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On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right).
I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW.
For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg
I suggest
Infestor:
75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100%
Larva:
19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery.
Queen:
One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous.
BL:
Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed.
Those are my ideas.
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On August 08 2012 05:42 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I just meant the Thor's anti-light bonus, since Marines with a few Thors for backup shred Mutalisks no contest. As for viability, every Zerg has either gone Infestors or has been shredded.
Why wouldn't they head for Infestors since it's both easier and stronger? But Mutalisk play is definitely still viable.
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On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
Problem: I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use. I agree.
Solution: I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time.
Side Effects: Increasing the viability of Mutalisks in TvZ will probably mean that Protoss will need to be changed to compensate, I believe that buffing Stargate tech and decreasing the cost of the Fleet Beacon may work.
Edit: Buffing Stargate units would let Voidrays and Phoenix be more useful aside from harassment, zoning/scouting of the Zerg's army(and light damage), denial of creep, and lucky pickups of Infestors. Namely, being able to be used in army compositions.
A Fleet Beacon cost decrease would make Anion Pulse Crystals more accessible, as well as air upgrades past level 1, further increasing the viability of air units in PvX past the early game.
Wait, remind me why zerg needs a buff for every tech path before dealing with the issue that the infester is very rarely not used in the ZvP match up? I Don't think its imposible to deal with it without messing with PvT.
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On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas.
Good ideas, pretty much matches my views. I was watching Grubby's stream 2 or 3 days ago and he was suggesting Broodlords 5 supply too.
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Uh, why are we buffing broodlords? Or haven't you been watching all those games where T and P can't make enough vikings or carriers to beat the corruptors?
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On August 08 2012 06:17 Jerubaal wrote:
Uh, why are we buffing broodlords? Or haven't you been watching all those games where T and P can't make enough vikings or carriers to beat the corruptors?
Who...suggested buffing broodlords in last a couple of pages?
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The problem isn't so much that Infestors are too good. Defilers were extremely good in BW too, there was no reason not to get them against Terran or Protoss. The problem is that Fungal is stupid and makes for crappy gameplay, as do most movement impairing effects. Concussive Shells and Forcefield are stupid too, but they don't screw the game up nearly as much. Concussive is a peripheral ability, you see Terrans forget it and win anyway all the time. Forcefield still has a bunch of abusive applications (FFing bunkers and ramps offensively), but it's primarily an early and midgame ability, used defensively in most games, and it actually takes skill to use well. Furthermore, the Sentry, as a unit, has a bunch of pronounced weaknesses, and is actually a support unit, as a spellcaster should be - you don't see anyone intentionally mass Sentries, because it's crap.
Infestors, on the other hand, show up in every game that isn't over before midgame, in every matchup, and frequently allow Zerg players to win games they have no business winning, because they manage to land a lucky Fungal on a clump of Vikings.
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On August 08 2012 05:49 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 05:26 TheDwf wrote:On August 08 2012 05:22 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 05:13 Orek wrote:
These recent posts are exacly why I presented the idea of "NERF YOUR OWN RACE" a few weeks back.
I am just sick and tired of players trying to present new ideas to nerf opponent's race.
In NERF YOUR OWN RACE, you are not allowed to say "well, my race is weak enough, nothing to nerf." If you think that way, then post nothing. Anyone join? After all, you know your own race better than the other 2 races. I would say to nerf the Thor's AA attack to make Mutalisks more viable, but after looking over the math it would almost mean taking out the bonus vs Light all together, and Mech struggles against Mutalisks as it is. Mutalisks are perfectly viable in ZvT, and Thor's anti-air attack is already terrible enough against correctly spread Mutalisks (not to mention it messes up with the Thor AI all the time—hello Thors shooting Overlords left and right). I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. For my NERF YOUR OWN RACE, since I play Zerg I suggest Infestor: 75% movement speed reduction for fungal instead of current 100% Larva: 19 max larvae for Hive, 15 for lair, 11 for hatchery instead of current 19 for all states. It would limit remaxability of Zerg. It also makes sense storywise if Hive can hold more larvae than just Hatchery. Queen: One step back to 4 range if not back all the way to 3 range. Queen having longer range than reaper =4.5 range sounds ridiculous. BL: Make it 5 supply if not 6 instead of current 4 supply. It is not about first 2-3 BLs that cause the problem. When BL number is small enough, suicide mission squad can kill those 2-3 BLs. It is always about massive number of unbeatable BL flock supported by infestors. Bigger supply would effectively limit maximum number of BL unless supply in other fields are sacrificed. Those are my ideas.
