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On August 08 2012 04:53 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you
Skytoss is weak as hell because it doesn't flow out of natural playstyle and because it still isn't as good as Infestor/BL. And yeah, Archon Toileting is dumb, but the Toss is just waiting for the Zerg to mess up.
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On August 08 2012 03:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:59 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 02:19 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. I disagree with the first two paragraphs. Protoss can make a Voidray/Carrier/Colossus/Archon/Sentry/Mothership/HT army and 1a everything but the Sentries for Guardian Shield, Mothership for Vortex, and HT's for Psi Storm and Feedback. Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well. Otherwise, I agree. I don't know why people say that Voidray/Carrier is the answer to Bl/Infestor. It's honestly just not. Aside from the fact that you'll pretty much never get this composition since you always need to be rewarping Stalkers to defend (i.e. there is no time at which it is safe to have no Stalkers) this army just isn't very strong for what is required to get there. It's extremely top heavy, with a pretty low overall unit count. If the Zerg can trade mildly effectively with the Void Rays and Carriers, he will win, period. It doesn't even matter if he loses a bit much against them. You will never be able to replace those units quickly enough to save the rest of your army. Void Rays are totally out-ranged by Fungal Growth, which makes them rather worthless. Carriers are simply not worth the cost and build time, especially since Interceptors can be Fungaled. End of the day, though, the discussion is pointless. I mean, 200/200 Carriers would probably do pretty well against BL/Infestor/Corruptor/Spine, but it's also totally nonviable for other reasons, much like the composition you named. I'm not sure what Protoss professionals you've seen using this composition to any effect. I don't recall where/when I saw it, but the amount of AoE on the ground just rolls over everything, the point of Carriers/Voidrays is to have ranged DPS from the sky, drawing Corruptor fire away from the Colossus and forcing more of them, and they die to Archons and Psi Storms as well. Archons, Voidrays, and Interceptors are in the front as they have the least range, and are also the easiest units to replace. You said that expanding doesn't do much for Terran/Protoss. It does, but it's just too hard to hold the expansions because the Zerg can do Roach, Zergling, and Infestor harassment all day long and it's really hard for the Protoss/Terran to do much about it because their units are so slow compared to the Zerg's, especially on this map pool. The Zerg doesn't really need to worry about killing the Colossi because their army is mostly air-based. The only thing Colossi do is clean up Broodlings. I doubt too many Zergs are concerned about that. Void Rays and Interceptors will die and will not trade worth their weight, especially not the Voids. The point is that that whole ball can march up massacring broodlings while storming everything and feedbacking Infestors, then vortex the Broodlords and archon toilet them. The Zerg can't rebuild a Broodlord army fast enough to kill the follow-up push, so he dies to warp ins.
The Voidrays and Carriers force a lot of Corruptors, more than their supply worth, thus decreasing the Broodlord count.
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On August 08 2012 04:59 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:53 Protosnake wrote:
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you Skytoss is weak as hell because it doesn't flow out of natural playstyle and because it still isn't as good as Infestor/BL. And yeah, Archon Toileting is dumb, but the Toss is just waiting for the Zerg to mess up. I think there's a skytoss guide somewhere here on TL that has replays winning at high masters, I can't find it for some reason though. Really strange.
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These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races.
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On August 08 2012 05:05 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:59 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 04:53 Protosnake wrote:
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you Skytoss is weak as hell because it doesn't flow out of natural playstyle and because it still isn't as good as Infestor/BL. And yeah, Archon Toileting is dumb, but the Toss is just waiting for the Zerg to mess up. I think there's a skytoss guide somewhere here on TL that has replays winning at high masters, I can't find it for some reason though. Really strange.
I think those are the most recent ones.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352585
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
But you are going to be pretty on your own with such strategies, if you want to explore how to utilize them correctly, as they are hardly ever seen at prolevel (for some reason!?)
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On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is.
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On August 08 2012 04:44 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now? No, I dont prefer that but I'm also not the one who proposes completely unreflected "balance" changes. You cant "just nerf fungal" without compensating elsewhere, but where?
Yeah, just like you could not "just nerf Snipe" without compensating elsewhere, but—oh wait, this is precisely what happened! And I don't see where the problem would be in making Hydralisks something else than a niche unit whose role overlaps with either the Roach or the Infestor, and each time to the detriment of the Hydralisk.
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On August 08 2012 05:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 04:44 Charon1979 wrote:I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now? No, I dont prefer that but I'm also not the one who proposes completely unreflected "balance" changes. You cant "just nerf fungal" without compensating elsewhere, but where? Yeah, just like you could not "just nerf Snipe" without compensating elsewhere, but—oh wait, this is precisely what happened! And I don't see where the problem would be in making Hydralisks something else than a niche unit whose role overlaps with either the Roach or the Infestor, and each time to the detriment of the Hydralisk.
