EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 351
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On August 08 2012 15:39 Jarree wrote: Seeker missile does friendly aoe too. I have no idea why fungal doesnt do friendly damage. It would make sense for it to do and it would increase the skillcap in z. Sure. Let's have Marines in the back shoot the Marines in the front, would definitely increase the skillcap.  Since friendly fire is a thing and all. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On August 08 2012 15:39 Jarree wrote: Seeker missile does friendly aoe too. I have no idea why fungal doesnt do friendly damage. It would make sense for it to do and it would increase the skillcap in z. As soon as Zerglings get R5 I'm totally on your side with this change. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On August 08 2012 16:28 Nourek wrote: Sure. Let's have Marines in the back shoot the Marines in the front, would definitely increase the skillcap. Since friendly fire is a thing and all. There's difference between spells cast and automated attacks. Btw siege tank is the only automated attack that does friendly aoe and it requires huge amount of skill to use them properly in late game TvZ without killing your own front line (against broodlords). Just because something has been from the beginning of the game doesnt mean it's a must. If fungal did friendly aoe from the start everyone would be ok with it. If it made z underpowered then z would have been buffed in some other area and fungal still did friendly aoe and matchups were balanced. And skillcap would be higher for z. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 08 2012 17:09 Charon1979 wrote: As soon as Zerglings get R5 I'm totally on your side with this change. That would be awesome, because then they wouldnt run into the Marines and Siege Tanks wouldnt shoot their own Marines ... Its annoying to have a significant drawback like friendly fire for only one race even though all races have AoE abilities which should have the same problem. It was ok in BW since the units werent packed as tightly, but for SC2 it seems a bit too much of a drawback, so either all AoEs have friendly fire or none do. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:17 Rabiator wrote: That would be awesome, because then they wouldnt run into the Marines and Siege Tanks wouldnt shoot their own Marines ... Its annoying to have a significant drawback like friendly fire for only one race even though all races have AoE abilities which should have the same problem. It was ok in BW since the units werent packed as tightly, but for SC2 it seems a bit too much of a drawback, so either all AoEs have friendly fire or none do. Different races work different. Most terran units are ranged and usually pretty long so friendly fire aint that big a problem. Most zerg units are either meelee or short range so aoe on friendly would kill your own units so much you never use fungal except when you go with solo infestor. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 08 2012 18:55 Jarree wrote: There's difference between spells cast and automated attacks. Btw siege tank is the only automated attack that does friendly aoe and it requires huge amount of skill to use them properly in late game TvZ without killing your own front line (against broodlords). Just because something has been from the beginning of the game doesnt mean it's a must. If fungal did friendly aoe from the start everyone would be ok with it. If it made z underpowered then z would have been buffed in some other area and fungal still did friendly aoe and matchups were balanced. And skillcap would be higher for z. You can't just say "if it is UP". Think for a second, with the average zerg range fungal would simply kill their own army more then the opponents army. It would break infestors so much its not even funny. | ||
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DidYuhim
Ukraine1905 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:26 Assirra wrote: Different races work different. Most terran units are ranged and usually pretty long so friendly fire aint that big a problem. Most zerg units are either meelee or short range so aoe on friendly would kill your own units so much you never use fungal except when you go with solo infestor. People still use Zealot/HT/Archon. I guess it's because Zealots got 5 range. Oh, wait. You get a unit that allows you get 100% kill on most of opponent's army. And doesn't have any drawbacks. I understand your bias but infestors are really not where they need to be. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:28 Assirra wrote: You can't just say "if it is UP". Think for a second, with the average zerg range fungal would simply kill their own army more then the opponents army. It would break infestors so much its not even funny. I don't believe that for a second but i guess we'll never know. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:33 DidYuhim wrote: People still use Zealot/HT/Archon. I guess it's because Zealots got 5 range. Oh, wait. You get a unit that allows you get 100% kill on most of opponent's army. And doesn't have any drawbacks. I understand your bias but infestors are really not where they need to be. Sure, lets give zerglings the same amount of hp and shields as zealots then. Zealots can actually survive a storm and the reward you get out of it is good if you engage right. Zerglings however would simply die before you kill your opponents army which is just suicide.I am not saying infestors don't need to be toned done (aoe range would be the best imo) but having aoe friendly fire when 90% of zerg units are either meelee or short range would break infestors. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