These are all excellent ideas. I especially like the Brood Lord one. If that were done, we could look at changing Archon Toilet. I'm not sure the BL buff would be enough to make Archon Toilet no longer needed, but we could definitely decrease the Vortex radius or something and see how it works out.
The Larva idea is really cool. It would make the effect of harassing or denying expansions much more pronounced, which is a good thing. If you take out a Lair expansion, then he's going to have reduced Larvae stacking, which is interesting. Right now one of the biggest problems is that taking out expansions doesn't really do anything super lategame since Zerg will have a huge bank and a million Larvae, so harassment is sort of shitty in that it leaves you in a position where you still need to somehow beat the massive remaxable army Zerg has. If you were able to starve them out of Larvae, that could be very, very interesting.
Queen change to 4 would be great.
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I came up with a 'Nerf my own race'!
Bunker:
Build time increased by 5 seconds.
+ Show Spoiler +I seriously don't know what I could nerf without making everything imba. 
+ Show Spoiler [Edit] +I think Thor is relatively fine. It is more about missile turret. Something sounds wrong when 10 mutalisks cannot kill a single missile turret when repaired. When auto repaired, surrounding SCVs hardly die either. Missile Turret is like 5 times better vs mutalisks than it used to be in BW. Maybe decrease the footprint of the Missile Turret? That's all I can think of, to make it 1 or 2 squares.
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On August 08 2012 05:59 Bertolt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 21:51 Fencar wrote:
Problem: I see people are saying Infestors are a too all-around unit and too easy to use. I agree.
Solution: I have an idea, nerf the Infestor slightly, such as adding slow and nerfing Infested Terran/Egg HP, buff every other tech path slightly in some way:
Decrease burrow cost/build time/buff burrow in some way.
Buff Banelings to be more interesting, perhaps a new mechanic like a baneling launcher? I dunno.
Buff the Mutalisk in some way as to not affect ZvP too much, but make them much better in TvZ.
Buff Nydus in some way: HP/Armor/Alarm/Build time.
Side Effects: Increasing the viability of Mutalisks in TvZ will probably mean that Protoss will need to be changed to compensate, I believe that buffing Stargate tech and decreasing the cost of the Fleet Beacon may work.
Edit: Buffing Stargate units would let Voidrays and Phoenix be more useful aside from harassment, zoning/scouting of the Zerg's army(and light damage), denial of creep, and lucky pickups of Infestors. Namely, being able to be used in army compositions.
A Fleet Beacon cost decrease would make Anion Pulse Crystals more accessible, as well as air upgrades past level 1, further increasing the viability of air units in PvX past the early game. Wait, remind me why zerg needs a buff for every tech path before dealing with the issue that the infester is very rarely not used in the ZvP match up? I Don't think its imposible to deal with it without messing with PvT. Because every other tech path sucks in TvZ. In PvZ this isn't too major of a problem, but going with lots of hatchery tech units with delayed T2 doesn't work from what I've seen, though it's very fun to watch IMO.
On August 08 2012 06:24 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 06:17 Jerubaal wrote:
Uh, why are we buffing broodlords? Or haven't you been watching all those games where T and P can't make enough vikings or carriers to beat the corruptors? Who...suggested buffing broodlords in last a couple of pages? He's referring to who posted at the top of the page, I think.
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On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree.
Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count.
I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs.
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On August 08 2012 07:20 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree. Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count. I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs. PF's, Hellions, and defensive Siege Tanks actually go a long way towards holding these positions.
As for building Thor/Hellion/Tank/SCV: You only need a few Siege Tanks to kill Infestors, say 2-5, Hellions and SCV's are your mineral dump, and the rest of your money will go into Thors. This only needs 3-4 bases initially, and as the game goes on you only need to take 1-2 more bases after that since it's so gas heavy, and Gas Geysers run out soooo slowly.
Raven/Viking is more for support than anything, you don't need much of that. The splash of Thors goes a long, long way. I do think that PDD is probably better than HSM.