You're intentionnaly missing the point
Snipe isnt as essential for T as fungal is for Z
Also, fungal have weaknesses and counters, snipe had not
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On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is.
Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right).
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On August 08 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:05 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 04:59 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 04:53 Protosnake wrote:
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you Skytoss is weak as hell because it doesn't flow out of natural playstyle and because it still isn't as good as Infestor/BL. And yeah, Archon Toileting is dumb, but the Toss is just waiting for the Zerg to mess up. I think there's a skytoss guide somewhere here on TL that has replays winning at high masters, I can't find it for some reason though. Really strange. I think those are the most recent ones. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352585http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403But you are going to be pretty on your own with such strategies, if you want to explore how to utilize them correctly, as they are hardly ever seen at prolevel (for some reason!?) Awesome, thank you.
Unfortunately it's like Sky Terran I think, very unorthodox playstyle which scares people away from what they know. :<
Also, Infestors.
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On August 08 2012 05:26 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 04:44 Charon1979 wrote:I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now? No, I dont prefer that but I'm also not the one who proposes completely unreflected "balance" changes. You cant "just nerf fungal" without compensating elsewhere, but where? Yeah, just like you could not "just nerf Snipe" without compensating elsewhere, but—oh wait, this is precisely what happened! And I don't see where the problem would be in making Hydralisks something else than a niche unit whose role overlaps with either the Roach or the Infestor, and each time to the detriment of the Hydralisk. You're intentionnaly missing the point Snipe isnt as essential for T as fungal is for Z Also, fungal have weaknesses and counters, snipe had not
transfuse counters snipe. We just aren't there in the meta yet (and probably never will)
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On August 08 2012 05:26 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:23 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 04:44 Charon1979 wrote:I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now? No, I dont prefer that but I'm also not the one who proposes completely unreflected "balance" changes. You cant "just nerf fungal" without compensating elsewhere, but where? Yeah, just like you could not "just nerf Snipe" without compensating elsewhere, but—oh wait, this is precisely what happened! And I don't see where the problem would be in making Hydralisks something else than a niche unit whose role overlaps with either the Roach or the Infestor, and each time to the detriment of the Hydralisk. You're intentionnaly missing the point Snipe isnt as essential for T as fungal is for Z Also, fungal have weaknesses and counters, snipe had not
No, I'm simply mocking your hilarious amount of sheer Zerg bias. Even though neither Terran nor Protoss have realistic answers to Broodlords/Infestors, you still find ways to complain...
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On August 08 2012 02:21 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:17 Batch wrote:On August 08 2012 01:58 Shiori wrote:
Umm, when you hold an attack on your side of the map, in the mid to late game, expanding only really does so much for you if you're a Terran/Protoss player.
The problem is that every Toss/Terran is trying to end the game before Broodlords or before Broodlords can be remade. Can you really blame them? When there's a composition that is essentially impossible to beat no matter how good your economy is, it because incredibly risky to just macro up and allow the Zerg a chance to build up his massive BL/Infestor army with forest of Spines defense. It's common knowledge that Protoss and Terran players are unfavoured in this sort of scenario because they can never really directly engage. The only times we win is when the Zerg takes massive damage from harassment, engages extremely poorly, or manages to lose all of his Infestors. None of these things are things players should be banking on when they make strategic decisions. Always assume your opponent will react correctly; the rest is just desperate or hope-based play.
And the ranged AoE argument is dumb. You can keep the ranged AoE. Just get rid of the root because it is overpowered. Storm doesn't root. EMP doesn't root. Colossi and Archons don't root. Ultralisks don't root. Only Infestors do, and that's the problem everyone has with the spell. If you want to give it some sort of movement impairing effect, sure. Just get rid of the root. Then you can keep your "ranged AoE" without it being absurdly strong against everything. EMP doesn't root but it removes energy from the units hit. Storm doesn't root but it does twice as much damage. If root would be removed then it got to be compensated with something like lower energy cost or higher damage of fungal growth. If the damage would be increased by 50% then marines without combat shield and stimmed marines would die from a single fungal growth. Not sure that's much better than being rooted. You can have lower energy cost (not higher damage because then it would basically just be Storm) or perhaps a less insane movement impairment. Hell, even a shorter root would be nice. Say Fungal Growth just froze units for a second or two, instead of what it does now. It would mean that chaining Fungals to root wouldn't be economical, but it would also mean that units like Blink Stalkers could be held in place until they are surrounded and so on.
