forcefields, fungal etc.).
Of course, the infestor is still way too mobile and versatile. It's too big to EMP, it can move while burrowed, it can spawn a ton of marines or parasite big units (in mech TvZ it's actually really powerful). I don't think anyone can look at the infestor and say with any sense of sincerity "oh, this is fine, no problems at all!".
I might be fine with it if it were as slow/small as a high templar, but I'd still say a nerf to fungal is the highest priority. If nothing else at least nerf the range on fungal. Maybe then ravens could actually be a viable option and not just a "I hope my opponent has a seizure and doesn't fungal all my ravens" type of unit.
I don't mind to change the game a lot, but what you're saying is such a huge nerf that if you don't buff something else to compensate, there won't be any Zerg anymore in tournament, period.
I think any unit that is perfectly well-rounded and useful in every single situation in the game needs to be very critically examined.
Well, Marine?
DuneBug :
The way I see it, is that Sky Terran is an amazing composition, that can fight infestor broodlord if controlled properly but hard as hell to go to.
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On August 08 2012 01:09 DuneBug wrote:
I agree that the air units need to be more viable, but i think you're going about it in the wrong way.
Why aren't they viable in the first place?
In PvZ I think we all know air is viable for both races.
In TvZ, terran can't really go air. Mutas dominate vikings.
In TvP, protoss air isn't very usable because of the marine. Terran air has proven to be pretty reasonable already, although not en masse. Air is going to prompt stalkers, and stalkers are easily killed by marauders.
The reverse is... Void rays can be used to harass with their large range, but are going to force marines or vikings. Both of those outcomes are probably fine.
For both Terran/Toss, getting heavy air vs zerg is kind of stupid because it prompts corruptors, and provides an easier transition for zerg to broodlords. Ironically for terran, it might be a good idea to switch to BC's after corruptors come out. But this is just theory-crafting at this point. In TvZ, you can also build a lot of Missile Turrets at key locations to zone out Mutalisks and provide safe-havens for your air units. Armor also significantly weakens Mutalisk attacks, so 1 default armor would help a ton for Vikings, and it would make them slightly more forgiving to use against Stalkers in TvP as an un-intended side effect. I don't think this is a good thing, but I don't know for sure if this is a bad thing either.
In PvZ Infestors crap all over air. Fungal hits Interceptors, does good damage to Voidrays, roots Phoenix, and then Infested Terran spam screws over all of the Protoss' air units. The Zerg builds Corruptors as the 1a component, since you can only spam spells so quickly.
In TvP, yes. Air forces ground, which forces counter-ground, which forces more ground. (excluding Colossus)
However, Terran air against Protoss air is very close to viable. Stalker/HT against Banshee/Raven into BC's is a close battle, won by good Psi Storms and positioning versus multitasking and spell usage. Against Phoenix/Zealot however, PF's+Turrets aren't enough. The Phoenix simply fly in, get a couple of worker kills, get out before taking any losses. The Terran has to make a ton of turrets, and even then it's not especially effective, only getting a few Phoenix kills whenever they fly in, IF they fly in. In this situation, Phoenix are basically Mutalisks, but with more HP and the ability to fire while moving.
In both TvP and TvZ, Vikings are not effective against Mutalisks and Phoenix respectively. Both counterparts can be produced more quickly due to Chronoboost and Larvae, both are faster, and both are slightly better in a straight-up fight. +1 Armor by default for Vikings would alleviate this slightly, as Mutalisks have a bounce attack and Phoenix deal 5x2 damage per attack and have a fast attack speed.
As for PvZ and PvT, a buff to Interceptor HP, Armor, and ability to repair while docked, and a +1 or +2 armor buff for Carriers could work for PvT as a 'counter' to the Marine.
In PvZ a damage buff against Armored for the Void Ray could work, as at the moment it takes a very long time for Voidrays to kill Roaches, even when fully charged.
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On August 08 2012 01:23 Vanadiel wrote:
Well, Marine? Marines are far less effective in the late-game when there are maxed armies, units with 6 armor, units that do a ton of splash damage for little micro, etc.
They are extremely effective, but not that effective. Infestors are just a little bit too good at all stages, and need to be taken down a slight notch IMO, as well as many others' opinions.
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On August 08 2012 00:18 starception wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:52 Kaitokid wrote:On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use.
I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time. the best nerf to infestors would be to make them smaller in my opinion In my opinion, the best way to nerf infestors is to take away the energy upgrade. edit. in scenarios where the zerg miscontrols his/her army and the terran or protoss goes into their base, they spam the infestor build key and make a lot of infestors. They just come out, fungal the army, and then everything is reset again. It does not make any sense whatsoever.
Solution to your probloem:
If you engage Zerg army on your side of the map and crush them, then expand. There is no way Zerg can pressure you without army. Overcommitting into Zerg base might lose you the army as you described.
If you engage Zerg army on their side of the map and crush them, then procceed and kill Zerg. No unit can be made without build time. Before 2nd wave comes, do as much damage as you can. Infestors take 50sec to build.
Maps today have 50+ seconds rush distance. So, I think your problem is pushing out to Zerg base after you kill Zerg army in front of your base. When you do that, infestors come out just in time when you arrive at Zerg base. Instead, just expand because Zerg cannot possibly stop you without the army he just lost.
As Day[9] said, "I have to go kill mode" after you crush opponent's army is often wrong.
Back to infestor discussion.
Infestor is too good, yet Zerg doesn't have ohter viable alternatives to it. That is the problem. I hope HOTS can fix this problem. Today, fungal growth = only ranged AOE Zerg has. With blinding cloud(?) from viper, baneling's melee AOE becomes better. With new ultralisk charge, ultralisk's melee AOE also becomes better. When other forms of AOE damage improve, I think Zerg can take some infestor nerf.
Today, Zerg is stuck in weird situation where melee AOE(baneling/ultralisk) also requires ranged AOE(fungal growth) support. When melee AOE works better independent of fungal growth, then fungal nerf sounds legitimate.
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EPT