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On August 08 2012 07:32 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 07:20 kyllinghest wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree. Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count. I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs. PF's, Hellions, and defensive Siege Tanks actually go a long way towards holding these positions. As for building Thor/Hellion/Tank/SCV: You only need a few Siege Tanks to kill Infestors, say 2-5, Hellions and SCV's are your mineral dump, and the rest of your money will go into Thors. This only needs 3-4 bases initially, and as the game goes on you only need to take 1-2 more bases after that since it's so gas heavy, and Gas Geysers run out soooo slowly. Raven/Viking is more for support than anything, you don't need much of that. The splash of Thors goes a long, long way. I do think that PDD is probably better than HSM.
Then the Zerg makes Roach/Infestor into Ultras and you just straight up lose the game.
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The problem with this "nerf your own race" concept is that it would imply there is something wrong with Terran.
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On August 08 2012 08:31 iaguz wrote:
The problem with this "nerf your own race" concept is that it would imply there is something wrong with Terran.
As a random player I was able to come up with things Zerg or Protoss had that could use nerfing, but no such thing for Terran. Perhaps a nerf to PDD's missile destruction rate? lol
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On August 08 2012 08:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 07:32 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 07:20 kyllinghest wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree. Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count. I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs. PF's, Hellions, and defensive Siege Tanks actually go a long way towards holding these positions. As for building Thor/Hellion/Tank/SCV: You only need a few Siege Tanks to kill Infestors, say 2-5, Hellions and SCV's are your mineral dump, and the rest of your money will go into Thors. This only needs 3-4 bases initially, and as the game goes on you only need to take 1-2 more bases after that since it's so gas heavy, and Gas Geysers run out soooo slowly. Raven/Viking is more for support than anything, you don't need much of that. The splash of Thors goes a long, long way. I do think that PDD is probably better than HSM. Then the Zerg makes Roach/Infestor into Ultras and you just straight up lose the game. The lack of Siege Tanks is specifically because the Zerg did not invest into a large amount of Roaches or Roach upgrades, and the Terran has scouted Hive tech and a spire.
Thor/Hellion with only 5 or so Siege Tanks is actually fine against Roach/Infestor. Burrow tech is nullified by a single Raven and turrets at expansions, Banshees put a wrench in the Zerg's Infestors forcing him to get Spire tech or trade Infestors for split up Banshees. In the main army, Banshees also do good DPS at 19.7, plus one of the major Mech openers in TvZ uses Banshee/Hellion early on.
They're also good at clearing creep.
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On August 08 2012 09:22 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:31 iaguz wrote:
The problem with this "nerf your own race" concept is that it would imply there is something wrong with Terran. As a random player I was able to come up with things Zerg or Protoss had that could use nerfing, but no such thing for Terran. Perhaps a nerf to PDD's missile destruction rate? lol I was thinking of a decrease in the footprint of the Missile Turret, making it less mass-repairable. It would help Mutalisk viability as 1 turret wouldn't be able to hold 15 mutas with surrounding auto-repair SCV's, though it would also decrease the delay in mining and would look really strange because of the thin model.
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On August 08 2012 09:26 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 08:18 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 07:32 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 07:20 kyllinghest wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree. Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count. I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs. PF's, Hellions, and defensive Siege Tanks actually go a long way towards holding these positions. As for building Thor/Hellion/Tank/SCV: You only need a few Siege Tanks to kill Infestors, say 2-5, Hellions and SCV's are your mineral dump, and the rest of your money will go into Thors. This only needs 3-4 bases initially, and as the game goes on you only need to take 1-2 more bases after that since it's so gas heavy, and Gas Geysers run out soooo slowly. Raven/Viking is more for support than anything, you don't need much of that. The splash of Thors goes a long, long way. I do think that PDD is probably better than HSM. Then the Zerg makes Roach/Infestor into Ultras and you just straight up lose the game. The lack of Siege Tanks is specifically because the Zerg did not invest into a large amount of Roaches or Roach upgrades, and the Terran has scouted Hive tech and a spire. Thor/Hellion with only 5 or so Siege Tanks is actually fine against Roach/Infestor. Burrow tech is nullified by a single Raven and turrets at expansions, Banshees put a wrench in the Zerg's Infestors forcing him to get Spire tech or trade Infestors for split up Banshees. In the main army, Banshees also do good DPS at 19.7, plus one of the major Mech openers in TvZ uses Banshee/Hellion early on. They're also good at clearing creep.