I'd Say keep the duration just nerf the damage it does massivly. Zerg still needs infestor dmg for terran drop play, or maybe just make it cause a ton more energy? idk.
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On August 08 2012 05:27 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:20 Big J wrote:On August 08 2012 05:05 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 04:59 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 04:53 Protosnake wrote:
I guess you prefer the "I have 20 BLs and 15 Infestors so I shouldn't die" alternative we have now?
Zerg do die with it anyway, when transitionning to it or even when the deathball is complete and wiped out in a second by mothership archon If you want an equal style of play you can go lategame skytoss : The transition is dangerous, but once you have oyur deathball nothing can beat you Skytoss is weak as hell because it doesn't flow out of natural playstyle and because it still isn't as good as Infestor/BL. And yeah, Archon Toileting is dumb, but the Toss is just waiting for the Zerg to mess up. I think there's a skytoss guide somewhere here on TL that has replays winning at high masters, I can't find it for some reason though. Really strange. I think those are the most recent ones. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352585http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403But you are going to be pretty on your own with such strategies, if you want to explore how to utilize them correctly, as they are hardly ever seen at prolevel (for some reason!?) Awesome, thank you. Unfortunately it's like Sky Terran I think, very unorthodox playstyle which scares people away from what they know. :< Also, Infestors.
I don't think Infestors are that much of a problem, I mean on paper Infestors will always work against ~strategy, but it comes down to really exploring the correct execution in each situation and even if you would find a small group of master+ players to do so, you won't be able to explore it to the point that you need to really tune it down to how exactly to react strategy and micro/control-wise.
It's the same problem with many strategies that we hardly ever see on prolevel. If you have ever experimented with roach/hydra against Terran or 6pool-->2base hydra vs Protoss and stuff like that... the game changes so drastically that you are playing completly without "experimental" benchmarks against players that have all the "standard" benchmarks down...
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I think if blizzard doesn't want to nerf fungals, they should at least bring back khaydarin amulet and ghost snipe back to 65. As of now, a Terran needs perfect composition and macro and micro to beat zerg late game and protoss needs luck vortex. If amulet and snipe damage were back jus snipe broods and infestor / warp in some high temps. Also with amulet, it will force the other races to be more aware and scout better to prevent proxy pylons from going up.
Anyway, either zerg needs a serious nerf, or the other races need a huge buff. I've tried combat shield timings and they scout because of jet pack overlords so they simply make banelings and A move. Ezpz. I don't have pro gamer control since I'm only highish master in na and eu. Triple orbital doesn't work. I sincerely think marines need a +1 marine range upgrade like in bw. The only way I ever win in a tvz or PvZ is if the zerg made mistakes. My t and p vz both went down from around 80 % win rate to like 40 since the overlord and queen buff.
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On August 08 2012 04:03 BuffaloSoldier wrote:
I'm just a gold player but imho infestor could be fine if after a fungal they cannot cast another for 6 secs (4 of the first fungal +2 to avoid the second from the same inf) and if Infested terran did not take range upgrades (to avoid IT rain that blows up everything in late game)
Mmm, i'd rather have an energy reqiredment increase compared to this because once you get to the late game brood infestor spine comp, 6 seconds with that many infestors chaining isn't going to change much.
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People were talking about fixing infestors a couple pages ago. I think the best way to fix infestors is simply to buff the ghost. Make EMP drain more energy than it does. This addresses two issues.
1) Ghosts have been turned into something that's only effective vs. infestors in TvZ, and basically garbage vs everything else. That being the case, if you make them there should be absolutely no doubt regarding their effectiveness against infestors. As it is, ghosts getting off decent EMPs will simply not drain enough energy to prevent your army from getting fungaled. So it's not that the infestor is too strong (although I personally think it is), it's more about the ghost being too weak.
2) EMP was too good vs. Protoss before, but the radius nerf could have been compensated by a buff to energy removal. Storm and feedback are ridiculously good in PvT, and perfect army splitting and control shouldn't be the only way to trade effectively.
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On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I just meant the Thor's anti-light bonus, since Marines with a few Thors for backup shred Mutalisks no contest.
As for viability, every Zerg has either gone Infestors or has been shredded.
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On August 08 2012 05:41 starception wrote:
I think if blizzard doesn't want to nerf fungals, they should at least bring back khaydarin amulet and ghost snipe back to 65.
Which would mean roughly 5% winrate in TvP once Protoss would secure Templar tech, and I'm not even sure I'm exaggerating.
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EPT