People still use Zealot/HT/Archon. I guess it's because Zealots got 5 range. Oh, wait. No, its because Zealots just "weather the storm" while lings just die. But you can try how valid your argument was when zealots and archons just had 40 HP. I bet you would consider Storm "useless". | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:59 Charon1979 wrote: No, its because Zealots just "weather the storm" while lings just die. But you can try how valid your argument was when zealots and archons just had 40 HP. I bet you would consider Storm "useless". If HTs moved at normal speed, Protoss players would be able to play Zealot/HT with 40 hp Zealots, although it would require using Charge manually. The only reasons you see them Storm their own Zealots are: a) HTs are really slow, not very good at chasing a retreating bioball, and therefore sometimes late to the party, resulting in a Storm landing 1-2 seconds too late, and hitting stuff it wasn't supposed to hit. b) Zealots have Charge, which makes them super fast at closing distance, but not nearly as fast at retreating. If you removed Charge, and instead increased the base speed bonus, keeping them out of Storm would be way easier. So yeah, as difficult as it may seem to a Zerg, who struggle with not a-moving their Infestors, it would be playable. Not that it would really change much, you'd just see Zerg players kill their own armies and complain to Blizzard about the game being too hard for them. | ||
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BuffaloSoldier
Italy11 Posts
Sure, lets give zerglings the same amount of hp and shields as zealots then. Zealots can actually survive a storm and the reward you get out of it is good if you engage right. Zerglings however would simply die before you kill your opponents army which is just suicide.I am not saying infestors don't need to be toned done (aoe range would be the best imo) but having aoe friendly fire when 90% of zerg units are either meelee or short range would break infestors. someone is seriously complaining about the possibility to replace a unit which costs 1\2 larva, 1\2 psi, 25 minerals and takes just 24 secs to spawn, after an engagement??? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 08 2012 18:55 Jarree wrote: Just because something has been from the beginning of the game doesnt mean it's a must. If fungal did friendly aoe from the start everyone would be ok with it. If it made z underpowered then z would have been buffed in some other area and fungal still did friendly aoe and matchups were balanced. It's the same principal the way it is now. Fungal did not have friendly fire and was a castable spell therefore it was designed with terrible dps. It was not really useful, so its dps got doubled and it's duration halfed. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
I saw someone bring up Overlord drops awhile ago. Now, I'm not saying that they're imbalanced, or anything, because they're very rare and there isn't enough sample to decide, but I honestly have no idea what the proper response to an Overlord drop on, say, Daybreak is. It's essentially impossible to scout, nullifies Sentries, and can't really be stopped in the same way that Protoss normally stops drops (taking out the dropship before it unloads). So I pose the question to you: what should a Protoss player do against Overlord drops? | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On August 08 2012 22:28 Shiori wrote: Giving Fungal friendly fire would make the spell extremely terrible. I'd prefer a nerf to its rooting effect. I saw someone bring up Overlord drops awhile ago. Now, I'm not saying that they're imbalanced, or anything, because they're very rare and there isn't enough sample to decide, but I honestly have no idea what the proper response to an Overlord drop on, say, Daybreak is. It's essentially impossible to scout, nullifies Sentries, and can't really be stopped in the same way that Protoss normally stops drops (taking out the dropship before it unloads). So I pose the question to you: what should a Protoss player do against Overlord drops? If you talk about dropping Infestors to Fungal the probeline the only response is to pull the Probes away in time, but then Zerg can just load up and fly away. It is really surprising to me that we have yet to see something like that. Without perfect reaction time you would lose 8-10 Probes 100% guaranteed. It's like a Stormdrop but 10x better since you can not walk out of the Storm. I guess people don't do that because Infestors got burrow movement and it is way easier to execute something like that when you can be in the probeline completely undetected.. That would be a sick strategy.. get an Overlord, drop Infestors at the edge of the base and burrow then scout the base with the Overlord and sac it so that P won't notice it's more than a sacrificial Overlord.. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On August 08 2012 22:24 BuffaloSoldier wrote: someone is seriously complaining about the possibility to replace a unit which costs 1\2 larva, 1\2 psi, 25 minerals and takes just 24 secs to spawn, after an engagement??? When said unit did absolutely nothing? yea. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
"Your race has X. My race doesn't have X. X is good. My race's counterpart should be like X." logic fails so hard. Then, you just need to go play a RTS that has a single race to play. Can we just focus on balance issue itself rather than trying to simply point out what 1 race has or doesn't have? We are playing an asymmetrically balanced game, or at least tried to be balanced asymmetrically. Your race cannot have all abilities available in game. I think it was originally about the idea to make fungal growth do friendly damage. Suggesting or approving it JUST BECAUSE storm or HSM do friendly damage goes nowhere because we are playing different races with different units. The real question is "would the change balance the current situation for the better?" In chain fungal scenarios, friendly fire means nothing as there are no Zerg units approaching the targets. There has to be another aspect of fungal growth that is more problematic. | ||
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
On August 08 2012 19:26 Assirra wrote: Different races work different. Most terran units are ranged and usually pretty long so friendly fire aint that big a problem. Most zerg units are either meelee or short range so aoe on friendly would kill your own units so much you never use fungal except when you go with solo infestor. why do you refuse to read the post i made just one site before where i initaly started that discussion about the infestor and allready pointed out what your writing now? You cannot take part of a discussion with only reading 1 or 2 threads and then write about things that allready got pointed out before you even posted | ||
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