What I'm saying is that lategame TvZ is all about tech switching. Your mech composition with minimal siege tanks and a lot of Thors is never going to trade efficiently against a smart Zerg who techs properly. I'm still not even sure if you're advocating opening mech or transitioning into it. Unfortunately, mech is variously terrible on some maps.
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On August 08 2012 09:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 09:26 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 08:18 Shiori wrote:On August 08 2012 07:32 Fencar wrote:On August 08 2012 07:20 kyllinghest wrote:On August 08 2012 02:14 Fencar wrote:
Terran can make a Thor/Tank/Hellion/SCV ball which is very strong against BL/Infestor. Tanks focus down Infestors, Hellions roast Broodlings/Zerglings, Thors use their 10 range AA attack to kill Broodlords. Later on once the Zerg has enough money to make enough Broodlords to 1-shot Thors, the Terran has enough money to build Vikings and Ravens for PDD and get upgrades for air as well.
Otherwise, I agree. Good luck on taking and holding enough bases with mech vs zerg on the current mappool. Not to mention that broodlord-infestor stomps this composition hard, as it does to all terran compos that actually engages it without a crazy raven-viking count. I think going more bio oriented and taing loads of bases is the only way to go right now, and slowly move towards air. Dodge the slow zerg army until you havea ridiculous amount of hunter seekers and bcs. PF's, Hellions, and defensive Siege Tanks actually go a long way towards holding these positions. As for building Thor/Hellion/Tank/SCV: You only need a few Siege Tanks to kill Infestors, say 2-5, Hellions and SCV's are your mineral dump, and the rest of your money will go into Thors. This only needs 3-4 bases initially, and as the game goes on you only need to take 1-2 more bases after that since it's so gas heavy, and Gas Geysers run out soooo slowly. Raven/Viking is more for support than anything, you don't need much of that. The splash of Thors goes a long, long way. I do think that PDD is probably better than HSM. Then the Zerg makes Roach/Infestor into Ultras and you just straight up lose the game. The lack of Siege Tanks is specifically because the Zerg did not invest into a large amount of Roaches or Roach upgrades, and the Terran has scouted Hive tech and a spire. Thor/Hellion with only 5 or so Siege Tanks is actually fine against Roach/Infestor. Burrow tech is nullified by a single Raven and turrets at expansions, Banshees put a wrench in the Zerg's Infestors forcing him to get Spire tech or trade Infestors for split up Banshees. In the main army, Banshees also do good DPS at 19.7, plus one of the major Mech openers in TvZ uses Banshee/Hellion early on. They're also good at clearing creep. What I'm saying is that lategame TvZ is all about tech switching. Your mech composition with minimal siege tanks and a lot of Thors is never going to trade efficiently against a smart Zerg who techs properly. I'm still not even sure if you're advocating opening mech or transitioning into it. Unfortunately, mech is variously terrible on some maps. I'm advocating opening Mech. The amount of Siege Tanks I specified is specifically for sniping Infestors.
There's an amount of Tanks that isn't too many, but not too few that it won't do anything, I think that number is around 4-7. The rest of your supply should be in SCV's to repair, Hellions to roast things, 1-2 Ravens for PDD, a few Vikings (varies), and the rest in Thors.
Thors are a really, really solid unit all around at all stages of the game, sort of like the Marine or Ghost. They also do not get 'countered' by anything. Not easily, at least. Unfortunately they are slow.
As for tech switching issues, you only need to make small changes to your composition in order to cope with the Zerg. Mass Broodlord? Viking/Thor. Ultra/Ling/Bane? A couple more Tanks and a lot more Hellions. Also, you have to remember against tech switches the Zerg's army still has a build time and it also would have to engage at a PF in order to attack you, and you have sensor towers to help you reposition your army, letting you get the key composition to crush the Zerg.
The reason I said to get a minimal amount of Siege Tanks is because it's optimal against Broodlord/Infestor.
Yes, some maps are absolutely terrible for Mech.
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I see. Well, I'd go on about why mech is kinda bad, but you already said that the maps are terrible. Seriously, unless it's like Metropolis or something, or maybe certain styles on Ohana, mech is pretty easy to exploit. Roach drops are murderous, for example.
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EPT
